Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: sika on April 18, 2012, 12:52:AM
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Hello All,
I'm sure that this has been covered elsewhere before so forgive me. Does anyone agree that the telephone evidence is very incriminating? Although arguments can be made to explain the sequence of telephone events that night, I would suggest that if you received a call informing you that your family were being slaughtered, you would react in a very different way to how Jeremy did. You would phone the police immediately ( I note that in earlier police interviews he did indeed claim this to be the case) and then you would dial 999 rather than the local police station. Why would you first call Julie Mugford? There is also strong evidence that puts the time of this call at a couple of minutes around 3am! I know that you can't convict a man on the strength of this but this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as I am concerned. It's very easy to nit pick and argue the finer points, especially as the police, at least initially, completely bungled their investigation, but I can't escape the overwhelming circumstantial evidence that exists in this case. I really don't want to upset anyone on this forum (too late I guess!) but your case against JB's conviction just doesn't add up to me. I would be interested to learn if you think that there is a conspiracy to keep the 'truth' covered up. If so, why? Many convictions have been overturned in the past with police authorities castigated and left highly embarrassed. There would hardly be a public outrage if he turned out to be innocent. I sincerely hope that his case is referred to the appeal court, if only in the hope that more doubters would be convinced of his guilt. I will however, be putting my life savings on them not referring this back to the courts. Again I am sorry if my views upset anyone and if my opinions are not welcome I will bugger off. :)
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Hello sika. I would have taken and still would take your position in believing he was guilty if there was so much "evidence" that just doesn't add up, particularly the two silencer scenario and Julie Mugfords testimony which changed several times as she was groomed by the police in interviews which totalled over 30 times in all.
But if you main problem is the timing of the phone calls then just ask yourself one question. Why would Jeremy Bamber phone the police in just a short space of time even if he did phone his girlfriend first? For he must have realised like you that it would probably take much longer for things to happen.
If he did it (1) Why didn't he wait a bit longer and give himself much more time and then phone at his leisure? and (2) Why would he phone the police at all? Surely if he did it then in keeping quiet would give him a much stronger alibi? For in effect he has no alibi. If he was guilty and planned it all any murderer with any common sense would surely give himself an alibi? Especially a "cunning" one as the police testified he was. (3) Note just how short a time it took police to arrive. Less that 20 minutes. I don't know about you, but when I have dialed 999 police often take much longer to arrive at a scene. So it would not have made much difference if he had dialed 999? I think we must accept that people do things in different ways. One may have done one thing and another would have behaved in an entirely different manner.
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Why should Jeremy have called 999? When Nevill called there was no indication that anyone had been shot or that it was an emergency. It was to Jeremy's credit that he had the foresight to call the police at all. Nevill was calling someone else as Jeremy tried to call back but got the engaged tone. Julie Mugford changed the time of the call and Susan Battersby [Mugford's partner in crime] claimed to have remebered the exact time of a phone call in the night from over 1 month before. She was never prosecuted for admitted cheque fraud [deal?]
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Why should Jeremy have called 999? When Nevill called there was no indication that anyone had been shot or that it was an emergency. It was to Jeremy's credit that he had the foresight to call the police at all. Nevill was calling someone else as Jeremy tried to call back but got the engaged tone. Julie Mugford changed the time of the call and Susan Battersby [Mugford's partner in crime] claimed to have remebered the exact time of a phone call in the night from over 1 month before. She was never prosecuted for admitted cheque fraud [deal?]
Of course you would phone 999.
Nevill says "your sister's gone berserk with the gun", and you say " there was no indication that anyone had been shot or that it was an emergency"?!
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Of course you would phone 999.
Nevill says "your sister's gone berserk with the gun", and you say " there was no indication that anyone had been shot or that it was an emergency"?!
Bob, yes I agree with you. This also doesn't sit well with the claim that Ralph had phoned the police too, and that he had also used the local number and not 999. It is hard to understand that both Ralph and Jeremy called the Police using a local number in those circumstances.
Unless, of course, Ralph didn't call the police at all.
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Bob
Sorry can,t agree with your theory if Sheila was ranting and raving with a gun Neville would never have anticipated that she would actually use it and he would not want to cause too much fuss calling 999.
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Bob
Sorry can,t agree with your theory if Sheila was ranting and raving with a gun Neville would never have anticipated that she would actually use it and he would not want to cause too much fuss calling 999.
Why did Ralph call the police at all then? http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police
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Bob He would be in a state of panic and had to get the situation under control. He would never have envisaged that she would shoot the whole family and he like to keep family matters close to home.
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Bob He would be in a state of panic and had to get the situation under control. He would never have envisaged that she would shoot the whole family and he like to keep family matters close to home.
So Jeremy claimed Ralph phoned his local police station which is a possibility. As a magistrate living in a small community Ralph may very well have known the local police station number and therefore it may have been an automatic reaction. Apparently Ralph had been threatened in the past and no doubt had plenty of dealings with the local police. Jeremy had been working on the harvest and out in the fields for about 14 hours for the past few days, if he was deeply asleep when the phone rang there would be a certain amount of confusion, surely? He may have followed his father's example and either known or had the number of the local police station close at hand. True, the idea of him routing through the telephone directory for the number of the local station is far fetched. Again this is all surmise. There are so many conflicting questions and answers that we cannot really know the answers, only hard facts will give us those. I would question why on earth Jeremy would choose a time when he was putting out so much energy in harvesting that he would be extrememly tired at night. The other argument could be that he chose that time because he would expect Ralph to be particularly tired and deeply asleep.
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Whilst we are being picky over the wording JB states Nevill used in the infamous alleged phone call the small thing that strikes me about it is the word "please"
Bamber, R v [2002] EWCA Crim 2912 (12 December 2002)
In the early hours of Wednesday, 7 August the appellant telephoned Chelmsford Police Station on a direct line number as opposed to the 999 emergency call system and spoke to PC West. He said, "You've got to help me. My father has just rung me and said, "Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun." Then the line went dead".
'Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun'
The politeness seems to clash with the urgency - never mind the convenience (if JB did it) of the line going dead.
I would have thought something like "Jeremy come over now. Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun" would have been more appropriate.
Totally subjective, and wildly speculative of course - but it crossed my mind!!
Never mind the thought that a healthy uninjured man would not spend time dialling and waiting for a reply (when one might not come), whilst a mad woman was loose with a gun??
The whole concept of the Nevill /JB call does not "ring" true to me ???
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Of course you would phone 999.
Nevill says "your sister's gone berserk with the gun", and you say " there was no indication that anyone had been shot or that it was an emergency"?!
If you read Jeremy's statement you would see that Nevill didn't say she had gone berserk, just that she had got the gun. A huge difference.
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Bob, yes I agree with you. This also doesn't sit well with the claim that Ralph had phoned the police too, and that he had also used the local number and not 999. It is hard to understand that both Ralph and Jeremy called the Police using a local number in those circumstances.
Unless, of course, Ralph didn't call the police at all.
It is the defence who allege that Nevill called the police.
The evidence suggests otherwise if one takes the trouble to read the telephone call log which the defence claim allegedly relates to a telephone call being made from Nevill to the police.
The 03.26 telephone call log clearly states 'Message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber, after phone went dead. Mr Bamber has a collection of shotguns and 410s'
On the subject of Jeremy's telephone call to Julie Mugford on the morning of 7th August 1985 three of Julie's flat mates who are neither police or relatives testified the telephone was heard ringing between 02.58 a.m. and 03.15 a.m.
Jeremy can be heard in recorded interviews (available on the Mirror website) stating;
When Nevill had allegedly called Jeremy the telephone went dead.
Jeremy immediately rang WHF and got the engaged tone.
Jeremy rang WHF a number of times by using the memory redial and got an engaged tone.
And that is when Jeremy rang the police.
In my opinion, in the absence of any consistent and detailed explanation from the defence in relation to the timing and sequence of the telephone calls on the morning of 7th August 1985, it would appear the purpose of the telephone calls would be to sow seeds in wrong footing the police whilst also being the creation of an alibi.
I have always stated it is the timings and sequence of the telephone calls on the morning of 7th August 1985 which hold the key to the guilt or innocence question.
It is the telephone calls which limit the suspects down to either Sheila or Jeremy.
Even Jeremy is convinced it was Sheila. However, in the eyes of the law it is Jeremy who was found guilty having accepted it was either Jeremy or Sheila.
On the subject of knowing 'local' police telephone numbers. Jeremy admits he had to look the telephone number up in the telephone directory.
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I also believe (I could be mistaken) Jeremy at one point claimed he had tried to call Witham police station prior to ringing Chelmsford police station. I think Jeremy claimed the telephone was not answered in Witham. However it was later revealed that whilst the police station was closed at that time there were actually police officers at the station. I think it was the police officers from Witham who were contacted by Chelmsford who then met Jeremy at WHF just before 04.00 a.m. (I think 03.52 a.m. from memory)
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Thanks curiousessex I wasn't sure if Jeremy had stated he looked the number up. Certainly a bit strange!
Will have to look at the telephone log again.
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Thanks curiousessex I wasn't sure if Jeremy had stated he looked the number up. Certainly a bit strange!
Will have to look at the telephone log again.
Maggie
You are most welcome.
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Hello sika. I would have taken and still would take your position in believing he was guilty if there was so much "evidence" that just doesn't add up, particularly the two silencer scenario and Julie Mugfords testimony which changed several times as she was groomed by the police in interviews which totalled over 30 times in all.
But if you main problem is the timing of the phone calls then just ask yourself one question. Why would Jeremy Bamber phone the police in just a short space of time even if he did phone his girlfriend first? For he must have realised like you that it would probably take much longer for things to happen.
If he did it (1) Why didn't he wait a bit longer and give himself much more time and then phone at his leisure? and (2) Why would he phone the police at all? Surely if he did it then in keeping quiet would give him a much stronger alibi? For in effect he has no alibi. If he was guilty and planned it all any murderer with any common sense would surely give himself an alibi? Especially a "cunning" one as the police testified he was. (3) Note just how short a time it took police to arrive. Less that 20 minutes. I don't know about you, but when I have dialed 999 police often take much longer to arrive at a scene. So it would not have made much difference if he had dialed 999? I think we must accept that people do things in different ways. One may have done one thing and another would have behaved in an entirely different manner.
I believe he set up this telephone exchange in order to demonstrate an alibi. If indeed he had committed these crimes, including the execution of those two little boys as they lay asleep in their beds, how could he have had an alibi? I believe that Jeremy's past misdemeanors show that he is capable of being cunning. It is clear that Mugford could also be accused of being cunning and her evidence is obviously tarnished as a result, but to suggest, as an earlier poster did, that Mugford's house mate was also complicit in this cover up is stretching it a little. Why would this witness lie? If my phone rang at 3am and I then later learned, probably that same day, that 5 members of a family that I had a link to, albeit a tenuous one, had been murdered, I would have been able to recall the circumstances of that phone call exactly. Furthermore, I would suggest that if most people are awoken by a telephone in the middle of the night, their initial reaction is to look at the time, especially if there is an illuminated clock by their side. On the subject of the 999 call, the response time is irrelevant, I just don't believe that your natural reaction would be to reach for the phone book rather than dial 999. Did he call the local police because he feared being identified as the 999 caller from the farmhouse, who was supposedly his father? Ironically, I note that JB is using this very 999 call as part of his defence. I quite obviously am no where near as informed as most other posters on this forum so I welcome any further opinions regarding these calls.
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Bob He would be in a state of panic and had to get the situation under control. He would never have envisaged that she would shoot the whole family and he like to keep family matters close to home.
So he didn't believe she would shoot anyone, and yet he was concerned enough to wake Jeremy up in the middle of the night and ask him to come to the farm?
Have you ever seen a close relative having a paranoid episode? I have - and believe me, if she had had a gun, I would have been out of the house within seconds and looking for a safe place from which to call the police and a duty doctor. I most certainly would not have decided to phone my only other child in order to put him in harm's way too.
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I believe he set up this telephone exchange in order to demonstrate an alibi. If indeed he had committed these crimes, including the execution of those two little boys as they lay asleep in their beds, how could he have had an alibi? I believe that Jeremy's past misdemeanors show that he is capable of being cunning. It is clear that Mugford could also be accused of being cunning and her evidence is obviously tarnished as a result, but to suggest, as an earlier poster did, that Mugford's house mate was also complicit in this cover up is stretching it a little. Why would this witness lie? If my phone rang at 3am and I then later learned, probably that same day, that 5 members of a family that I had a link to, albeit a tenuous one, had been murdered, I would have been able to recall the circumstances of that phone call exactly. Furthermore, I would suggest that if most people are awoken by a telephone in the middle of the night, their initial reaction is to look at the time, especially if there is an illuminated clock by their side. On the subject of the 999 call, the response time is irrelevant, I just don't believe that your natural reaction would be to reach for the phone book rather than dial 999. Did he call the local police because he feared being identified as the 999 caller from the farmhouse, who was supposedly his father? Ironically, I note that JB is using this very 999 call as part of his defence. I quite obviously am no where near as informed as most other posters on this forum so I welcome any further opinions regarding these calls.
Sika
In my opinion, given your no where near as informed comment, you are not too far away with what appears to be your considered conclusion.
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I believe he set up this telephone exchange in order to demonstrate an alibi. If indeed he had committed these crimes, including the execution of those two little boys as they lay asleep in their beds, how could he have had an alibi? I believe that Jeremy's past misdemeanors show that he is capable of being cunning. It is clear that Mugford could also be accused of being cunning and her evidence is obviously tarnished as a result, but to suggest, as an earlier poster did, that Mugford's house mate was also complicit in this cover up is stretching it a little. Why would this witness lie? If my phone rang at 3am and I then later learned, probably that same day, that 5 members of a family that I had a link to, albeit a tenuous one, had been murdered, I would have been able to recall the circumstances of that phone call exactly. Furthermore, I would suggest that if most people are awoken by a telephone in the middle of the night, their initial reaction is to look at the time, especially if there is an illuminated clock by their side. On the subject of the 999 call, the response time is irrelevant, I just don't believe that your natural reaction would be to reach for the phone book rather than dial 999. Did he call the local police because he feared being identified as the 999 caller from the farmhouse, who was supposedly his father? Ironically, I note that JB is using this very 999 call as part of his defence. I quite obviously am no where near as informed as most other posters on this forum so I welcome any further opinions regarding these calls.
Very good post sika, and it was this alibi that put him in the frame?
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So he didn't believe she would shoot anyone, and yet he was concerned enough to wake Jeremy up in the middle of the night and ask him to come to the farm?
Have you ever seen a close relative having a paranoid episode? I have - and believe me, if she had had a gun, I would have been out of the house within seconds and looking for a safe place from which to call the police and a duty doctor. I most certainly would not have decided to phone my only other child in order to put him in harm's way too.
A good point bob!
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A good point bob!
Yes indeed, that is a good point, however I have read that Ralph had not answered a call for help in the middle of night from Sheila's boyfriend when she was in the throes of a paranoid frenzy. They were maybe a little laid back and not too clued up in 1985. Anyway, have just received 'Rough Justice' from Amazon, on a quick glance it seems Peter Thomas Healey may have a different theory altogether. I'll report back.
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My take on this is that Ralph never asked Jeremy to contact the police, or asked him to get the police to come to the scene, Ralph didn`t need to ask Jeremy to contact the police for two basic reasons. (1) Ralph or June could have activated the panic alarm fitted inside Whf because of threats made against the Bamber family, in particular, against Ralph Bamber, who upset a local man for sending his son to prison (Ralph had to take time off from his duty as a Magistrate because of these threats, and was under round the clock police protection and monitoring). Jeremy was aware that panic alarms were fitted at the farmhouse, and the reason why these had been installed. If Ralph or the family had been shot at, he would almost certainly have activated one of the two panic buttons installed at the farmhouse. (2) Ralph called the police himself, probably to explain to the police why he or June may have activated the alarm. What is interesting is that if you accept that Ralph and Jeremy both made a separate call to the police, neither of them make mention of the fact that anyone had been shot, or wounded, or killed? What distinguishes Ralph's call to the police from Jeremy`s call to them, is the reference by Ralph to his daughter having got one of my guns, as opposed to Jeremy telling the police that his father called him saying, your sister has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly. What seems so obvious to me, is the way that details of what Jeremy told the police (3.36am) include mention of the role played by the father in the call he made to the son, by being recounted to the police by the son in his 3.36am call, yet when details of the fathers call (3.26am) are recorded, the father makes no mention of the call he made to the son, he simply recounts to the police the fact that his daughter has got hold of one of his guns. However... Additional about the son having received a call from his father are included towards the foot of this report, but these appear to have been added because Jeremy had also been in touch with the police about the same matter, but because it is recorded and mention on the bottom of the notes relating to what Ralph told police, and what jeremy told police, it allows the truth to be misrepresented.
Basically put, the detail recorded in both of these phone message logs have been constructed differently, where one is made up of information provided by one person, whilst the other is made up from two different sources...
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Yes indeed, that is a good point, however I have read that Ralph had not answered a call for help in the middle of night from Sheila's boyfriend when she was in the throes of a paranoid frenzy. They were maybe a little laid back and not too clued up in 1985. Anyway, have just received 'Rough Justice' from Amazon, on a quick glance it seems Peter Thomas Healey may have a different theory altogether. I'll report back.
Hi Maggie,
If Nevill (as I like to call him) had not answered a call for help in the middle of night from Sheila's boyfriend when she was in the throes of a paranoid frenzy, why would Nevill think JB (after a full day harvesting) would answer the phone.
I believe Nevill was quite aware of Sheilas medical condition as she had been admitted for treatment on previous occasions, and IF Neville June and Sheila had had an argument before going to bed (about fostering - as alleged by JB) Nevill would have had one eye open on Sheila and would - imo- made sure a rifle had not been left lying around (as also alleged by JB).
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Yes indeed, that is a good point, however I have read that Ralph had not answered a call for help in the middle of night from Sheila's boyfriend when she was in the throes of a paranoid frenzy. They were maybe a little laid back and not too clued up in 1985. Anyway, have just received 'Rough Justice' from Amazon, on a quick glance it seems Peter Thomas Healey may have a different theory altogether. I'll report back.
On the subject of not being 'too clued' up and given Nevill's background.
Military and hard working farmer a not too clued up way of dealing with a female who was having a frenzy could have been to give her a good hard slap to induce shock. I recall it being mentioned years ago that if someone was in an uncontrolled panic / uncontrolled rage it was a good idea to give them a slap in order to stun them and induce shock.
I am sure Nevill would have had the strength of character to do this if he had felt it necessary. However, according to the defence Nevill will have felt comfortable enough in the situation presented to him to turn his back and make a telephone call to Jeremy using an old fashioned finger dial telephone (which takes considerable time to dial numbers when compared to a modern telephone.)
Jeremy states Nevill sounded terrified when the alleged telephone call was made.
Would a terrified person take the time to dial 10 numbers on an old fashioned finger dial telephone when 3 would do (i.e. 999)??
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Yeah I know my Dad was in the RAF as well, he served in the war. I remember him teaching me how to defend myself etc when I was a teenager. Don't really think any of their self defence would have worked against a paranoid schizophrenic with a gun. However, 6'4" healthy, strong farmer, unaware his daughter would actually use the gun against her own family may have still felt enough in control. Without really knowing Nevill's character it is difficult to deduce. Are you from the particular area,curiousessex and have you ever heard of Peter Thomas Healey who lives in Tiptree and has written a book claiming the murders were by Jimmy Bell who owned a .22 rifle and who, the author claims to have seen threaten Neville and June Bamber with said rifle and throw bullets at their landrover. It may be an old disproved story, I don't know.
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My take on this is that Ralph never asked Jeremy to contact the police, or asked him to get the police to come to the scene, Ralph didn`t need to ask Jeremy to contact the police for two basic reasons. (1) Ralph or June could have activated the panic alarm fitted inside Whf because of threats made against the Bamber family, in particular, against Ralph Bamber, who upset a local man for sending his son to prison (Ralph had to take time off from his duty as a Magistrate because of these threats, and was under round the clock police protection and monitoring). Jeremy was aware that panic alarms were fitted at the farmhouse, and the reason why these had been installed. If ralph or the family had been shot at, he would have almost certainly have activated one of the two panic buttons installed at the farmhouse. (2) Ralph called the police himself, probably to explain to the police why he or june may have activated the alarm. What is interesting is that if you accept that Ralph and jeremy both made a separate call to the police, neither of them make mention of the fact that anyone had been shot, or wounded, or killed? What distinguishes Ralph's call to the police from Jeremy`s call to them, is the reference by Ralph to his daughter having got one of my guns, as opposed to Jeremy telling the police that his father called him saying, your sister has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly. What seems so obvious to me, is the way that details of what Jeremy told the police (3.36am) include mention of the role played by the father in the call he made to the son, by being recounted to the police by the son in his 3.36am call, yet when details of the fathers call (3.26am) are recorded, the father makes no mention of the call he made to the son, he simply recounts to the police the fact that his daughter has got hold of one of his guns. However... Additional about the son having received a call from his father are included towards the foot of this report, but these appear to have been added because Jeremy had also been in touch with the police about the same matter, but because it is recorded and mention on the bottom of the notes relating to what Ralph told police, and what jeremy told police, it allows the truth to be misrepresented.
Basically put, the detail recorded in both of these phone message logs have been constructed differently, where one is made up of information provided by one person, whilst the other is made up from two different sources...
Forgive me Mike but I don't quite follow. Are you saying that the panic button was activated or not? If not, are you suggesting that the reason Ralph chose to telephone the police, instead of using the button was because he didn't appreciate the true danger he was in?
Can I also press you for your thoughts on the testimony of Julie Mugford's housemates? This evidence, if believed destroys Jeremy's defence. I'm not sure that most people would enter a witness box in a murder trial and blatantly lie under oath, and for what reason? I think that after all these years, if all these people had been lying, and they would ALL have to have been, someone would have cracked by now. Has anyone from the original police investigation team spilt any beans? Lastly, sorry to go on, but why was the original detective leading the investigation, taken off the case? or did he retire? I'm sure you've been through this a million times before, but even if you could point me in the direction of relevant older posts I would be grateful.
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Trouble is sika witness statements are really unreliable. Just because her flatmates are convinced they are stating the truth it is their perception of the truth. Have you ever given a statement. It's amazing how inaccurate we can be.
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Forgive me Mike but I don't quite follow. Are you saying that the panic button was activated or not? If not, are you suggesting that the reason Ralph chose to telephone the police, instead of using the button was because he didn't appreciate the true danger he was in?
Can I also press you for your thoughts on the testimony of Julie Mugford's housemates? This evidence, if believed destroys Jeremy's defence. I'm not sure that most people would enter a witness box in a murder trial and blatantly lie under oath, and for what reason? I think that after all these years, if all these people had been lying, and they would ALL have to have been, someone would have cracked by now. Has anyone from the original police investigation team spilt any beans? Lastly, sorry to go on, but why was the original detective leading the investigation, taken off the case? or did he retire? I'm sure you've been through this a million times before, but even if you could point me in the direction of relevant older posts I would be grateful.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,618.msg13754.html#msg13754
Read here about time's given by flatmates !!
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Wow! Thanks Jon. I will digest that.
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Yeah I know my Dad was in the RAF as well, he served in the war. I remember him teaching me how to defend myself etc when I was a teenager. Don't really think any of their self defence would have worked against a paranoid schizophrenic with a gun. However, 6'4" healthy, strong farmer, unaware his daughter would actually use the gun against her own family may have still felt enough in control. Without really knowing Nevill's character it is difficult to deduce. Are you from the particular area,curiousessex and have you ever heard of Peter Thomas Healey who lives in Tiptree and has written a book claiming the murders were by Jimmy Bell who owned a .22 rifle and who, the author claims to have seen threaten Neville and June Bamber with said rifle and throw bullets at their landrover. It may be an old disproved story, I don't know.
Maggie
Yes I am from the area.
I have never heard of Peter Healey whom lives in Tiptree.
In my opinion, I do not believe a Jimmy Bell, will have conducted the killings for a number of reasons;
(i) Jimmy Bell is not mentioned in the alleged telephone call from Nevill to Jeremy.
(ii) It is Sheila who is specifically identified / referenced in both the alleged telephone call from Nevill to Jeremy and the telephone call Jeremy made to the police. I am very confident Nevill would not confuse Sheila with a Jimmy Bell.
(iii) How would a Jeremy Bell be able to gamble on a prediction Jeremy would make a telephone call to the police specifically drawing reference to Sheila.
(iv) How would a Jimmy Bell be able to gamble on a prediction that Jeremy admitting to loading the murder weapon the night before having not put it away securely.
(v) How would a Jimmy Bell be able to gamble on a prediction that Jeremy would describe a potentially emotive discussion taking place the evening before the killings regarding the possibility of Nevill and June making arrangements to have Sheila's children fostered. (These being children for which the natural father also had custody. Surely one would expect the natural father to have at least been aware of such discussion if not being actively involved in such discussions.)
(vi) If a Jimmy Bell had threatened both Nevill and June Bamber what reason would Jimmy have in killing the others?
One last point...
In my opinion, if the defence were to introduce the possibility of a Jimmy Bell being the killer it would totally undermine Jeremy's position and what he has been maintaining since convinction and before. Jeremy has admitted he believes Sheila is the killer.
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Yes I accept all that curriousessex, just got the book, just interested if you knew anything about him.
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Yes I accept all that curriousessex, just got the book, just interested if you knew anything about him.
Maggie
I am afraid I know nothing......
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Maggie
Yes I am from the area.
I have never heard of Peter Healey whom lives in Tiptree.
In my opinion, I do not believe a Jimmy Bell, will have conducted the killings for a number of reasons;
(i) Jimmy Bell is not mentioned in the alleged telephone call from Nevill to Jeremy.
(ii) It is Sheila who is specifically identified / referenced in both the alleged telephone call from Nevill to Jeremy and the telephone call Jeremy made to the police. I am very confident Nevill would not confuse Sheila with a Jimmy Bell.
(iii) How would a Jeremy Bell be able to gamble on a prediction Jeremy would make a telephone call to the police specifically drawing reference to Sheila.
(iv) How would a Jimmy Bell be able to gamble on a prediction that Jeremy admitting to loading the murder weapon the night before having not put it away securely.
(v) How would a Jimmy Bell be able to gamble on a prediction that Jeremy would describe a potentially emotive discussion taking place the evening before the killings regarding the possibility of Nevill and June making arrangements to have Sheila's children fostered. (These being children for which the natural father also had custody. Surely one would expect the natural father to have at least been aware of such discussion if not being actively involved in such discussions.)
(vi) If a Jimmy Bell had threatened both Nevill and June Bamber what reason would Jimmy have in killing the others?
One last point...
In my opinion, if the defence were to introduce the possibility of a Jimmy Bell being the killer it would totally undermine Jeremy's position and what he has been maintaining since convinction and before. Jeremy has admitted he believes Sheila is the killer.
Nice post curious, is it the same peter healey who writes about ghost and whitchcraft? i think i no where this is from?
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Trouble is sika witness statements are really unreliable. Just because her flatmates are convinced they are stating the truth it is their perception of the truth. Have you ever given a statement. It's amazing how inaccurate we can be.
Very true Maggie.....
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Very true Maggie.....
Unfortunately that is all that we have to go in certain aspects of the case.
If the witness statements of Julie's flatmates are to be dismissed then the same applies to the reliability of Jeremy's statements.....
That would leave circumstantial evidence which, in my opinion, would not be good for Jeremy.
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Nice post curious, is it the same peter healey who writes about ghost and whitchcraft? i think i no where this is from?
So do you know anything more about him Ralph? I've just bought his book on amazon and it's not really what I expected but I will read it and reach my own conclusions. He gives his address in Tiptree and just wondered if anyone local knew anything of interest about him.
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So do you know anything more about him Ralph? I've just bought his book on amazon and it's not really what I expected but I will read it and reach my own conclusions. He gives his address in Tiptree and just wondered if anyone local knew anything of interest about him.
Only that i used to work in the area and i used to stop in a farm house very similar to whf and i read about him when i was down there that's all? I thought he was from that area because it was a local paper?
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Why did Ralph call the police at all then? http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/nevill-s-call-to-police
If Jeremy wanted a strong alibi he would not have called the police at all.
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If you read Jeremy's statement you would see that Nevill didn't say she had gone berserk, just that she had got the gun. A huge difference.
That was in the police call transcript, "Daughter gone berserk with one of my guns". Sounds very like Ralph talking to the police and not Jeremy.
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Thanks curiousessex I wasn't sure if Jeremy had stated he looked the number up. Certainly a bit strange!
Will have to look at the telephone log again.
Again if Jeremy did murder his family surely his best bet in getting away with it was not to phone the police at all. By phoning the cops he would have immediately put himself in the frame, which of course is what happened. Sounds like a very incompetent murderer to me. Especially when it was mentioned by the police that he was very cunning. Somehow the two don't seem to ring true to me. He either must be one or the other?
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Again if Jeremy did murder his family surely his best bet in getting away with it was not to phone the police at all. By phoning the cops he would have immediately put himself in the frame, which of course is what happened. Sounds like a very incompetent murderer to me. Especially when it was mentioned by the police that he was very cunning. Somehow the two don't seem to ring true to me. He either must be one or the other?
Initially his telephone alibi DID work, exactly as he intended. The police never suspected him for a second. They were that convinced that what he was saying was true, that they then proceeded to completely destroy the murder scene! If he had not invented this alibi I believe there would have been enough evidence present to convince even some of those on this forum! So to an extent, his plan DID work.
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Initially his telephone alibi DID work, exactly as he intended. The police never suspected him for a second. They were that convinced that what he was saying was true, that they then proceeded to completely destroy the murder scene! If he had not invented this alibi I believe there would have been enough evidence present to convince even some of those on this forum! So to an extent, his plan DID work.
Sika , how did JB know , EP could not contact BT to check up who called who ?
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Initially his telephone alibi DID work, exactly as he intended. The police never suspected him for a second. They were that convinced that what he was saying was true, that they then proceeded to completely destroy the murder scene! If he had not invented this alibi I believe there would have been enough evidence present to convince even some of those on this forum! So to an extent, his plan DID work.
I think it is wrong to say that the police destroyed the crime scene simply on the basis of anything told to them by Jeremy.Their job is to investigate the crime scene and reach a conclusion based on any evidence.They destroyed the crime scene because to these experienced officers,the evidence suggested 4 murders and a suicide and that is what they told the inquest!
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I think it is wrong to say that the police destroyed the crime scene simply on the basis of anything told to them by Jeremy.Their job is to investigate the crime scene and reach a conclusion based on any evidence.They destroyed the crime scene because to these experienced officers,the evidence suggested 4 murders and a suicide and that is what they told the inquest!
Having been briefed before hand, when entering the house the police were expecting to find a crazed woman wielding a shotgun. Therefore, when they found the bodies including Shelia's, with a shotgun across her chest, they would naturally assume 4 murders and a suicide. As a result I don't think they would have been so careful about preserving evidence.
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Having been briefed before hand, when entering the house the police were expecting to find a crazed woman wielding a shotgun. Therefore, when they found the bodies including Shelia's, with a shotgun across her chest, they would naturally assume 4 murders and a suicide. As a result I don't think they would have been so careful about preserving evidence.
Like I said,it wasnt their job to "assume".It was their job to investigate and collect evidence.None of the evidence that they collected incriminated Jeremy.And how can you be so sure that Sheila was found with a rifle across her chest.One officer told AE that Sheila and June were found on Junes bed with a rifle between them.Mike has seen a photograph of Sheila on the bed with no rifle and another officer (may have been Collins)? queried Sheilas position on the floor with the rifle,as he does not recall seeing a rifle at all when he first saw Sheilas body.
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Initially his telephone alibi DID work, exactly as he intended. The police never suspected him for a second. They were that convinced that what he was saying was true, that they then proceeded to completely destroy the murder scene! If he had not invented this alibi I believe there would have been enough evidence present to convince even some of those on this forum! So to an extent, his plan DID work.
He had no alibi so how could he have invented it? If he hadn't said anything at all he would have been in a stronger position.
Incidentally this is what you wrote on 27th of March "Incidentally, I am completely undecided as to whether JB is guilty or not.
Now you say things like " If he had not invented this alibi"
Doesn't take much to persuade you that he is guilty does it?
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G. Well put.
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He had no alibi so how could he have invented it? If he hadn't said anything at all he would have been in a stronger position.
Incidentally this is what you wrote on 27th of March Now you say things like Doesn't take much to persuade you that he is guilty does it?
I have spent far too much of my time just lately reading through the evidence available on the internet. I have however limited most of my reading to official documentation and have largely avoided any half baked theories. I can do a lot of reading in three weeks! That earlier post you quoted was me being a little disingenuous to be honest, I wanted to get involved without alienating everyone on here. I respect the fact that people on here genuinely believe that he is innocent and I didn't want to steam in and appear rude. You are right though, I am definitely open to persuasion and not at all closed minded. Arguing the facts will convince me more than criticising my character.
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An intriguing aspect with Jeremy's guilt being so definite, to some, is why David Hammersley moved the blue bible from a cupboard in Sheila's room and put it on her body?
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An intriguing aspect with Jeremy's guilt being so definite, to some, is why David Hammersley moved the blue bible from a cupboard in Sheila's room and put it on her body?
Do you have evidence of this, and if so, please post it?
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An intriguing aspect with Jeremy's guilt being so definite, to some, is why David Hammersley moved the blue bible from a cupboard in Sheila's room and put it on her body?
IF that did happen, what would that suggest to you Campion?
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Nick, Last September I made an enquiry regarding the suicide note DRH/42 to the Consultancy Campaign team, to find out if a photograph of the said note existed. They sent back four e-mails, this is exactly what they sent
e-mail 1 Just located DRH/42. I can't currently read what it says very well but it
looks like the word "Note". It was found " on the bedside table" by DC1470. I don't believe there are any photographs of it.
e-mail 2 That should have said " on bedside table Sheila Caffel's room "
e-mail 3 Guess what we found attached
e-mail 4 Also we have found another version with a second note attached, can't be sure if both were DRH/42.
DC1470 is David Hammersley from SOCO who apparently spent three days at WHF collecting evidence. As far as I am aware, the Police do not move any potential evidence until it has been documented.
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Sika, Hello again. Your point is extremely good, as the Photographer has photographic evidence of the blue bible on the body of Sheila, but no "second note". DC1470 was Scenes Of Crime Officer, He has recorded the bible in a different part of the house, if He didn't move it then He knows who did and this needs a full explanation.
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Nick, Last September I made an enquiry regarding the suicide note DRH/42 to the Consultancy Campaign team, to find out if a photograph of the said note existed. They sent back four e-mails, this is exactly what they sent
e-mail 1 Just located DRH/42. I can't currently read what it says very well but it
looks like the word "Note". It was found " on the bedside table" by DC1470. I don't believe there are any photographs of it.
e-mail 2 That should have said " on bedside table Sheila Caffel's room "
e-mail 3 Guess what we found attached
e-mail 4 Also we have found another version with a second note attached, can't be sure if both were DRH/42.
DC1470 is David Hammersley from SOCO who apparently spent three days at WHF collecting evidence. As far as I am aware, the Police do not move any potential evidence until it has been documented.
Hi Campion
This is the document DRH/42...Hardly a suicide note...???????
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4512;image
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Patti, That is the second note, the suicide note was in the blue bible with a piece of material, the same as that found by the kitchen telephone. The bible note has the words "Love one another".
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Patti, That is the second note, the suicide note was in the blue bible with a piece of material, the same as that found by the kitchen telephone. The bible note has the words "Love one another".
Sorry Campion, but you said it was this document
You quoted: Nick, Last September I made an enquiry regarding the suicide note DRH/42 to the Consultancy Campaign team, to find out if a photograph of the said note existed. They sent back four e-mails, this is exactly what they sent
e-mail 1 Just located DRH/42. I can't currently read what it says very well but it
looks like the word "Note". It was found " on the bedside table" by DC1470. I don't believe there are any photographs of it.
That is the document I posted Campion....the one you mentioned....I know what you mean about the note in the bible....You can see a little bit of what that says....but it must have been logged under a different ref number.....
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I do believe it is the note in the bible that the Bamber team want to find....:)
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Campion there is another part to that note...Here it is and I can't read it for the life of me....
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=11775;image
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As I am picking through scant information, which is liable to mistake, the list I got the number from was the David Shaw list and that says suicide note, the bible has a different number. There is an important piece of evidence ie the suicide note, that was found by the Police and has mysteriously vanished. The "love one another"(suicide) note has a full explanation of where it was placed in the bible and what connotations could be drawn from that. I am sure that if this information is presented to Simon McKay, his people will give a far more comprehensive explanation than I ever can. Trying to get anywhere on this is the equivalent of viewing a house by looking through the keyhole. How can one note have two versions of discovery. Something stinks........
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Hi Campion
There is mistake after mistake and shows the incompetence of how the police system worked in 1985....
There was no computerised capabilities then, and all notes etc were placed in files.......Most of the evidence was destroyed, due to the case being closed....There are however thousands of documents and photo's that has not yet been handed over.....Surely they have to comply?
Yes, it stinks, because without the evidence there wont be any justice......but, then again the majority of folk thought justice had already been served....but, was it? That is the question everyone wants to know....me included. :)
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Patti, I agree with you. Something that may be worth considering is Essex Police have an evidence/museum storage facility at Southend and locked away in there are all the answers. I do not believe they destroyed all the evidence, they are lieing, like the Welsh Police lied that all the evidence regarding the Cardiff Three had been destroyed, like the evidence for Eddie Gilfoyle had been destroyed/didn't exist. All the Bamber evidence is stashed at Southend and Simon McKay must demand it's release to him.
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Campion, you would think that all these documents would have to be released if a case was subjected to an appeal. By not releasing them, they hinder a man's freedom and fight for justice; which is a human right, seen as he has pleaded not guilty for 26 years.....:)
The more they hang back the more the press will have a field day....when the time comes....
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Forgive me Mike but I don't quite follow. Are you saying that the panic button was activated or not? If not, are you suggesting that the reason Ralph chose to telephone the police, instead of using the button was because he didn't appreciate the true danger he was in?
Ralph Bamber and his family were under the supervision and protection of the police at the time of the shootings...
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Hi Patti When you think of the flimsy evidence against Jeremy most of it found by his lovely relatives who had a field day after he was convicted Justice was not done an innocent man has spent all his young years in Prison for a crime he did not commit. I rest my case.
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Ralph Bamber and his family were under the supervision and protection of the police at the time of the shootings...
Which says a lot about police protection.
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Mike I suspect this is why he phoned the local Police and not dialled 999 as quite a few have said he should have done.
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Hi Patti When you think of the flimsy evidence against Jeremy most of it found by his lovely relatives who had a field day after he was convicted Justice was not done an innocent man has spent all his young years in Prison for a crime he did not commit. I rest my case.
I agree Susan.....But I would hate to think he did do it and he is using the police's incompetent mistakes
as a tool to get free.....this i feel we have to be careful of.....even though 99% of me thinks he is innocent....and did not have a clue to what was happening around him...
I don't think he had a fair trial and, I do believe evidence was held back, his team have proved that....and, I am inclined to believe that his extended family fabricated an additional story, that helped put him away.....
I also believe that Julie was a devious woman and had arranged her fee via a solicitor prior the verdict...then buggered of to Canada out of the way.....
lol......I need a coffee...:)
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Hi Patti When you think of the flimsy evidence against Jeremy most of it found by his lovely relatives who had a field day after he was convicted Justice was not done an innocent man has spent all his young years in Prison for a crime he did not commit. I rest my case.
I can't help but feel a little uneasy when I see the extended family taking a kicking on here. I'm quite sure that, just like you and me, they do have feelings. It's just too convenient to imagine that they are cold and calculating. Not everyone is motivated by greed and money. What makes everyone think that these people are? And no I am not related! :)
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Hi Patti My honest feeling is the murders were carried out by a very disturbed person who had strong religious views (still think the 3,s mean something and the burning of Neville,s back was significant.) When you read and see what had gone on it had to be a poor deranged soul who carried out these murders. If Jeremy had carried out the murders why implicate himself with phone calls why not just go to bed and await the news.
Also if the Police knew Jeremy was guilty they would not have destroyed evidence but what they presented at the trial really did not give the Jury much to go on but at least two of them got it right.
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Mr Sika We all have our opinions and I think they had no warm feelings to either Sheila or Jeremy and that is why they always called them Cuckoo,s because they were adopted which is very cruel in itself. They saw an opportunity to implicate Jeremy and they did just that weeks after the murders. He was too trusting giving them keys to the Farm they inheritted everything and she still did tours around the house for crime writers etc I suspect for a fee. I am a very Christian person but can feel no compassion to his extended family but I do wonder how they sleep at night this is of course my own feelings and I can understand other people not agreeing with me. Hope the way I feel does not cause offence.
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Mr Sika We all have our opinions and I think they had no warm feelings to either Sheila or Jeremy and that is why they always called them Cuckoo,s because they were adopted which is very cruel in itself. They saw an opportunity to implicate Jeremy and they did just that weeks after the murders. He was too trusting giving them keys to the Farm they inheritted everything and she still did tours around the house for crime writers etc I suspect for a fee. I am a very Christian person but can feel no compassion to his extended family but I do wonder how they sleep at night this is of course my own feelings and I can understand other people not agreeing with me. Hope the way I feel does not cause offence.
Hi Susan, No you certainly don't offend me, I fully respect your decision. I don't necessarily even disagree with you. You make some very interesting points especially regarding the farmhouse tours, but are you totally certain about these 'facts'?
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Mike I suspect this is why he phoned the local Police and not dialled 999 as quite a few have said he should have done.
I never thought of that. Yes indeed, the rules change if that was so. But then again why didn't he phone his liaison officer instead of the local nick?
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I can't help but feel a little uneasy when I see the extended family taking a kicking on here. I'm quite sure that, just like you and me, they do have feelings. It's just too convenient to imagine that they are cold and calculating. Not everyone is motivated by greed and money. What makes everyone think that these people are? And no I am not related! :)
There are rules on the forum concerning the family and views are respected. But if these views turn towards verbal abuse I feel sure that admin will take steps to stop it. I think we ought to steer clear of speaking too harshly about the family. And I do believe the same rules apply to JB himself? The reason being than none of us I suspect know any of them personally and therefore cannot offer to remove the speck that may be in their eyes?
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Mike I suspect this is why he phoned the local Police and not dialled 999 as quite a few have said he should have done.
Since, in the mid 1980's I was a target criminal, subjected to surveillance techniques under development by the No.3 Regional Crime squad, including 'Ring Surveillance' used in later years to track the likes of Michael Sams, and others, as well as being a victim of telephone intercepts and all manner of surveillance tactics and devices (including the use of tracking devices which the police attached to the underside of vehicles I had access to), I am somewhat unsure, to be honest if it would be possible to dial 999 from whf, because of the panic alarm fitted at the farmhouse, linked directly into the 999 emergency system - I do not know enough to say that because the panic alarm was fitted and in use, it would not have been possible, or it would have been possible to make a 999 emergency call from the scene, because that particular line was set to work with the panic alarm...
I would be interested to learn what others views are regarding this technicality?
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Ralph Bamber and his family were under the supervision and protection of the police at the time of the shootings...
Also so was Jeremy, who lived at his cottage, 9 Head Street, Goldhanger...
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Patti, re post 56. I have never seen the second part of that note before. The top part of has " please with a three under it, it is possible to identify other letters in the rest but some of the symbols could be Arabic and as I don't come from an oil well dynasty I haven't a clue as to what they mean. For checking in out magnify at 200, lay the laptop screen flat and look at it with the keyboard at the top. I am rubbish at explaining things but if you give it a try you'll know what I mean (Eventually)
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Being in a simular situation regarding a person with serious mental illness in the family l always in the begining of the illness used to call the non emmergency number and l would look it up in the phone book everytime my son went off his head. Nowadays we call 999 straight away however my dad calls me and l call 999, no one can second guess what goes on in families they are a law unto themselves. I find 999 does NOT get anyone here quicker than going down the other route even though you are reporting someone threatening to kill someone with a knife.
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Forgive me Mike but I don't quite follow. Are you saying that the panic button was activated or not? If not, are you suggesting that the reason Ralph chose to telephone the police, instead of using the button was because he didn't appreciate the true danger he was in?
Those are your words not mine - but I will try to answer the point you are trying to make, Did Ralph, or June, activate the panic alarm which was fitted at the scene, (because of threats made against Ralph and his families life), once the attacks started - Yes, I believe one of them did activate the alarm, but that it may have or could have triggered a set of events which forced Ralph to subsequently contact the police by use of the land line, to explain why the panic alarm had been mistakenly activated previously. On this latter occasion, Ralph simply contacted the police (3:26am) to tell them why the panic alarm had been activated by mistake, namely that his daughter had got possession of one of his guns, and that she was going berserk...
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Patti, re post 56. I have never seen the second part of that note before. The top part of has " please with a three under it, it is possible to identify other letters in the rest but some of the symbols could be Arabic and as I don't come from an oil well dynasty I haven't a clue as to what they mean. For checking in out magnify at 200, lay the laptop screen flat and look at it with the keyboard at the top. I am rubbish at explaining things but if you give it a try you'll know what I mean (Eventually)
Whoosh Campion....I know nothing about symbols......or Arabic, come to that.
I'm not sure about that note....it could be the children were using her notebook to write in.....
Our Susan thinks it is connected to religion and the number 3 is symbolic....
I am slightly swayed towards Susan's idea.....
:))))) 8)
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Those are your words not mine - but I will try to answer the point you are trying to make, Did Ralph, or June, activate the panic alarm which was fitted at the scene, (because of threats made against Ralph and his families life), once the attacks started - Yes, I believe one of them did activate the alarm, but that it may have or could have triggered a set of events which forced Ralph to subsequently contact the police by use of the land line, to explain why the panic alarm had been mistakenly activated previously. On this latter occasion, Ralph simply contacted the police (3:26am) to tell them why the panic alarm had been activated by mistake, namely that his daughter had got possession of one of his guns, and that she was going berserk...
Whilst Ralph was busy phoning the police (3:26am), explaining the reasons for the panic alarm having been activated, Jeremy was trying to re-establish contact with his father, by redialling the whf telephone number, but his attempts were met by, a constant engaged tone...
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Whilst Ralph was busy phoning the police (3:26am), explaining the reasons for the panic alarm having been activated, Jeremy was trying to re-establish contact with his father, by redialling the whf telephone number, but his attempts were met by, a constant engaged tone...
Jeremy then calls the police (3:36am), and recounts what he was told by his father...
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Jeremy then calls the police (3:36am), and recounts what he was told by his father...
This helps to explain why there exists two separate and different phone message logs, one timed at 3:26am, and the other at 3:36am...
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This helps to explain why there exists two separate and different phone message logs, one timed at 3:26am, and the other at 3:36am...
The facts speak for themselves, details of Ralph's call to the police (3:26am) provides i9nfornmatiion from two different sources, whereas details of Jeremy's call refer to one version of events?
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The facts speak for themselves, details of Ralph's call to the police (3:26am) provides i9nfornmatiion from two different sources, whereas details of Jeremy's call refer to one version of events?
Can you shed any light on Nevill's positioning? From the photos I have seen on here he was found on the floor with his head in the coal scuttle and in a 'sitting' position with rigor mortis having set in. I understand that the theory is that his body was on a chair, blocking the door that the police had to break down and that from the window, at that angle/position his body would not have been visible. What I struggle with is why, a man who has just phoned for emergency assistance, then had what seems an alimighty struggle before being shot repeatedly (and possibly tortured with a burning poker or gun barrel) is doing sat in a chair? I'm not arguing guilt or innocence, I just wonder what others think about this? I guess being exhausted and shot he may have slumped in the chair and just stayed there but with the violence involved I find this hard to believe. I guess it may not be significant but it leads me to question the 'official' course of events
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Concerning the door to the kitchen.......surely it is an internal door?In the crime scene photos,the door is still intact?
I was under the impression that in order to get to the kitchen,you would enter through the external back door and then turn right through an internal door into the kitchen.
Mike,are you saying that you believe Nevills body was originally on a chair behind the external kitchen door?
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Sorry, I didn't mean physically 'break' the door, that's the wrong word. In the photo archive there are photos of an untidy and disorganised kitchen with furniture all over the place and the door leading up the stairs being open. There is another photo which has an outline of Nevill's body in front of the AGA and then there is a third photo which show a tidy kitchen from the opposite angle. The door on the far side of the AGA is closed and you can see the window. I have read here that from the window you could not possibly have seen Nevill's body by the door which is was supposedly blocking (I believe Mike agrees with this) and the police then forced entry and knocked the body off of a chair and onto the floor in front of the AGA and then quickly picked up the head and put it in the scuttle to catch the blood seeping out and used various things to hand to mop up the blood. What I don't understand is why he would have been sat in that chair in front of the door ,blocking it, if there had been such a violent struggle. We will never know and if I have any facts wrong then I am happy to be told so.
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Maybe Nevill was already slumped on the chair with exhaustion when he took the last of the shots to the head?
Sorry,I got confused.I thought Mike was saying that the door to the kitchen was the door that EP broke down.The internal one? I do believe that the internal door could,however have had to have been forced as Nevills body could very possibly have been behind it.
I certainly do not believe that any killer put Nevill in that position.His body was clearly unsettled by EP because blood had stated to run again,hence the need to surround the coal scuttle with cushions.
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Being in a simular situation regarding a person with serious mental illness in the family l always in the begining of the illness used to call the non emmergency number and l would look it up in the phone book everytime my son went off his head. Nowadays we call 999 straight away however my dad calls me and l call 999, no one can second guess what goes on in families they are a law unto themselves. I find 999 does NOT get anyone here quicker than going down the other route even though you are reporting someone threatening to kill someone with a knife.
Totally agree bookcase40. People can be too quick to judge other peoples behaviour. There are many reasons why people in particular situations behave in a certain way.
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Oh for goodness sakes....Let me tell you all....I will only say this once....hahahahahah
Nevill's body had been dead for some hours it was frozen by rigour mortise...the chair beneath him had slipped? when the raid team entered the door. Yes he could be seen from the window....at first thought, they raid team thought it was a woman...When they entered the kitchen it was poor Nevill.....
This guy's is an awful question and, if one wishes me to remove the post I will do so.....
Why in gods name was Nevill's PJ'S around his knees/chins......What a awful ugly death that man had....
In my mind he was tortured.....to the point of humiliation...:(
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Oh for goodness sakes....Let me tell you all....I will only say this once....hahahahahah
Nevill's body had been dead for some hours it was frozen by rigour mortise...the chair beneath him had slipped? when the raid team entered the door. Yes he could be seen from the window....at first thought, they raid team thought it was a woman...When they entered the kitchen it was poor Nevill.....
This guy's is an awful question and, if one wishes me to remove the post I will do so.....
Why in gods name was Nevill's PJ'S around his knees/chins......What a awful ugly death that man had....
In my mind he was tortured.....to the point of humiliation...:(
Of coarse poor Nevill had been dead for hours.The raid team did not enter the house until gone 7 in the morning.Have you any ideas as to why,the raid team waited all those hours to enter when the house was apparently silent?
And do you have any explanation as to why Sheila had blood still running from one of her wounds,if she too had been dead for hours?No sign of rigor mortis either.
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Of coarse poor Nevill had been dead for hours.The raid team did not enter the house until gone 7 in the morning.Have you any ideas as to why,the raid team waited all those hours to enter when the house was apparently silent?
And do you have any explanation as to why Sheila had blood still running from one of her wounds,if she too had been dead for hours?No sign of rigor mortis either.
Sheila on the other hand was only recently dead and was not in a state of rigor mortice. Says a lot to me. Why was there no signs that she had fought with anyone? Instead we are supposed to believe that her killer made her lie down meakly and let him shoot her calmly in the throat. In fact she was the ony one who did not show any signs of violent struggle excepting the twins who were shot whilst they slept.
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Can you shed any light on Nevill's positioning? From the photos I have seen on here he was found on the floor with his head in the coal scuttle and in a 'sitting' position with rigor mortis having set in. I understand that the theory is that his body was on a chair, blocking the door that the police had to break down and that from the window, at that angle/position his body would not have been visible.
Ralphs lifeless body was sat on a wooden chair behind an internal door which afforded a through fare between that part of the farmhouse in the immediate vicinity of an external door and downstairs office where the gun cupboard was located (on one side of the internal door) and the kitchen. The police did not break down the internal door behind which was sat Ralph`s body. The door in question opened up into the kitchen area. Police nudged open the door in question, which caused Ralph`s body to topple off the chair ...
You could only see Ralph`s body once it had been toppled from the chair behind the door, from the vantage point of someone outside the kitchen window...
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Patti As I said earlier Neville was murdered by a very disturbed tortured person and his PJ,s were around his shins to humiliate I suspect.
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Campion Yes I do think the 3 has a religious connotation the 3 was written 5 times hence 5 deaths the burns made on Neville,s back again 3 all the letters are identical virtually to a list of Swedish Proverbs and so many of them could be related to a very disturbed person with a deeply misguided religion. Just my theory I am trying to connect the 3 this is also related to the Devil.
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G I agree to a certain extent but anything I have posted re: the extended family is well documented on the internet on Jeremy,s sites and after all they helped to convict him and they did benefit from his conviction. I rest my case. I would never never wish to cause offence to anyone on the forum.
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G I agree to a certain extent but anything I have posted re: the extended family is well documented on the internet on Jeremy,s sites and after all they helped to convict him and they did benefit from his conviction. I rest my case. I would never never wish to cause offence to anyone on the forum.
That's ok Susan. Critisism is accepted. I was talking about abuse. I didn't mean we shouldn't mention them. After all we must remember they are innocent in the eyes of the law. It is we who have the reservations.
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Maybe Nevill was already slumped on the chair with exhaustion when he took the last of the shots to the head?
Sorry,I got confused.I thought Mike was saying that the door to the kitchen was the door that EP broke down.The internal one? I do believe that the internal door could,however have had to have been forced as Nevills body could very possibly have been behind it.
I certainly do not believe that any killer put Nevill in that position.His body was clearly unsettled by EP because blood had stated to run again,hence the need to surround the coal scuttle with cushions.
I guess the exhaustion is the best conclusion and that he was shot in that position fatally, we will probably never know. I didn't know his pyjamas were down but also read a strange post in another thread yesterday about Sheila's privates being exposed when found.
I have read various reasons why they didn't enter sooner including the reports of somebody being alive inside and supposedly conversing with them (although I have read that this is disputed) and also that they were waiting for more police. I have also read that if Nevill was in the chair behind that internal door (which was only forced open) then his body cannot be seen from the window. Lastly, the reasons I have read for the blood seepage after death have been that blood had pooled in the bodies and then leaked out when they were moved. I'm not suggesting I agree or disagree with anynof these assertions though, I'm just looking for debate. I think it a shame that sika has chosen to leave along with hartley as i want to hear both sides of the story. While typing I have just remembered that I read there were a pair of bloody panties in a bucket in the kitchen which is interesting with regards to sheila being 'exposed' but what i think is likely is that EP used them to mop up Nevill's blood, relised they shouldn't have used that particular garment and staged managed that to make it look like somebody had attempted to clean them
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G I really do agree with you and I admit I do carried away at times in defence of Jeremy after the things I have read about his extended family.
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ajross.........Sheilas underwear was soaking in a bucket as she had got "caught short" with her period.She was menstruating at the time of her death.
Susan........I,along with yourself and many others am in agreement regarding the relatives.I think that they acted appallingly and were interested in only one thing.
Did Sika leave of his own accord.or was he magicked away?Personally,I thought he was a moron! >:(
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Did Sika leave of his own accord.or was he magicked away?Personally,I thought he was a moron! >:(
I had a sneeky feeling he was a troll and if he stayed any longer we probably would have found that out?
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G Did not know Mr. Sika had gone when did this happen.
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I had a sneeky feeling he was a troll and if he stayed any longer we probably would have found that out?
I dont think that you were the only one that had a feeling that he was a troll.
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G Did not know Mr. Sika had gone when did this happen.
He just decided to up sticks and go for some reason. I think he took offence because someone called him a newbie or something?
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Ralphs lifeless body was sat on a wooden chair behind an internal door which afforded a through fare between that part of the farmhouse in the immediate vicinity of an external door and downstairs office where the gun cupboard was located (on one side of the internal door) and the kitchen. The police did not break down the internal door behind which was sat Ralph`s body. The door in question opened up into the kitchen area. Police nudged open the door in question, which caused Ralph`s body to topple off the chair ...
You could only see Ralph`s body once it had been toppled from the chair behind the door, from the vantage point of someone outside the kitchen window...
Disagree Mike sorry.....
If Nevill had been dead for 4 hours, his body would have rigour mortise. If like you say the police knocked his body over and his head landed in the scuttle.....Then tell me how did he bleed onto the floor? :) I was lead to believe that dead people don't bleed.
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Can you shed any light on Nevill's positioning? From the photos I have seen on here he was found on the floor with his head in the coal scuttle and in a 'sitting' position with rigor mortis having set in. I understand that the theory is that his body was on a chair, blocking the door that the police had to break down and that from the window, at that angle/position his body would not have been visible. What I struggle with is why, a man who has just phoned for emergency assistance, then had what seems an alimighty struggle before being shot repeatedly (and possibly tortured with a burning poker or gun barrel) is doing sat in a chair? I'm not arguing guilt or innocence, I just wonder what others think about this? I guess being exhausted and shot he may have slumped in the chair and just stayed there but with the violence involved I find this hard to believe. I guess it may not be significant but it leads me to question the 'official' course of events
I struggle with it too....
Phone call at 3:26......no mention of any shooting to Jeremy or the police.....No blood was found on the telephone either.
22 minutes later all the family appear to be dead........
One thing I have thought of and that is......Shelia could have well been in the kitchen with her father; uninjured at the time. She could have heard that police were outside and gone back upstairs in order not to be seen.....Then shot herself. On saying that the main bedroom window was open, but yet no one heard any shots. :)
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Disagree Mike sorry.....
If Nevill had been dead for 4 hours, his body would have rigour mortise. If like you say the police knocked his body over and his head landed in the scuttle.....Then tell me how did he bleed onto the floor? :) I was lead to believe that dead people don't bleed.
I dont think Mike has said that Nevills head landed in the scuttle?More like EP put his head there to contain the bleeding?
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I struggle with it too....
Phone call at 3:26......no mention of any shooting to Jeremy or the police.....No blood was found on the telephone either.
22 minutes later all the family appear to be dead........
One thing I have thought of and that is......Shelia could have well been in the kitchen with her father; uninjured at the time. She could have heard that police were outside and gone back upstairs in order not to be seen.....Then shot herself. On saying that the main bedroom window was open, but yet no one heard any shots. :)
This is the first I have heard that there was a window open? Please could you point me in the direction where there is evidence of this?
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He just decided to up sticks and go for some reason. I think he took offence because someone called him a newbie or something?
Sika posted in another thread that he is from Maldon and new the case as a youngster and that he has followed it ever since. He seemed to be offended at a comment directed at new members thinking they know everything. As a new member myself I can somewhat understand this but I also understand ( from having read several particularly malicious things on here) that there is some concern regarding trolls.mi'm sure in the beginning that people regarded me as a troll as I don't always seem to be fully in agreement with the innocence but I am merely trying to get opinions and develop my own understanding. Overall I find the whole experience positive but have been wary this week of what I thought was an influx of possible trolls.
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This is the first I have heard that there was a window open? Please could you point me in the direction where there is evidence of this?
Hi Tyler...The raid team statements say it was open and if you look at the main bedroom photographs, you will see that the window is open......only a few inches 3 at the most....:)
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Sika posted in another thread that he is from Maldon and new the case as a youngster and that he has followed it ever since. He seemed to be offended at a comment directed at new members thinking they know everything. As a new member myself I can somewhat understand this but I also understand ( from having read several particularly malicious things on here) that there is some concern regarding trolls.mi'm sure in the beginning that people regarded me as a troll as I don't always seem to be fully in agreement with the innocence but I am merely trying to get opinions and develop my own understanding. Overall I find the whole experience positive but have been wary this week of what I thought was an influx of possible trolls.
I want to make it clear that nobody is regarded as a troll simply because of a belief in Jeremy Bamber's guilt. Mike Tesko has always made it clear that all viewpoints are welcome on this forum, provided that they are expressed in a respectful manner. Sometimes arguments become heated, but that is to be expected when discussing a case which involves five horrific deaths, and someone who is protesting his innocence after 27 years in prison. We have had problems with trolls in the past but we have usually been able to spot them and deal with them before they have had an opportunity to disrupt the forum. I do not know if Sika was a troll. Some had suspicions as did I but his posts did not warrant action being taken. Sika deleted his own profile, for reasons which seemed rather thin, but that was his decision and not the result of any administrator action.
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ajross.........Sheilas underwear was soaking in a bucket as she had got "caught short" with her period.She was menstruating at the time of her death.
Susan........I,along with yourself and many others am in agreement regarding the relatives.I think that they acted appallingly and were interested in only one thing.
Did Sika leave of his own accord.or was he magicked away?Personally,I thought he was a moron! >:(
I have heard before about this happening to Sheila but unsure whether it was the truth or not, there was a long thread about an applicator found in the living room, I just think it a strange place to leave them.
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I want to make it clear that nobody is regarded as a troll simply because of a belief in Jeremy Bamber's guilt. Mike Tesko has always made it clear that all viewpoints are welcome on this forum, provided that they are expressed in a respectful manner. Sometimes arguments become heated, but that is to be expected when discussing a case which involves five horrific deaths, and someone who is protesting his innocence after 27 years in prison. We have had problems with trolls in the past but we have usually been able to spot them and deal with them before they have had an opportunity to disrupt the forum. I do not know if Sika was a troll. Some had suspicions as did I but his posts did not warrant action being taken. Sika deleted his own profile, for reasons which seemed rather thin, but that was his decision and not the result of any administrator action.
Thank you, and I am by no means attempting to take issue with anything, as I say, I am finding it a very positive experience and am learning lots about the case.
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I have heard before about this happening to Sheila but unsure whether it was the truth or not, there was a long thread about an applicator found in the living room, I just think it a strange place to leave them.
Can I ask where the evidence is regarding the applicator and underwear soaking in a bucket please? )
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Sika posted in another thread that he is from Maldon and new the case as a youngster and that he has followed it ever since. He seemed to be offended at a comment directed at new members thinking they know everything. As a new member myself I can somewhat understand this but I also understand ( from having read several particularly malicious things on here) that there is some concern regarding trolls.mi'm sure in the beginning that people regarded me as a troll as I don't always seem to be fully in agreement with the innocence but I am merely trying to get opinions and develop my own understanding. Overall I find the whole experience positive but have been wary this week of what I thought was an influx of possible trolls.
As it happens I too live in Maldon and knew the case from the beginning I was a bit older than JB and I thought when I heard the verdict, how on earth could the jury convict on that evidence which to my mind was not evidence. Unfortunately regarding trolls we have had particularly bad experiences and abuse from another forum which shall remain nameless. I understand people's concern that they may be regarded as trolls. So we are always cautious when people come steaming in declaring that they know everything there is to know about the case when there are old timers on the forum who have themselves made an alround study of these things. I personally regard this forum to be one of the best places to come to far research of the case and it isn't just a collection of wild theories as some seem to view it and have even mentioned before thay have made any serious posts themselves.
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According to the pathologist report....Shelia had a small amount of blood in her uterus also an intrauterine device fitted...he goes on to say that she was in the early stages of menopause.....plus a tampon fitted.
It is common that some women can be very short tempered and angry during a period or before....
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This is the first I have heard that there was a window open? Please could you point me in the direction where there is evidence of this?
You'll find it here Tyler http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,1629.0.html He says there were no lights on and that there were no windows open except for Nevill Bambers room where the window was pulled down about 3 inches. I assume it was a sash window? It is not uncommon for people to open their bedroom windows slightly to let some air in during the night.
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Can I ask where the evidence is regarding the applicator and underwear soaking in a bucket please? )
There is a whole thread about an applicator on the forum with much of it i believe posted by mike but I wait to be corrected on who it was. I believe ht is also where the underwear is mentioned
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There is a whole thread about an applicator on the forum with much of it i believe posted by mike but I wait to be corrected on who it was. I believe ht is also where the underwear is mentioned
Thank you Ajross.... ;D
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As it happens I too live in Maldon and knew the case from the beginning I was a bit older than JB and I thought when I heard the verdict, how on earth could the jury convict on that evidence which to my mind was not evidence. Unfortunately regarding trolls we have had particularly bad experiences and abuse from another forum which shall remain nameless. I understand people's concern that they may be regarded as trolls. So we are always cautious when people come steaming in declaring that they know everything there is to know about the case when there are old timers on the forum who have themselves made an alround study of these things. I personally regard this forum to be one of the best places to come to far research of the case and it isn't just a collection of wild theories as some seem to view it and have even mentioned before thay have made any serious posts themselves.
I completely agree with you. I have stated on here before that I was a kid staying at my father's in tollesbury at the time. On a completely unrelated note, we used to get something called bean rounders from Maldon, never seen them anywhere else! I Been amazed but the wealth of info and knowledge on here
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Patti I read the bucket with the bloodstained panties was found on the table near to where Neville was and the empty tampon was on a table in the lounge.
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ajross I think everything Sheila was doing and thinking was very strange and appeared to me she was being defiant towards Neville I read earlier his PJ,s were down around his shins and it has been said they were as back then rather prudish about Sheila and her sexual activities.
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Paatti, re post 77, I just read what you said so I went back to check the second note with the other writing on, the picture now displayed is one with Hammersley's signature but no second note. If I haven't misunderstood this that confirms what the Consultancy Campaign e-mailed Me last September that there are two versions ?
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Paatti, re post 77, I just read what you said so I went back to check the second note with the other writing on, the picture now displayed is one with Hammersley's signature but no second note. If I haven't misunderstood this that confirms what the Consultancy Campaign e-mailed Me last September that there are two versions ?
Hi Campion
Do you mean this one? http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4513;image
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Patti, yes that was the one I saw yesterday.
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ajross I think everything Sheila was doing and thinking was very strange and appeared to me she was being defiant towards Neville I read earlier his PJ,s were down around his shins and it has been said they were as back then rather prudish about Sheila and her sexual activities.
Fair point!
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Hi Patti I have seen the two notes again and I am convinced Sheila wrote the letters and all the 3,s and the please x3 perhaps you can tell me the other note must I stand on my head or lie on my side to read cannot understand a word. I am still on trying to find out exactly what the letters and 3,s mean as this would tell us the state of mind the person was in who wrote them.
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Fair point!
The old style pyjama's were tied with a cord, and often came loose.I find nothing sinister in this.
Plain and simple his pyjama bottoms came undone in the obvious struggle he had with the killer.
I do not believe there was any question of anything sexual about the murders. It was an anger attack, and nothing more. The question is who was the most angry.
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Buddy I had never thought it like that but it is feasible. I did read it was regarded as some kind of a statement of sheer defiance but as we know not everything we read is always correct. But take your point.
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Hi Patti I have seen the two notes again and I am convinced Sheila wrote the letters and all the 3,s and the please x3 perhaps you can tell me the other note must I stand on my head or lie on my side to read cannot understand a word. I am still on trying to find out exactly what the letters and 3,s mean as this would tell us the state of mind the person was in who wrote them.
Regarding the 'other side' of the note, i.e. the indecipherable writing, I believe it has been photographed the wrong way round.
If you think about it, the start of the lines would be next to the perforations.
To me much of it resembles shorthand.
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Sheila loved her father, and he was one of the few people who could calm her down when she was having one of her episodes.
I believe that Sheila shot June first, because she, and the twins did not like her because of her religious beliefs. " I hate this place". Colin was not happy with June either. To be remembered is June had to go to a mental institution because of a breakdown, probably brought on by the fact she could not bear children. For a women this must be devastating.
All the pictures of June shows a happy woman, but so do the pictures of Sheila, Yet both were unhappy and suffering from a mental illness.
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Buddy Do you think whilst Sheila was shooting June Neville was downstairs phoning the Police he would not be upstairs at that point Sheila would then have shot her lovely boys then downstairs to attack Neville all conjecture but it would appear to have happened in this way.
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Hi Patti I have seen the two notes again and I am convinced Sheila wrote the letters and all the 3,s and the please x3 perhaps you can tell me the other note must I stand on my head or lie on my side to read cannot understand a word. I am still on trying to find out exactly what the letters and 3,s mean as this would tell us the state of mind the person was in who wrote them.
Yes Susan, stand on your head and drink a glass of Chardonnay at the same time....lol.....
I can't read any of it....I do note the word PLANS at the top of the page.....lol Whoosh to rest...:)
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Buddy Do you think whilst Sheila was shooting June Neville was downstairs phoning the Police he would not be upstairs at that point Sheila would then have shot her lovely boys then downstairs to attack Neville all conjecture but it would appear to have happened in this way.
The finding of the bullet case on the stairs points to Nevill being shot on his way downstairs. This could have hit him in the arm [hence the blooded marks on the work surface].
It is possible he fled after June was shot first, but not fatally.
I think the twins were the last victims.
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The old style pyjama's were tied with a cord, and often came loose.I find nothing sinister in this.
Plain and simple his pyjama bottoms came undone in the obvious struggle he had with the killer.
I do not believe there was any question of anything sexual about the murders. It was an anger attack, and nothing more. The question is who was the most angry.
By the time Nevill got to the kitchen he had been shot 5 times so I doubt there much struggling, just Nevill trying to get away.
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The finding of the bullet case on the stairs points to Nevill being shot on his way downstairs. This could have hit him in the arm [hence the blooded marks on the work surface].
It is possible he fled after June was shot first, but not fatally.
I think the twins were the last victims.
Glad you mentioned that shell case on the stairs....So we have 3 upstairs, one on the staircase and 4 in the kitchen? Is that correct....
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Patti you certainly are full of Yorkshire humour but I will try it and let you know!!!
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By the time Nevill got to the kitchen he had been shot 5 times so I doubt there much struggling, just Nevill trying to get away.
No he had not been shot 5 times by then. He was shot a total of 8 times, yet casings suggest he was shot fataly in the kitchen. You really need to do a bit more reading with respect.
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3 shells cases were found in the kitchen.
I've counted 28 shells altogether.......which includes the one on the stairs...
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4070;image
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Yes Susan, stand on your head and drink a glass of Chardonnay at the same time....lol.....
I can't read any of it....I do note the word PLANS at the top of the page.....lol Whoosh to rest...:)
Where does it say 'PLANS'?
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Where does it say 'PLANS'?
If you click on the left photo it will enlarge....and you will see the word i think looks like plans....if you can't see it, I will screen shot it and show you....The text is upside down...so has you look at it, it's right at the bottom of the page....:)
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Patti was the note I cannot read even stood on my head with the one with the letters and 3,s,
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I have managed to rotate it.....See if you can see the word plans....it could be please.....Take a look and stand on your feet ...lolol
No Susan It was this one....
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If Susan has returned to an upright position. This is for right handed people, try writing the big letters from the first note with their left hand. I tried it and it seems possible that right handed person wrote them with their left hand. ps has the blood come back to your head yet Susan ?
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Campion That naughty Patti has me doing the most ridiculous things and all I feel now is dizzy!!! are you talking about the note with the letters and 3,s on it or the other one. I will try what you suggested as I am right handed.
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I have managed to rotate it.....See if you can see the word plans....it could be please.....Take a look and stand on your feet ...lolol
No Susan It was this one....
You've rotated it wrongly. The note wasn't 'upside down'. More like 'mirrored'.
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Yes that one, but don't try it doing a handstand as your neighbours are sure to put their house up for sale !!
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You could lie down reading it this way Susan....Have a rest....lol
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No he had not been shot 5 times by then. He was shot a total of 8 times, yet casings suggest he was shot fataly in the kitchen. You really need to do a bit more reading with respect.
Yes, there were 3 casings in the kitchen. 8-3=5. 4 in the bedroom and one from the top of the stairs.
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campion yes I have tried it did not work too well for me but what can you expect when you consider what I,ve been through this last hour. Was Sheila right or left handed I don,t think they were written by 6 year old mine looks like they have been written by 2 year old I will stick to being right handed.
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Patti I am confused and stick to the plan I can read but I think the other note is mirrored where is it from you never told me.
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You've rotated it wrongly. The note wasn't 'upside down'. More like 'mirrored'.
I just thought I would ware Susan out...lol If you think it is mirrored, then could it read back through a mirror....I shall try ....I'll do anything once....only once mind :)
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Now Susan has finished her aerobics or the aerobics have finished Susan, Shelia was right handed from what I could make out, unless of course someone knows different.
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Hi Campion
Do you mean this one? http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=887.0;attach=4513;image
On the top right hand corner of the illegible note there appear to be a couple of numbers visible that would seem to be a '98'
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On the top right hand corner of the illegible note there appear to be a couple of numbers visible that would seem to be a '98'
but then they could also be random sguiggles!
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Personally regarding the so called note. We can put whatever interpretation we like on it. It is all too subjective for my liking.
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Very true, there did appear to be another hand written note in the bible that is next to sheila's body in the crime scene photos although again I guess this could've been anything
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Very true, there did appear to be another hand written note in the bible that is next to sheila's body in the crime scene photos although again I guess this could've been anything
Ajross...I think every piece of evidence should be scrutinised and no matter what it;s importance is..It was there at the time....
Personally It looks like kids have tried real writing on it.....with odd letters standing out.....it would take a specialist to work it out.....Where is Susan...lol
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I agree, but I also agree that the two notes in question could be (and have been) interpreted in many ways. I believe the note with the bold writing was found in the bedroom (possibly on a bedside tabe?) was it with the other 'suiggle' note? the other note i mention was in the bible and seems to have the first word 'love' written on it
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My take on this is that Ralph never asked Jeremy to contact the police, or asked him to get the police to come to the scene, Ralph didn`t need to ask Jeremy to contact the police for two basic reasons. (1) Ralph or June could have activated the panic alarm fitted inside Whf because of threats made against the Bamber family, in particular, against Ralph Bamber, who upset a local man for sending his son to prison (Ralph had to take time off from his duty as a Magistrate because of these threats, and was under round the clock police protection and monitoring). Jeremy was aware that panic alarms were fitted at the farmhouse, and the reason why these had been installed. If Ralph or the family had been shot at, he would almost certainly have activated one of the two panic buttons installed at the farmhouse. (2) Ralph called the police himself, probably to explain to the police why he or June may have activated the alarm. What is interesting is that if you accept that Ralph and Jeremy both made a separate call to the police, neither of them make mention of the fact that anyone had been shot, or wounded, or killed? What distinguishes Ralph's call to the police from Jeremy`s call to them, is the reference by Ralph to his daughter having got one of my guns, as opposed to Jeremy telling the police that his father called him saying, your sister has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly. What seems so obvious to me, is the way that details of what Jeremy told the police (3.36am) include mention of the role played by the father in the call he made to the son, by being recounted to the police by the son in his 3.36am call, yet when details of the fathers call (3.26am) are recorded, the father makes no mention of the call he made to the son, he simply recounts to the police the fact that his daughter has got hold of one of his guns. However... Additional about the son having received a call from his father are included towards the foot of this report, but these appear to have been added because Jeremy had also been in touch with the police about the same matter, but because it is recorded and mention on the bottom of the notes relating to what Ralph told police, and what jeremy told police, it allows the truth to be misrepresented.
Basically put, the detail recorded in both of these phone message logs have been constructed differently, where one is made up of information provided by one person, whilst the other is made up from two different sources...
The truth about who was / is responsible is contained within the contents of the two timed phone message logs, 3.26am and 3.36am, in particular, how the main body of information contained in each was constructed, and the sequence of events involving, Ralph's call to Jeremy, Jeremy's attempt to re-establish contact once the line went dead, Ralph's call to the police, Jeremy's call to Julie Mugford, Jeremy`s call to the police, and the subsequent communications between Malcolm Bonnet (civilian employee) and PC West, regarding the same at the material time. What I am saying is that all the events described previously, all took place in and around the times of the two timed phone message logs, and that the contents of both are capable of helping us to unravel what actually took place, who called who, when those calls took place, and shed some light on whether or not Jeremy Bamber told the truth about receiving a call from his father in the middle of the night. If such calls ( as described earlier) took place, then of course jeremy Bamber could not possibly be responsible for killing Ralph, he could not have been the person who fought, overpowered and shot him in the kitchen, nor could Jeremy have stage managed Ralph's body in the kitchen as a murder, because Ralph had spoken to Jeremy when he made the call to him, and Ralph had spoken to the police...
The gist of what both Ralph and Jeremy told the police, is evidence of Bambers innocence...
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The truth about who was / is responsible is contained within the contents of the two timed phone message logs, 3.26am and 3.36am, in particular, how the main body of information contained in each was constructed, and the sequence of events involving, Ralph's call to Jeremy, Jeremy's attempt to re-establish contact once the line went dead, Ralph's call to the police, Jeremy's call to Julie Mugford, Jeremy`s call to the police, and the subsequent communications between Malcolm Bonnet (civilian employee) and PC West, regarding the same at the material time. What I am saying that all the events described previously, all took place in and around the times of the two timed phone message logs, and that the contents of both are capable of helping us to unravel what actually took place, who called who, when those calls took place, and shed some light on whether or not Jeremy Bamber told the truth about receiving a call from his father in the middle of the night. If such a calls ( as described earlier) took place, then of course jeremy Bamber could not possibly be responsible for killing Ralph, he could not have been the person who fought, overpowered and shot him in the kitchen, nor could Jeremy have stage managed Ralph's body in the kitchen as a murder, because Ralph had spoken to Jeremy when he made the call to him, and Ralph had spoken to the police...
The gist of what both Ralph and Jeremy told the police, is evidence of Bambers innocence...
And at what point does your theory of June Bamber being the shooter fit in here Mike?
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And at what point does your theory of June Bamber being the shooter fit in here Mike?
June Bamber being one of the shooters, not the only shooter, can be unravelled by taking into account many things, such as the condition of her bloodstained nightdress, early newspaper reports that she was in fact was responsible for shooting the others, and the fact (amongst many other things) that when Ralph spoke to Jeremy he told him either, "Sheila has got the gun", or "She has got the gun", which could have been a reference to June Bamber having possession of one of the guns, whereas, when Ralph spoke to the police, he told them "My daughter has got one of my guns"...
I think the fact that in one phone message log, where reference to "My daughter has got possession of one of my guns", as opposed to what is recorded in the other "Your sister has got the gun”, compared with what Jeremy said to the police during interview that his father could have actually said, "she has got the gun”, as opposed to, and rather than him saying "Sheila has got the gun", which throws a different light on matters, since if Ralph actually said, ”She has" as opposed to ”Sheila has”, it leaves the door wide open for June to have got possession of "THE GUN", at the point when Ralph made the call to Jeremy, whereas the matter of who had got possession of guns appeared to have escalated dramatically by the time got around to Ralph phoning the police at around 3:26am, by which stage Ralph tells police that ”My daughter has got one of my guns"?
Clearly, within the space of a few minutes, the situation at whf worsened, and Ralph may have had to deal with, his wife June having possession of "THE GUN", as well as his daughter, also having got possession of "ONE OF MY GUNS”?
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June Bamber being one of the shooters, not the only shooter, can be unravelled by taking into account many things, such as the condition of her bloodstained nightdress, early newspaper reports that she was in fact was responsible for shooting the others, and the fact (amongst many other things) that when Ralph spoke to Jeremy he told him either, "Sheila has got the gun", or "She has got the gun", which could have been a reference to June Bamber having possession of one of the guns, whereas, when Ralph spoke to the police, he told them "My daughter has got one of my guns"...
I think the fact that in one phone message log, where reference to "My daughter has got possession of one of my guns", as opposed to what is recorded in the other "Your sister has got the gun”, compared with what Jeremy said to the police during interview that his father could have actually said, "she has got the gun”, as opposed to, and rather than him saying "Sheila has got the gun", which throws a different light on matters, since if Ralph actually said, ”She has" as opposed to ”Sheila has”, it leaves the door wide open for June to have got possession of "THE GUN", at the point when Ralph made the call to Jeremy, whereas the matter of who had got possession of guns appeared to have escalated dramatically by the time got around to Ralph phoning the police at around 3:26am, by which stage Ralph tells police that ”My daughter has got one of my guns"?
Clearly, within the space of a few minutes, the situation at whf worsened, and Ralph may have had to deal with, his wife June having possession of "THE GUN", as well as his daughter, also having got possession of "ONE OF MY GUNS”?
Once you open up your minds eye to the possibility that there were two shooters, as opposed to only one, and that the two shooters in question, were / are June and Sheila, as opposed to there only having been one, where it could only have been either Sheila, or Jeremy, it becomes possible to piece together and reconstruct what took place, and how the unfolding drama panned out...
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Once you open up your minds eye to the possibility that there were two shooters, as opposed to only one, and that the two shooters in question, were / are June and Sheila, as opposed to there only having been one, where it could only have been either Sheila, or Jeremy, it becomes possible to piece together and reconstruct what took place, and how the unfolding drama panned out...
I believe that the manner with which both of the timed phone message log contents have been constructed provides the best evidence yet, that only Sheila and not Jeremy played any role in the shootings...
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KEY EVENTS:-
(1) - June Bamber in possession of ”THE GUN"
(2) - Ralph Bamber phones Jeremy, tells him ”She has got the gun (meaning June had got the gun) she has gone crazy, come quickly" - line goes dead
(3) - Jeremy tries to call farmhouse back to find out more details, he uses the redial facility on his phone, but gets a constant engaged tone, suggesting someone was using the phone at whf to talk to someone else
(4) - Ralph phones (3.26am)
(5) - Jeremy calls Julie Mugford on phone, tells her there is something wrong at the farm
(6) - Occupants of CAO7 deployed to scene
(6) - Jeremy calls police (3.36am) reports circumstances of fathers call
(7) - Malcolm Bonnet contacts PC West to inform him about Jeremys call
(8) - West already dealing with call from father, updates log with fact that Son (Jeremy) had also contacted police about message from father
(9) - Jeremy told to go to farmhouse, where he will be met by police who have already been deployed there
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KEY EVENTS:-
(1) - June Bamber in possession of ”THE GUN"
(2) - Ralph Bamber phones Jeremy, tells him ”She has got the gun (meaning June had got the gun) she has gone crazy, come quickly" - line goes dead
(3) - Jeremy tries to call farmhouse back to find out more details, he uses the redial facility on his phone, but gets a constant engaged tone, suggesting someone was using the phone at whf to talk to someone else
(4) - Ralph phones (3.26am)
(5) - Jeremy calls Julie Mugford on phone, tells her there is something wrong at the farm
(6) - Occupants of CAO7 deployed to scene
(6) - Jeremy calls police (3.36am) reports circumstances of fathers call
(7) - Malcolm Bonnet contacts PC West to inform him about Jeremys call
(8) - West already dealing with call from father, updates log with fact that Son (Jeremy) had also contacted police about message from father
(9) - Jeremy told to go to farmhouse, where he will be met by police who have already been deployed there
Contents of (3.26am) phone log Clearly has input from two different sources, Ralph contacts police about his daughter having got possession of one of his guns, which got added to later once jeremy got around to reporting to the police (3.36am) the details of his fathers call...
Details of Jeremy's call to the police (3.36am) got recorded separately...
Ralph's call got logged including reference by jeremy to the police of Ralphs call to him, whereas details of Jeremy's call to the police deal only with what Ralph said to Jeremy (as interpreted by Malcolm Bonnet and PC West)...
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Hi MIke
I think you are a fantastic person, especially with your determination of finding the truth and, giving this site a remarkable insight to statements, photo's etc........
I could go with two shooters, i really could....but do the case shells come from one gun only?
I don't believe for one minute that June handled a gun that night....Like her poor husband Nevill, her injuries were horrific. I think it is very sad to pin point the blame onto someone else, without real evidence.
Mike, you are a bit like me, there are certain things that I have thought, but could never divulge on here.
I think I will try and start a thread......I am interested in June and, I would like the views of others about a question I would like to ask.....I will check first to see if it has been covered before....:)
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Mike..........a while back you posted a crime scene photo of June.Whenever I need to refer to it I can never find it.
Is there any chance that you could add it to the picture archive for easy reference......please?
I know it is a very disturbing photograph,but there is a "warning" at the beginning of the thread.
Thank you in advance :)
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Hi Tyler
I've just posted it on a new thread....:)
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Hi Mike
I could go with two shooters, i really could....but do the case shells come from one gun only?
Talking of the batch of crime scene bullet cases?
According to the ballistic expert (MDF) he did not receive them, nor any bullets, nor any control ammunition, by which to test fire the anshulz rifle, until 20th September 1985, and his evidence was / is, that he carried out test firings of the same between 20th September 1985, and 2nd October 1985. As a result of these tests he was supposedly able to make comparison examinations of markings on bullet cases recovered from the scene, against markings on bullet cases he had loaded into the magazine of the gun, which had been fired and ejected during those tests performed between 20th September and 2nd October 1985, yet in stark contrast, Lab' documents show that comparison of marks found on bullet cases recovered from the scene, were made and carried out on dates long before 20th September 1985, thus thrusting the integrity of such bullet cases into considerable doubt...
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Mike..........a while back you posted a crime scene photo of June.Whenever I need to refer to it I can never find it.
Is there any chance that you could add it to the picture archive for easy reference......please?
I know it is a very disturbing photograph,but there is a "warning" at the beginning of the thread.
Thank you in advance :)
I am currently in Edinburgh, 'Stone of Destiny city', just finished doing a bit of research, I will be home to Yorkshire early evening. I am awaiting the arrival of a chauffeur driven Limousine to whisk me back south through the spectacular views of the scottish Border countryside, along the A701 route from Edinburgh to Moffatt (junction 15 of the M74). When I get home later this evening I will make the image you have requested available for 24 hours or so, so that will be your chance to copy it or download it. These photographs are very distressing and I think use of them on the forum has served its purpose in helping to educate everyone to the real prospect of the police stage managing the crime scene, not Jeremy (although he got blamed for it). I am considering removing some of the images for the reasons given...
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Contents of (3.26am) phone log Clearly has input from two different sources, Ralph contacts police about his daughter having got possession of one of his guns, which got added to later once jeremy got around to reporting to the police (3.36am) the details of his fathers call...
Details of Jeremy's call to the police (3.36am) got recorded separately...
Ralph's call got logged including reference by jeremy to the police of Ralphs call to him, whereas details of Jeremy's call to the police deal only with what Ralph said to Jeremy (as interpreted by Malcolm Bonnet and PC West)...
What part of the above , do you disagree with Currious ?
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Hi Tyler
I've just posted it on a new thread....:)
Thanks Patti,but I meant the whole image.I just wanted to look again where Junes body is in relation to the door.
Thank you Mike,and that is a good decision btw.
Enjoy your limo ride..................you could have invited me! ;)
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What I find rather puzzling is the fact that although police took photographs of June Bambers body lolled up against the open bedroom door, with both feet pointing into the bedroom, at least one member of the raid team described seeing Junes body with her feet pointing in the direction of the door?
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I think she was moved too Mike....it is the only explanation of why her arm is raised.
Rigor Mortis at the Crime Scene
A body goes stiff in the exact position it was in when the person died. If the body's position doesn't match up with the location where someone found it -- for example, if it's flat on its back in bed with one arm sticking straight up -- that could mean someone moved it.
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Some have pointed out the lack of injury and bloostaining to sheila 's body and nightdress as an indication that she could not have fought and overpowered Ralph during the shootings, yet they choose to ignore that Jeremy displayed no injuries either? On the other hand, if you look at the state of June and the injuries she sustained, and the manner with which her nightdress was so severely bloodstained, it remains a very distinct possibility that if anyone fought with Ralph, it was June...
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Of course she could have showered like some suggest.
Looking at Shelia's body, then at June's, one would automatically think, that June had walked around a crime scene rather than her daughter.
Looking at June, I think she may have been moved from her original death position. Who could have done that and why?
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Of course she could have showered like some suggest.
Looking at Shelia's body, then at June's, one would automatically think, that June had walked around a crime scene rather than her daughter.
Looking at June, I think she may have been moved from her original death position. Who could have done that and why?
Truth is...
Bodies of Ralph, June and Sheila, were all moved and staged by the team of training officers, and then SOC took photographs of the bodies in situ, and later relied upon the position of the bodies in these photographs as being the position police found them upon entry...
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Talking of the batch of crime scene bullet cases?
According to the ballistic expert (MDF) he did not receive them, nor any bullets, nor any control ammunition, by which to test fire the anshulz rifle, until 20th September 1985, and his evidence was / is, that he carried out test firings of the same between 20th September 1985, and 2nd October 1985. As a result of these tests he was supposedly able to make comparison examinations of markings on bullet cases recovered from the scene, against markings on bullet cases he had loaded into the magazine of the gun, which had been fired and ejected during those tests performed between 20th September and 2nd October 1985, yet in stark contrast, Lab' documents show that comparison of marks found on bullet cases recovered from the scene, were made and carried out on dates long before 20th September 1985, thus thrusting the integrity of such bullet cases into considerable doubt...
That's right and the evidence bags had been opened and resealed
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Talking about bullets and casings.....I noticed that on the pathologist reports for June, that the entry wounds were not all the same size...How can this be if there was only one gun used at the time?
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Talking about bullets and casings.....I noticed that on the pathologist reports for June, that the entry wounds were not the size...How can this be if there was only one gun used at the time?
There were several entry wounds to the victims which were larger than the .22 inch diameter of the bullets used. Mike has argued that this supports the proposition that a larger calibre weapon may have been used, possibly one of the police weapons. My own view is that entry wounds may be larger than the bullet which caused them. The Eley subsonic hollowpoint bullets used were designed to expand or fragment and depending upon the angle of contact, the range and the nature of the impact point it would be possible to see different sizes of entry wound caused by the same weapon. In addition there is a suggestion that some of the ammunition used may have been Pargeter's high velocity copper jacketed ammunition rather than the Eley subsonic hollowpoint ammunition normally used with the Bamber rifle.
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There were several entry wounds to the victims which were larger than the .22 inch diameter of the bullets used. Mike has argued that this supports the proposition that a larger calibre weapon may have been used, possibly one of the police weapons. My own view is that entry wounds may be larger than the bullet which caused them. The Eley subsonic hollowpoint bullets used were designed to expand or fragment and depending upon the angle of contact, the range and the nature of the impact point it would be possible to see different sizes of entry wound caused by the same weapon. In addition there is a suggestion that some of the ammunition used may have been Pargeter's high velocity copper jacketed ammunition rather than the Eley subsonic hollowpoint ammunition normally used with the Bamber rifle.
Hi Ngb
You sound like a firearms expert.....Would the entry wounds be larger or smaller with distance?
Or would they be larger or smaller, depending which area of the body was shot?
It is possible two guns where used.....because for example.....Say the poor little ones were shot first, that is 9 gone leaving 2 and 1 in the whatever you call it.....
The killer would have to re-load........could have gone down the stairs across from the twins room....but why risk that? Other members of the family could have woken up....
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There were several entry wounds to the victims which were larger than the .22 inch diameter of the bullets used. Mike has argued that this supports the proposition that a larger calibre weapon may have been used, possibly one of the police weapons. My own view is that entry wounds may be larger than the bullet which caused them. The Eley subsonic hollowpoint bullets used were designed to expand or fragment and depending upon the angle of contact, the range and the nature of the impact point it would be possible to see different sizes of entry wound caused by the same weapon. In addition there is a suggestion that some of the ammunition used may have been Pargeter's high velocity copper jacketed ammunition rather than the Eley subsonic hollowpoint ammunition normally used with the Bamber rifle.
Hi Ngb
You sound like a firearms expert.....Would the entry wounds be larger or smaller with distance?
Or would they be larger or smaller, depending which area of the body was shot?
It is possible two guns where used.....because for example.....Say the poor little ones were shot first, that is 9 gone leaving 2 and 1 in the whatever you call it.....
The killer would have to re-load........could have gone down the stairs across from the twins room....but why risk that? Other members of the family could have woken up....
The main difference is the area of body shot. If the area is soft tissue there is less of a tendency for the bullet to expand. If on the other hand an area with bone underneath the skin is shot the bullet is likely to expand immediately. Distance could made a slight difference - a contact shot may result in a slightly larger entry wound. The angle is more important. A shot striking the point of impact at an angle is likely to cause a larger entry wound.
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The main difference is the area of body shot. If the area is soft tissue there is less of a tendency for the bullet to expand. If on the other hand an area with bone underneath the skin is shot the bullet is likely to expand immediately. Distance could made a slight difference - a contact shot may result in a slightly larger entry wound. The angle is more important. A shot striking the point of impact at an angle is likely to cause a larger entry wound.
Gotcha! Thank you NGB1066....:)
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Of course she could have showered like some suggest.
Looking at Shelia's body, then at June's, one would automatically think, that June had walked around a crime scene rather than her daughter.
Looking at June, I think she may have been moved from her original death position. Who could have done that and why?
Unless as it has been suggested the police played with the bodies, photographing then in different positions?
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Unless as it has been suggested the police played with the bodies, photographing then in different positions?
Hi G
I can't imagine why they would do such a thing, for what purpose, do you suppose?.....
One thing is for sure June must have been moved, and there is photographic evidence to say both daughter and mother were moved.....
June's arm is stiff and sticking out, that tells any crime scene officer that she had been moved after rigour mortise. :)
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Hi G
I can't imagine why they would do such a thing, for what purpose, do you suppose?.....
One thing is for sure June must have been moved, and there is photographic evidence to say both daughter and mother were moved.....
June's arm is stiff and sticking out, that tells any crime scene officer that she had been moved after rigour mortise. :)
Hi Patti, It was suggested a while back that some photographs showed that the bodies had been photographed in different positions as a matter of horseplay by the SOC officers. The are apparently photographs in existence and have been a matter of complaint which showed police officers urinating against a greenhouse and one was on the roof waving etc.
I can't be sure but it was also suggested that the bodies had been photographed in different sexual positions by some police officers? And this was part the reason for the cover-up and why the police were very reluctant and resisted so much against releasing all the photos. And when some were finally released some of them had been cut out of the reel and have not been accounted for.
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Watch this space later on tonight for an update about all the photographs which were taken in connection with this case, and how over 358 pictures were deliberately withheld and concealed, and the reasons for such concealment...
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Hi Patti, It was suggested a while back that some photographs showed that the bodies had been photographed in different positions as a matter of horseplay by the SOC officers. The are apparently photographs in existence and have been a matter of complaint which showed police officers urinating against a greenhouse and one was on the roof waving etc.
I can't be sure but it was also suggested that the bodies had been photographed in different sexual positions by some police officers? And this was part the reason for the cover-up and why the police were very reluctant and resisted so much against releasing all the photos. And when some were finally released some of them had been cut out of the reel and have not been accounted for.
Hi G
For the life of me I would never understand and can't even contemplate that SOC officers' would do such a thing and, if they did then they should be made accountable for it....but, I doubt it very much.
I hope that people doubt that those sort of accusations and rumours are unfounded.
The problem we have here G is that we are only privy to what we are shown or should I say available. If we were privy to ALL case documents, we might see another kettle of fish....lol
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Bob, had Neville ever witnessed Sheila having a 'paranoid episode' prior to the murders? She often phoned him in the middle of the night claiming to be all sorts of people eg Joan of Arc, leader of cnd etc.
Where does this info come from egap?
Dr Ferguson's witness states Neville had a positive/calming affect on her. Freddie's wit stat states when Nevill was called (night) re Sheila having a 'paranoid episode' he said he was unable to come (Tolleshunt to Maida Vale) until the following morning. When he arrived Freddie said he cldn't believe the change in her ie she became completely 'normal'. This leads me to believe Nevill was unaware that Sheila presented any real risk to herself or others otherwise he wld have made an emergency visit or taken some other action. Also Dr F stated that had Nevill had discussed with Sheila the fostering of the twins this wld have changed her view of Nevill from a secure mentor to a hostile figure.
Why did Neville call Jeremy then if he didn't believe she represented a real danger, and Neville was the one who had previously had a positive/calming effect on Sheila?
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Hi G
For the life of me I would never understand and can't even contemplate that SOC officers' would do such a thing and, if they did then they should be made accountable for it....but, I doubt it very much.
I hope that people doubt that those sort of accusations and rumours are unfounded.
The problem we have here G is that we are only privy to what we are shown or should I say available. If we were privy to ALL case documents, we might see another kettle of fish....lol
Patti,some people believe that bodies were moved etc when a raid training team went into the house after the original raid.There is more information regarding this somewhere on the forum.
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Total number of photographs taken in connection with this case was 581, these were kept in a photographed album which became known as THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM, and was kept under lock and key in ACC (O) Peter Simpsons office safe at DHQ...
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Total number of photographs taken in connection with this case was 581, these were kept in a photographed album which became known as THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM, and was kept under lock and key in ACC (O) Peter Simpsons office safe at DHQ...
Once Jeremy Bamber was arrested, police created another album which was designed to fool Jeremy Bamber and the courts into believing that police had only taken 223 photographs, which they duly made into a separate album, which became known as THE MASTER COPY ALBUM...
Bambers solicitors were invited to attend police Headquarters to view the entire contents of THE MASTER COPY ALBUM, and order as many photographs as they needed from it for use in Bambers defence. But they were unaware of the existence of the other SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM containing all 581 pictures, or the fact that some 358 had been edited out and not formed part of THE MASTER COPY ALBUM...
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Once Jeremy Bamber was arrested, police created another album which was designed to fool Jeremy Bamber and the courts into believing that police had only taken 223 photographs, which they duly made into a separate album, which became known as THE MASTER COPY ALBUM...
Bambers solicitors were invited to attend police Headquarters to view the entire contents of THE MASTER COPY ALBUM, and order as many photographs as they needed from it for use in Bambers defence. But they were unaware of the existence of the other SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM containing all 581 pictures, or the fact that some 358 had been edited out and not formed part of THE MASTER COPY ALBUM...
By the time the case came to court in October 1986, police had created another album for use during the trial, and for the benefit of the jury, this album became known as THE COURT ALBUM, and consisted of only 50 preselected photographs taken from THE MASTER COPY ALBUM, aforementioned...
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In a nutshell, here are the basic facts regarding these three photographic albums:-
(1) - SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM has 581 photographs
(2) - THE MASTER COPY ALBUM has 223 photographs (358 missing from (1) above)
(3) - THE COURT ALBUM has 50 photographs (531 missing from (1) above, and 173 missing from (2) above)
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In a nutshell, here are the basic facts regarding these three photographic albums:-
(1) - SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM has 581 photographs
(2) - THE MASTER COPY ALBUM has 223 photographs (358 missing from (1) above)
(3) - THE COURT ALBUM has 50 photographs (531 missing from (1) above, and 173 missing from (2) above)
So...
by the time the matter came before the court to be tried, at Chelmsford Crown coourt on 2nd October 1986, Bambers solicitors, the court and the jury, were not aware that another 358 photographs existed which were capable of undermining a fundamental part of the prosecutions case, namely that Jeremy Bamber had stage managed the scene to make it look like Sheila had shot and killed the others, and then taken her own life by shooting herself dead on the bedroom floor with use of the family owned rifle?
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So...
by the time the matter came before the court to be tried, at Chelmsford Crown coourt on 2nd October 1986, Bambers solicitors, the court and the jury, were not aware that another 358 photographs existed which were capable of undermining a fundamental part of the prosecutions case, namely that Jeremy Bamber had stage managed the scene to make it look like Sheila had shot and killed the others, and then taken her own life by shooting herself dead on the bedroom floor with use of the family owned rifle?
Pause and think about that for a moment...
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What was fair about deceiving everybody into accepting that only 223 photographs had been taken, and in only making 50 preselected ones taken from these 223, to the court for the jury to take note of, and so that they could refer to these to help them make up their minds if Jeremy Bamber had indeed killed everyone, including his sister, and that afterwards he had stage managed the scene (in keeping with the images made available to the court) to fool everyone into thinking Sheila was responsible, when all along he was?
It was a significantly unfair advantage which the prosecution had when the trial commenced, in the knowledge that over 531 photographs were kept back from the jury who were responsible for deciding whether or not Bamber had stage managed the crime scene as alleged...
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What was fair about deceiving everybody into accepting that only 223 photographs had been taken, and in only making 50 preselected ones taken from these 223, to the court for the jury to take note of, and so that they could refer to these to help them make up their minds if Jeremy Bamber had indeed killed everyone, including his sister, and that afterwards he had stage managed the scene (in keeping with the images made available to the court) to fool everyone into thinking Sheila was responsible, when all along he was?
It was a significantly unfair advantage which the prosecution had when the trial commenced, in the knowledge that over 531 photographs were kept back from the jury who were responsible for deciding whether or not Bamber had stage managed the crime scene as alleged...
Lets get the facts right...
The prosecution did not alert Bambers solicitors to the existence of the other 358 photographs which had been taken, or that THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM containing a total of 581 photographs even existed, let alone that 358 of these had been withheld, under pii, or otherwise...
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Bamber and his legal team should have been provided with a list of information prior to the commencement of the case at trial, setting out the evidence in two categories, (1) Disclosed material, and (2) non disclosed material. Amongst this should have been (3) reference to material which the crown intended not to disclose because it was being withheld under pii...
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Bamber and his legal team should have been provided with a list of information prior to the commencement of the case at trial, setting out the evidence in two categories, (1) Disclosed material, and (2) non disclosed material. Amongst this should have been (3) reference to material which the crown intended not to disclose because it was being withheld under pii...
My understanding is that any such material which was being proposed to be withheld under the pii rule, could still be made available to the defence for use or reference during any subsequent trial or court proceedings, by order of a court. Providing that it could be shown or demonstrated that the material in question might tend to prove or establish a persons innocence? Well, in my opinion, if all 581 photographs had been made available to Bamber and his legal team, there can be little doubt that they would have been able to seriously undermine a fundamental part of the Prosecutions case, which focussed upon Bamber having killed everyone, of he stage managing the crime scene, and making it appear that Sheila was responsible, that she had then gone on to take her own life, and that he had stage managed the scene so as to fool police into accepting Sheila was the guilty party, when all along he was...
If all 581 photographs had been made available to Bambers legal team before commencement of the trial, the outcome would almost certainly have been very much different, because the crown would not have got away with fooling the jury into accepting that Bamber had stage managed the scene, since photographic evidence existed to show it was the police themselves who were responsible for doing that / this...
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In a nutshell...
The photographic material available and part of this case, was manipulated by the police / crown so that a false scenario was created to allow Jeremy Bamber to be prosecuted for these murders...
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In a nutshell...
The photographic material available and part of this case, was manipulated by the police / crown so that a false scenario was created to allow Jeremy Bamber to be prosecuted for these murders...
Now...
every single one of you, and everybody, or anybody, who believes in the rule of law, and fairness, has to ask yourselves this question, "How would you feel, if police or the crown had all this (581 pictures) photographic evidence / material, which would tend to undermine the case being brought against you (for whatever reason that case might be), and it was being kept from you or those representing your interests, and kept from the jury who would be charged with deciding the outcome of the proceeding which have been brought against you"?
Imagine if the penalty for getting convicted of some offence or other and that the consequences of getting convicted could mean that you would have to spend the rest of your life locked up behind bars, but this could have been avoided if 358 photographs which the police had taken, were not only being withheld, but you had not been told these were being withheld, or that they even existed - how would you feel?
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Now...
every single one of you, and everybody, or anybody, who believes in the rule of law, and fairness, has to ask yourselves this question, "How would you feel, if police or the crown had all this (581 pictures) photographic evidence / material, which would tend to undermine the case being brought against you (for whatever reason that case might be), and it was being kept from you or those representing your interests, and kept from the jury who would be charged with deciding the outcome of the proceeding which have been brought against you"?
Imagine if the penalty for getting convicted of some offence or other and that the consequences of getting convicted could mean that you would have to spend the rest of your life locked up behind bars, but this could have been avoided if 358 photographs which the police had taken, were not only being withheld, but you had not been told these were being withheld, or that they even existed - how would you feel?
This was / is the position which Jeremy Bamber found himself in back in October 1986, when his case fell to heard by a jury...
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If you do not officially declare that you took 358 additional photographs, many which were taken at the scene whilst police were messing around with bodies and exhibits, it has to be treated as a criminal offence, in that it amounts to a serious deception to seek to conceal them. The proper protocols which are / were in place to lawfully withhold such material if its content was so sensitive that it ought not to be made public knowledge, were not applied in this particular case. Instead, police deliberately got PC David Bird, to produce a false record, so as to deliberately hide and conceal for the fact that THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM consisting of 581 pictures, existed at all...
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If you do not officially declare that you took 358 additional photographs, many which were taken at the scene whilst police were messing around with bodies and exhibits, it has to be treated as a criminal offence, in that it amounts to a serious deception to seek to conceal them. The proper protocols which are / were in place to lawfully withhold such material if its content was so sensitive that it ought not to be made public knowledge, were not applied in this particular case. Instead, police deliberately got PC David Bird, to produce a false record, so as to deliberately hide and conceal for the fact that THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM consisting of 581 pictures, existed at all...
Let us look at what they got PC David Bird (SOC) to do to carry off this deception:-
They got him to produce two photographic schedules, suggesting that these were the only photographs taken in connection with this case, one schedule related the THE MASTER COPY ALBUM containing all 223 photographs, and the other THE COURT ALBUM containing 50 p-reselected photographs taken from the first...
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Let us look at what they got PC David Bird (SOC) to do to carry off this deception:-
They got him to produce two photographic schedules, suggesting that these were the only photographs taken in connection with this case, one schedule related the THE MASTER COPY ALBUM containing all 223 photographs, and the other THE COURT ALBUM containing 50 p-reselected photographs taken from the first...
To date...
no schedule has ever been produced showing the transitional arrangements surrounding how the 581 photographs contained in THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM, relate to the 223 photographs contained in the MASTER COPY ALBUM, or how they in turn relate to the 50 photographs contained in THE COURT ALBUM?
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To date...
no schedule has ever been produced showing the transitional arrangements surrounding how the 581 photographs contained in THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM, relate to the 223 photographs contained in the MASTER COPY ALBUM, or how they in turn relate to the 50 photographs contained in THE COURT ALBUM?
Most of the missing 358 photographs help to prove, show or establish that police themselves stage managed the crime scene, and blamed Jeremy during his trial (and since) for doing what they had done, and did...
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According to police and the prosecution - police did not move or touch or disturb anything at all, except for Detective Inspector Ronald Cook who had to admit that he moved Sheila's hand so that PC Bird could photographs some bloodied marks on the front lower part of her nightdress...
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Let us look at what they got PC David Bird (SOC) to do to carry off this deception:-
They got him to produce two photographic schedules, suggesting that these were the only photographs taken in connection with this case, one schedule related the THE MASTER COPY ALBUM containing all 223 photographs, and the other THE COURT ALBUM containing 50 p-reselected photographs taken from the first...
and which, if any, still exists? I'm not too hot on legal proceedings but if it can proved that the photos were dealt with in this way would it stll be possible to rule it as some form of mistrial and have him acquitted?
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According to police and the prosecution - police did not move or touch or disturb anything at all, except for Detective Inspector Ronald Cook who had to admit that he moved Sheila's hand so that PC Bird could photographs some bloodied marks on the front lower part of her nightdress...
Well...
many of the missing 358 photographs prove the police did move many things, not only Sheila's hand...
They moved bodies of the victims, they moved exhibits like the gun, and bullet cases, and furniture around - and whilst they were doing this, and afterwards, they took photographs...
There is no doubt at all police stage managed the crime scene, yet Jeremy Bamber stands convicted of having done so, despite photographs existing which are in police possession which prove he did not...
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Mike - Do you know which file it would have been that you saw when you went to see Ewen Smith as discussed in another thread, and saw the photo of Sheila on the bed?
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and which, if any, still exists? I'm not too hot on legal proceedings but if it can proved that the photos were dealt with in this way would it stll be possible to rule it as some form of mistrial and have him acquitted?
The two schedules (MASTER COPY and COURT ALBUM) which were created for the purpose of this deception do still exist, yes...
I have posted them elsewhere on the forum, but I will endeavour to post them here later today, along with anything I can find about PC Birds (SOC) role in all of this, including his court transcript and witness statements. I feel sure that Jeremy's current legal team could get the case taken back to the court of appeal based on this argument alone...
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Well...
many of the missing 358 photographs prove the police did move many things, not only Sheila's hand...
They moved bodies of the victims, they moved exhibits like the gun, and bullet cases, and furniture around - and whilst they were doing this, and afterwards, they took photographs...
There is no doubt at all police stage managed the crime scene, yet Jeremy Bamber stands convicted of having done so, despite photographs existing which are in police possession which prove he did not...
I have only seen the few photographs available and can see that Sheila's body was moved, I pointed it out to my wife (who thinks I am becoming a little bit obsessed) and she spotted it immediately and has no interest in the case! I am assuming though that 'The senior investigating officers album' no longer exists, it would be foolish of them to have kept it for just the reasons we would all like to see it.
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Mike - Do you know which file it would have been that you saw when you went to see Ewen Smith as discussed in another thread, and saw the photo of Sheila on the bed?
Yes, of course I do - the albums were headed with the title "SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM of photographs, Strictly Confidential..."
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I have only seen the few photographs available and can see that Sheila's body was moved, I pointed it out to my wife (who thinks I am becoming a little bit obsessed) and she spotted it immediately and has no interest in the case! I am assuming though that 'The senior investigating officers album' no longer exists, it would be foolish of them to have kept it for just the reasons we would all like to see it.
Well, THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM certainly existed back in 2004, when I saw it at Ewen Smith's office in Birmingham, and later when I saw an edited version of the same when I visited offices in London once the case was transferred to GDS. There is also now available a typed schedule produced by COLP as part of their 1991 / 92 investigation which proves that more than 223 photographs were taken. Then of course there are the negatives which the CCRC have and which Jeremy's current legal team have now got access to, albeit some of the negatives are missing, or have been cut up and have disappeared off the face of the earth...
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Although the official view is that police officers did not move, touch or disturb anything at all at the scene, except for DI Cook moving Sheila's hand to allow PC Bird (SOC) to take pictures of a bloodied impression on the front lower part of Sheila's nightdress, the stark truth of the matter is that police moved almost everything and anything - in particular they moved Sheila's body from the bed to the floor, they moved June Bambers body from the bed to the floor, and they moved Ralph Bambers body from a sitting position on a chair behind an internal kitchen door onto the kitchen floor, and they put his heavily bloodstanied head in to a coal bucket...
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Although the official view is that police officers did not move, touch or disturb anything at all at the scene, except for DI Cook moving Sheila's hand to allow PC Bird (SOC) to take pictures of a bloodied impression on the front lower part of Sheila's nightdress, the stark truth of the matter is that police moved almost everything and anything - in particular they moved Sheila's body from the bed to the floor, they moved June Bambers body from the bed to the floor, and they moved Ralph Bambers body from a sitting position on a chair behind an internal kitchen door onto the kitchen floor, and they put his heavily bloodstanied head in to a coal bucket...
Police moved the gun off the body, back onto the body, off the body and back onto the body, and PC Bird (SOC) then took pictures...
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Police moved the gun off the body, back onto the body, off the body and back onto the body, and PC Bird (SOC) then took pictures...
Members of the six man firearms raid team viewed pictures taken by PC Bird, when they attended a de - brief later that evening, and they were encouraged by pressure applied by senior officers to adopt the positions of the bodies involving Ralph, June and Sheila, which Bird had later photographed the positions of, as the positions the bodies had actually been found in, upon entry into the premises...
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Well, THE SENIOR INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ALBUM certainly existed back in 2004, when I saw it at Ewen Smith's office in Birmingham, and later when I saw an edited version of the same when I visited offices in London once the case was transferred to GDS. There is also now available a typed schedule produced by COLP as part of their 1991 / 92 investigation which proves that more than 223 photographs were taken. Then of course there are the negatives which the CCRC have and which Jeremy's current legal team have now got access to, albeit some of the negatives are missing, or have been cut up and have disappeared off the face of the earth...
I'm demonstrating my overall ignorance of the case as I am still trawling through stuff but who is/was Ewen Smith? and would there not be any other record of the senior investigating officers album? If you look at two photos of Sheila with the gun on her body the most striking thing to me is actually the state of the bed! And to some degree i think this may back up the body on the bed theory as somebody could have absentmindedly tided it after taking the body off the bed. It is I believe an instinctive action for many to throw the duvet or covers back over the bed.
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I'm demonstrating my overall ignorance of the case as I am still trawling through stuff but who is/was Ewen Smith? and would there not be any other record of the senior investigating officers album? If you look at two photos of Sheila with the gun on her body the most striking thing to me is actually the state of the bed! And to some degree i think this may back up the body on the bed theory as somebody could have absentmindedly tided it after taking the body off the bed. It is I believe an instinctive action for many to throw the duvet or covers back over the bed.
Ewan Smith former solicitor of JB , now working at the CCRC !!
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Thank you, like I say, I'm trying to get through lots of stuff on here but am time limited! If he had these photos then could he not just testify under oath?
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Thank you, like I say, I'm trying to get through lots of stuff on here but am time limited! If he had these photos then could he not just testify under oath?
Sorry, ho wignorant of me, given his change of employer maybe this is not likely!
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Although the official view is that police officers did not move, touch or disturb anything at all at the scene, except for DI Cook moving Sheila's hand to allow PC Bird (SOC) to take pictures of a bloodied impression on the front lower part of Sheila's nightdress, the stark truth of the matter is that police moved almost everything and anything - in particular they moved Sheila's body from the bed to the floor, they moved June Bambers body from the bed to the floor, and they moved Ralph Bambers body from a sitting position on a chair behind an internal kitchen door onto the kitchen floor, and they put his heavily bloodstanied head in to a coal bucket...
Hi Mike
I don't believe Nevill's body was moved; for the simple fact his body was in rigour mortise. his arms were in the correct position. If he had died in the chair, his arms would have been by his side. To move him forward would mean his arms would have stayed by his side and his arm clearly show that they had flopped to towards the floor.
In my opinion, looking at the photo evidence on here; June's body had definitely been moved and it's obvious to the eye that she had been moved for her arm stuck out, thus showing that it was not the position she had died in. The photo evidence shows that at one point she was in bed and at some point she was stood up, for good length of time. June also had injuries a v shape on her breast and bruising to her legs.
Shelia's body is in an awkward position. Looking at the photo. It appears she was turned over, for photo evidence suggests this and so does the blood flow. Also the gun had been moved, which suggests they had at one point removed the gun else where and then placed it back.
Mike is there any more photo's available? :)
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I agree with you Patti, Nevill's body wasn't moved. The amount of bleeding around the coal scuttle is also an indication that that was where he died.
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I agree with you Patti, Nevill's body wasn't moved. The amount of bleeding around the coal scuttle is also an indication that that was where he died.
Hi lebaleb......I would like to know who put that towel there and why were the seat covers stacked up...like someone had laid on them? :)
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Hi Mike
I don't believe Nevill's body was moved; for the simple fact his body was in rigour mortise. his arms were in the correct position. If he had died in the chair, his arms would have been by his side. To move him forward would mean his arms would have stayed by his side and his arm clearly show that they had flopped to towards the floor.
In my opinion, looking at the photo evidence on here; June's body had definitely been moved and it's obvious to the eye that she had been moved for her arm stuck out, thus showing that it was not the position she had died in. The photo evidence shows that at one point she was in bed and at some point she was stood up, for good length of time. June also had injuries a v shape on her breast and bruising to her legs.
Shelia's body is in an awkward position. Looking at the photo. It appears she was turned over, for photo evidence suggests this and so does the blood flow. Also the gun had been moved, which suggests they had at one point removed the gun else where and then placed it back.
Mike is there any more photo's available? :)
I think your wrong about Ralph's body - it was definitely on the chair behind the door before the police pushed it open, and I believe there was another chair directly in front of his body, which he got toppled over on top of it when police pushed open the internal door...
You are not reading the available crime scene photographs correctly...
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I think your wrong about Ralph's body - it was definitely on the chair behind the door before the police pushed it open, and I believe there was another chair directly in front of his body, which he got toppled over on top of it when police pushed open the internal door...
You are not reading the available crime scene photographs correctly...
Mike I do believe the chair had been moved, there is no doubt about that, but the body stayed still...That is my opinion...It stayed still because of rigour mortise...the body was too stiff to move. The chair on the other hand did move...His arm are the clue Mike....If he was sat up in the chair, it would mean his arms would have been straight out in front of him......which is very unlikely.....you don't die with your arms stuck out in front of you, they fall to your side......
This is why, I believe he was in the position he died in....only the chair moved....and not his body.
Look at all the blood.....below the scuttle....no dead man bleeds like that after 4 or more hours....:)
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Mike I do believe the chair had been moved, there is no doubt about that, but the body stayed still...That is my opinion...It stayed still because of rigour mortise...the body was too stiff to move. The chair on the other hand did move...His arm are the clue Mike....If he was sat up in the chair, it would mean his arms would have been straight out in front of him......which is very unlikely.....you don't die with your arms stuck out in front of you, they fall to your side......
This is why, I believe he was in the position he died in....only the chair moved....and not his body.
Look at all the blood.....below the scuttle....no dead man bleeds like that after 4 or more hours....:)
I think you miss the point about the second chair...
What we have are two chairs behind the internal door, with Ralph Bamber sat on the rear one against the door, and his arms resting on the back of the other wooden chair in front of him. When police pushed open the door, and toppled his body over, he fell forward over the top of the second chair and police placed his head into the coal bucket..
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Hi lebaleb......I would like to know who put that towel there and why were the seat covers stacked up...like someone had laid on them? :)
I believe there is evidence on the forum that explains that the police used the towel and cushions to curtail the flow of blood after Nevill's dead body was knocked off of the chair with the force of entry. I'm sure one of the senior members could point you in the direction of this evidence and/or discussion
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I believe there is evidence on the forum that explains that the police used the towel and cushions to curtail the flow of blood after Nevill's dead body was knocked off of the chair with the force of entry. I'm sure one of the senior members could point you in the direction of this evidence and/or discussion
That seems a bit unconventional doesn't it in a crime scene?
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That seems a bit unconventional doesn't it in a crime scene?
It certainly does to me, I'm only trying to provide an answer to a question i have asked and was given the same answer. my next question after that was, but surely the blood had congealed and another member pointed out that the blood had probably pooled in the wounds
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It certainly does to me, I'm only trying to provide an answer to a question i have asked and was given the same answer. my next question after that was, but surely the blood had congealed and another member pointed out that the blood had probably pooled in the wounds
I should have thought so if he had been dead that long. As I am assured that dead people don't bleed? I think in that same light the photo of Sheila apparently shows blood still flowing from her wounds?
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and the answer I got on here from soembody that asked that very same thing was that it was likely that the blood had pooled in her wound and seeped out when the police moved her body. All of that is complete speculation though and it is unlikely we will ever know why there was blood around Nevill's head or leaking from Sheila's throat/mouth
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and the answer I got on here from soembody that asked that very same thing was that it was likely that the blood had pooled in her wound and seeped out when the police moved her body. All of that is complete speculation though and it is unlikely we will ever know why there was blood around Nevill's head or leaking from Sheila's throat/mouth
But the police insist that they didn't move her body.
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Well, I guess various people disagree with that going from what I've read but I am no expert. Mike suggests the body was on the bed, other people have said the body was turned on it's side. All I can say is that the body seems to have been moved in the photos that I have looked at. Do you not believe that the bodies were moved at all by the police then?
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Well, I guess various people disagree with that going from what I've read but I am no expert. Mike suggests the body was on the bed, other people have said the body was turned on it's side. All I can say is that the body seems to have been moved in the photos that I have looked at. Do you not believe that the bodies were moved at all by the police then?
Oh I defineitely think the bodies were moved and I agree with Mike that Sheila and Junes bodies were on the bed before being moved by the police. We have his testimony that he has seen a picture showing just that and is backed up by Mrs, Ann Eaton's statement. I was just stating what the police said.
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I think you miss the point about the second chair...
What we have are two chairs behind the internal door, with Ralph Bamber sat on the rear one against the door, and his arms resting on the back of the other wooden chair in front of him. When police pushed open the door, and toppled his body over, he fell forward over the top of the second chair and police placed his head into the coal bucket..
Hi Mike I'm sorry but i do disagree on that. Dead men don't bleed after 4 maybe 5 hours. After such an horrific death rigour mortise would have set in rather quickly, also his age is another factor.
How I see it, might be different from yourself, but I see it that the chair Nevill was sitting on got kicked from underneath him, his body stayed in situ....
I do believe June was definitely moved, no doubt about that...unless she had cradle the dog underneath her arms before rigour mortise set in....
Shelia, was deffo on her side....blood flow from each wound flows to the right...not down but to her right side.......the gun was also move, there is clear evidence of that......
I wont budge Mike, I am a Yorkshire lass......baaaaaaaaaaaaaaa :)
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Oh I defineitely think the bodies were moved and I agree with Mike that Sheila and Junes bodies were on the bed before being moved by the police. We have his testimony that he has seen a picture showing just that and is backed up by Mrs, Ann Eaton's statement. I was just stating what the police said.
I can see little or no room for doubt that the bodies were moved I also believe that Mike has seen a photograph of Sheila's body on the bed.
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I can see little or no room for doubt that the bodies were moved I also believe that Mike has seen a photograph of Sheila's body on the bed.
Totally agree with you G. Mike has a huge job on there.
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I can see little or no room for doubt that the bodies were moved I also believe that Mike has seen a photograph of Sheila's body on the bed.
I have read that he has and have no reason not to believe him, I agree with everything that 'G' said, on the face of it it seemed that we were having a diagreement but i don't dispute any of his posts, i was merely triying to offer the explanations that were given to me when i asked similarly questions about the blood. The answer that I was given (i.e that blood had pooled in the mouths of the bodies) doesn't particularly ring true but regardless of that the bodies were clearly moved.
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I can see little or no room for doubt that the bodies were moved I also believe that Mike has seen a photograph of Sheila's body on the bed.
Hi Chochok
I don't doubt Mike has seen the photographs at all. What does bother me is why these photo's have not
been brought forward and used in defence?
And, why aren't people giving statements that they exist? :))
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Hi Chochok
I don't doubt Mike has seen the photographs at all.
What does bother me is why these photo's have not
been brought forward and used in defence?
And, why aren't people giving statements that they exist? :))
Hi Patti,
I wonder if these photographs have not been brought forward and statements have not been made about them for the very same reason that thousands of documents, including photographs, have not been brought forward or statemen made in respect of them: because they are held under PII secrecy orders and anyone producing them or detailing the information contained in them commits an offence.
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Hi Patti,
I wonder if these photographs have not been brought forward and statements have not been made about them for the very same reason that thousands of documents, including photographs, have not been brought forward or statemen made in respect of them: because they are held under PII secrecy orders and anyone producing them or detailing the information contained in them commits an offence.
Hi There Chockok
One wonders then. If they are protected under PII, how these documents were to be viewed at all? I could understand that if they were viewed and spoken about that someone would be in breech of the law.......Does that mean that photographs of Shelia on the bed should not be mentioned on a public forum?
Is that the same under the DPA? On the 30 year rule? Or in some cases 100 year rule. :)
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June Bamber being one of the shooters, not the only shooter, can be unravelled by taking into account many things, such as the condition of her bloodstained nightdress, early newspaper reports that she was in fact was responsible for shooting the others, and the fact (amongst many other things) that when Ralph spoke to Jeremy he told him either, "Sheila has got the gun", or "She has got the gun", which could have been a reference to June Bamber having possession of one of the guns, whereas, when Ralph spoke to the police, he told them "My daughter has got one of my guns"...
I think the fact that in one phone message log, where reference to "My daughter has got possession of one of my guns", as opposed to what is recorded in the other "Your sister has got the gun”, compared with what Jeremy said to the police during interview that his father could have actually said, "she has got the gun”, as opposed to, and rather than him saying "Sheila has got the gun", which throws a different light on matters, since if Ralph actually said, ”She has" as opposed to ”Sheila has”, it leaves the door wide open for June to have got possession of "THE GUN", at the point when Ralph made the call to Jeremy, whereas the matter of who had got possession of guns appeared to have escalated dramatically by the time got around to Ralph phoning the police at around 3:26am, by which stage Ralph tells police that ”My daughter has got one of my guns"?
Clearly, within the space of a few minutes, the situation at whf worsened, and Ralph may have had to deal with, his wife June having possession of "THE GUN", as well as his daughter, also having got possession of "ONE OF MY GUNS”?
If Ralph Bamber phoned JB to tell him his mother had got "THE GUN" he would never had said SHE HAS GOT THE GUN" for two reasons. There were two females in the house, which they both knew, saying "she" would not identify who had the gun. Secondly, no way would Ralph Bamber say "SHE" when speaking to his son about his mother!
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If Ralph Bamber phoned JB to tell him his mother had got "THE GUN" he would never had said SHE HAS GOT THE GUN" for two reasons. There were two females in the house, which they both knew, saying "she" would not identify who had the gun. Secondly, no way would Ralph Bamber say "SHE" when speaking to his son about his mother!
Excellent points, Janet.
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Excellent points, Janet.
thank you. i haven't been on for a week so i am sure there will be more to follow! lol