Jeremy Bamber Forum
JEREMY BAMBER CASE => Jeremy Bamber Case Discussion => Topic started by: campion on April 01, 2012, 04:10:PM
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When the CCRC decision is made on an appeal, the Police, CPS and entire Justice System are going to get the much overdue reassessment of how evidence is presented. The fact that after so much time the safety of a conviction for Murder can be undone on the simplest of reason, the diameter of the dead persons wound did not match the Police's version of events demonstrates that the process of prosecution is so flawed, a new system has to be introduced. Essex police with all their cunning involved in cover ups, witness intimidation, fabricating evidence and arrogance are going to get the biggest wake up call they will ever get. Because of the way in which they sought a prosecution for Murder, which was successful until this latest revelation involving McKay Law, it beggars belief that Jeremy's defence Counsel never asked to have the same tests carried out before the original trial. Because of the test, how ever many times it is conducted the result will remain identical, a silencer attachment leaves a different size contact burn than a non silenced weapon. Making the argument that suicide was not possible because of the firearms extended length implausible even to the dimmest of dim Judges. Whatever new theory is hypothesised over to say Jeremy killed Shelia, Hitman, Milkman, Flowerpotman or any body else man on the evidence that Essex Police presented to Chelmsford Crown Court stating a silencer was attached to the Anshutz making it impossible to have been suicide is now destroyed. Even if accomplices are conjured up, and new prosecution evidence sought, double jeopardy rules this out. A trial for Murder must be as watertight as a Ducks Arse or the CCRC will need the office space of Manhattan. The case for the prosecution of Jeremy Bamber for the Murder of his family is Lost.
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Now the dust is settling after the Williams-Thomas documentary the silence from the guilty camp is almost deafening !!!
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there taking there time on this decision they were supposed to have decided by now.
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nugnug, they can take all the time they like, they cannot change the fact that there was no silencer on the gun when the fatal shot to Shelia was fired. This has become a " Humpty Dumpty " scenario and no matter how hard they try they can never put it back together again. The longer this goes on the more they will look like a " Humpty Dumpty Numpty " !!!!!!
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A very good way of putting it Campion!
I expect in a lot of ways many people would like Jeremy let out of prison quietly so this will go away but that is impossible
There is no easy way out of this one for the police, the ccrc, the judicial system and the relatives
The cover ups have been gigantic but there are so many good honest people who will not let this stop now
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Now the dust is settling after the Williams-Thomas documentary the silence from the guilty camp is almost deafening !!!
They might be relying upon the blood / DNA evidence re the silencer and Julie Mugford's testimony remaining intact.
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Roch that may be their reason, but whatever is said the results of the test remain, there was no silencer on the gun that killed Shelia.... Mike Tesko has Won !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Roch that may be their reason, but whatever is said the results of the test remain, there was no silencer on the gun that killed Shelia.... Mike Tesko has Won !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On slight hitch is that the CCRC are yet to refer Campion. I'm pretty sure the defence now have more new stuff but couldn't get it in time for the last deadline. There is also the mountain of other anomalies that was being persued prior to SMcK taking over. If the CCRC do not refer, they will possibly face judicial review. The defence feel that the statutory test for referral has been provided. If a referral is made, I think the floodgates will open.
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Where does the system go from here, this evidence has discredited the former Home Secretary Michael Howard, who ruled Jeremy should never be released. The Prime Minister David Cameron who has said Publicly Jeremy should never be released. The City of London Police who found no evidence of wrong doing in favour of Essex Police. The Crown Prosecution Service who sent this for trial. Justice Drake who instructed a Jury that on the Silencer evidence alone Jeremy should be found Guilty. Jeremy's lawyers who somehow missed this vital piece of evidence, they must have seen the Autopsy Report. The Appeal Court Judges who have maintained the conviction for Murder was safe. In fact the only people that can be excluded are the Criminal Cases Review Commission as they are now looking at the evidence presented to them by McKay Law. Four Million people watched a test for gunshot contact burn on ITV 1 that proved no silencer was used on the fatal shot to Shelia. Jeremy who was nearly killed in Prison where he should never have been based on the silencer evidence, he was disinherited by his relatives and Demonised by the Media as a Child Killer. How does anyone begin to Compensate an Individual for that. On the Silencer Evidence alone an entire System has just been Crushed !!!!
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What marks are left if a rifle with a sound moderator fitted is fired into the neck whilst in contact with the skin, or almost in contact with the skin, but not pressed against the skin?
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Bigger ones....
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Maybe the day will dawn on the relatives when they realise Sheila was responsible and they will start putting in place an excercise where they will begin to return to Jeremy everything that rightly belongs to him that Neville worked so very hard for and that he would have left for his son
Or maybe
If Jeremys conviction is overturned they will fight it all the way
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Reader, I think the only way for people to make up their own mind is to watch the Williams-Thomas test on YouTube...
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Maybe the day will dawn on the relatives when they realise Sheila was responsible and they will start putting in place an excercise where they will begin to return to Jeremy everything that rightly belongs to him that Neville worked so very hard for and that he would have left for his son
Or maybe
If Jeremys conviction is overturned they will fight it all the way
I wonder if it had been one of their own that had been convicted would they hold their belief in them being guilty so tenaciously?
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Grahame, I wonder what Peter Suthehurst ( Photographic Specialist ) said when he watched the documentary and do you think they had it on at Full Sutton Prison !!!
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Given the level of concern about the convictions, both historic and current, I do wonder whether the relatives fight too hard to maintain the guilty image of Bamber. It just doesn't add up for me. It's like they're fighting as if their lives depended upon it. I know of no other similar case were surviving relatives of victims have waged such a staunch defence of the convictions in the face of mounting doubts.
There's a rat away somewhere.... the question is, where?
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Grahame, I wonder what Peter Suthehurst ( Photographic Specialist ) said when he watched the documentary and do you think they had it on at Full Sutton Prison !!!
Jeremy watched it in his cell.
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Jeremy watched it in his cell.
I hope he was not as disappointed as I was. It did nothing for me in thinking that Jeremy was not gulty.
It was poorly presented, and added nothing to Bambers case.
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Is an appetite developing to really stick the boot in to the Prosecution and maintain the advantage !!!
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I hope he was not as disappointed as I was. It did nothing for me in thinking that Jeremy was not gulty.
It was poorly presented, and added nothing to Bambers case.
It showed the watching public , that the gun had no silencer fitted , it even showed you the test's to show this , what more you want JM sitting there saying ' i told a fib or two ' ?
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It showed the watching public , that the gun had no silencer fitted , it even showed you the test's to show this , what more you want JM sitting there saying ' i told a fib or two ' ?
I disagree with you. It did not show that the silencer was not fitted. In any case the silencer was a red herring, and should be discarded. The silencer was contaminated evidence, and it was a disgrace that it was ever used.
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I disagree with you. It did not show that the silencer was not fitted. In any case the silencer was a red herring, and should be discarded. The silencer was contaminated evidence, and it was a disgrace that it was ever used.
But it was used , as the main plank of prosecution's case !! Why don't you believe it never showed that the silencer was not fitted ?
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Martin Wallace, who became the Suffragan (flying) Bishop of Selby in 2003 was formerly the Arch Deacon of Colchester from 1997. Pocklington, where Full Sutton Jail is located is a mere 16 miles from Selby. As June Bamber was religious, it won't look to good if her adopted son who was convicted of her Murder, and the rest of his immediate family, on fabricated charges trumped up by a person who used to sing in the Police Choir at St Botolphs, Colchester, is then released on appeal due to being innocent !
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I think the only way for people to make up their own mind is to watch the Williams-Thomas test on YouTube...
You mean the tests by Boyce. In those, the rifle, with and without sound moderator, was pressed against the pigskin.
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You mean the tests by Boyce. In those, the rifle, with and without sound moderator, was pressed against the pigskin.
Reader, it may have been more accurate if he had described the tests as facilitated by Williams-Thomas.
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Yes Reader the pigskin tests replicating a contact gunshot wound.
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More accurately, wounds resulting from contact and pressure, but not contact without pressure.
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The rifle without a silencer was in contact with the skin. Leaving a flash burn that is different to one with a silencer. This would show up at an Autopsy and subsequent Coroner's Inquest. But may have been withheld under PII !
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All this talk of pig skin and pie is making me feel hungry....mmmmm crackling. :)
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More accurately, wounds resulting from contact and pressure, but not contact without pressure.
Is pig hide thicker than human skin? I would have thought so. Perhaps the pressure applied to pig hide in such experiments is due to this difference?
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Still no response from the Guilty camp, are they recalibrating their Roch Index. What is wrong, why can't they discredit the gun tests. Sika, what was it you put, "clutching at straws". This is turning into a rout. Where does the Guilty argument stand on the Silencer evidence. Come on you weasels, justify it's credibility. What about the Aga surround scratchmarks made by the silencer that was on the gun that was used to kill Shelia. Why the silence !!!!!!
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This could be the icing for Gillian's cakes. Jeff Edwards, the Crime Reporters Association President and former News of the World Crime Reporter tells the Leveson Inquiry a couple of weeks before the MWT documentary, that a News of the World editor told him to "put some inducements out there" to get stories. A few weeks later the same editor told him "You should essentially be bribing more Police Officers". Edwards left the News of the World in1985, he observed an "element in there, who had a tendency towards questionable unethical behaviour". That tendency manifested itself in a variety of ways he said, with some reporters appearing to play " fast and loose with the truth". Jeff Edwards was telling this to Robert Jay QC, otherwise known as the "Pied Piper" 16th March at the Leveson Inquiry.
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humpty dumpty was pushed ( by the EP )
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Haughton, Do you think EP would appreciate an Easter Egg that looks Like Humpty Dumpty ?
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humpty dumpty was pushed ( by the EP )
They would have got all the kings horses and all the kings men to carry out a training exercise and restage Humpty to make it look like suicide.
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I am sure they could frame Jeremy for it if Julie was offered some cash !!!
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I think the EP blamed it on the CIA
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And it would give Millers theory about Jeremy carrying out the cunning deed dressed in a wetsuit extra
weight, because he would have been covered in egg white. Then they could bring in his mothers bicycle as the getaway vehicle. Only flaw with this is by the time he had peddled back to Goldhanger he would have resembled a Baked Alaska.
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Stan Jones could go round to Jeremy's cottage and arrest him for murder, then whisk him off in a panda car.
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Essex Police ruled out Julie's claim of the involvement of a hitman as half baked, unlike Gillians cakes which are always baked to perfection.
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This is the job description of a Chief Medical Examiner. A Chief Medical Examiner is the Official In Charge
of investigating unexpected,sudden,suspicious or violent deaths. He seeks to establish the cause of death. He is also responsible for providing pathological and toxicological services necessary to assist the investigation of deaths that raise Public Inquiry. The Chief Medical Examiner takes up a supervisory role, overseeing the work of Medical Examiners. Three of these concluded a silencer was not used on Shelia.
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And it would give Millers theory about Jeremy carrying out the cunning deed dressed in a wetsuit extra
weight, because he would have been covered in egg white. Then they could bring in his mothers bicycle as the getaway vehicle. Only flaw with this is by the time he had peddled back to Goldhanger he would have resembled a Baked Alaska.
Well whenever I wore a wetsuit I felt very restricted whilst on land and quickly got out of breath through any kind of exertion like running. The reason for that is that a wetsuit holds the body very tightly.
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Grahame, After these latest tests that imply that no silencer was on the rifle when Shelia shot herself, and that on last years submissions regarding the silencers actual date of discovery and role in this awful tragedy. As far as I can see the wetsuit/bicycle theory and other ludicrous propositions made by the Police and endorsed by the CPS are now in tatters. The forensic evidence for the two silencers becomes null and void. The Crime Scene Album produced for the original trial is worthless and going on from this, as this was all part of the evidence against Jeremy, I am positive that the handswabs have either been forged or taken after the Police washed Shelia's hands. The case against Jeremy is falling apart at the seams by the day and yet still the guilty camp can't come up with any response (even a grunt) that can shore up the safety of the conviction.
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Grahame, After these latest tests that imply that no silencer was on the rifle when Shelia shot herself, and that on last years submissions regarding the silencers actual date of discovery and role in this awful tragedy. As far as I can see the wetsuit/bicycle theory and other ludicrous propositions made by the Police and endorsed by the CPS are now in tatters. The forensic evidence for the two silencers becomes null and void. The Crime Scene Album produced for the original trial is worthless and going on from this, as this was all part of the evidence against Jeremy, I am positive that the handswabs have either been forged or taken after the Police washed Shelia's hands. The case against Jeremy is falling apart at the seams by the day and yet still the guilty camp can't come up with any response (even a grunt) that can shore up the safety of the conviction.
I think several posters have backed off a bit for reasons not case or evidence related.
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Grahame, After these latest tests that imply that no silencer was on the rifle when Shelia shot herself, and that on last years submissions regarding the silencers actual date of discovery and role in this awful tragedy. As far as I can see the wetsuit/bicycle theory and other ludicrous propositions made by the Police and endorsed by the CPS are now in tatters. The forensic evidence for the two silencers becomes null and void. The Crime Scene Album produced for the original trial is worthless and going on from this, as this was all part of the evidence against Jeremy, I am positive that the handswabs have either been forged or taken after the Police washed Shelia's hands. The case against Jeremy is falling apart at the seams by the day and yet still the guilty camp can't come up with any response (even a grunt) that can shore up the safety of the conviction.
I just think it's nearly run it's course, I'm interested in the case but bored of the arguments (none case related).
My personal opinion is that your post above contains a whole host of sweeping unsubstantiated conclusions, however my opinion isn't really worth a damn and you are obviously more than entitled to form your own opinion.
I think that you have been taken in by some defence propaganda and that it will become apparent when the CCRC announce their decision. I understand that you have a different view, but I have no interest in trying to change yours or anybody else's view.
It's not that I can't come up with a response, (I could probably come up with a compelling argument that black is actually blue), it's just simply that I don't feel that I need to respond, or even grunt.
The CCRC will respond (I don't think they grunt) and that's the only response that's going to count.
'In my humble opinion'
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At least you had the guts to say something, that says a lot, in my opinion.
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So now after over a week of being able to digest the Williams-Thomas documentary there hasn't been a single argument that can disprove the tests regarding the silencer evidence. It is nothing short of astonishing that a theory can be destroyed on a single point.
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How did Fletcher the firearms expert form his conclusions about the silencer, because if he had had little experience in determining deaths where silencers had been used in shootings his findings would be worthless.
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How did Fletcher the firearms expert form his conclusions about the silencer, because if he had had little experience in determining deaths where silencers had been used in shootings his findings would be worthless.
MT as stated before on here , Ewan Smith believed Fletcher was dodgy !!
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Fletcher's report is going to be put under the microscope at the CCRC and McKay must know of it's weaknesses in light of his own discussions with the American Medical Examiners.
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I think that you have been taken in by some defence propaganda and that it will become apparent when the CCRC announce their decision.
Well Harters, our lot are used to being on the losing side and it sounds like your lot are pretty confident. Our lot had hoped for a double six with Bamber's last throw of the dice. But I'm not sure you would make the statement you have, without some kind of indication from elsewhere, having been intimated.
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MT as stated before on here , Ewan Smith believed Fletcher was dodgy !!
Yes, Ewen confided in me that he suspected MDF was dodgy - I would take a lie detector test regarding this...
And anything else I have talked about...
Including my contact with my informant, and everything he has told me...
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This is what a UK Forensic Science degree entails. It can be obtained from The University Of Kent.
What work being a forensic scientist involves; Recording findings and collecting trace evidence from scenes of crime or accident.
Analysing samples such as hair, body fluids, glass, paint and drugs in the laboratory
Applying various techniques as appropriate; eg DNA profiling, mass spectrometry, chromatography.
Giving evidence in Court but this would be at least several years after graduating.
There are Three Main Areas
Chemistry, Mainly crimes against property such as burglary, and arson. This includes the analysis of contact traces eg. Paint, Glass and Chemicals, also Fire investigation, Accident reconstruction and Serial numbers - However 80% of cases involves drugs analyses
Biology, Mainly crimes against the person. Violent crimes such as Murder, GBH and Rape makes up most of the case types encountered and the majority of examinations involve swabs of blood and other body fluids, hair and clothing fibres. Both traditional and serological and DNA testing is used. DNA work is increasing because of the Nation-Wide DNA database. Crimes from many years ago are now being re-examined because of new DNA evidence. ( nugnug )
Drugs and Toxicology, Testing for restricted drugs,examining tissue specimens, drink and drug driving samples, and the criminal and non-criminal investigation of deaths due to overdodoses, poisons and drugs.
Skills and Qualities Required
Great patience and concentration: Much work is monotonous, painstaking, detailed and routine. Nothing Like CSI !!!!!!!!
High quality analytical work. Excellent attention to detail. Logical, unbiased and methodical in your approach to solving problems as you will have to give impartial evidence in Court. An inquisitive,open mind. Work well in a team and independently.
Outgoing personality with strong verbal communication and presenting skills for reporting roles. Confidence as reporting officers having to present evidence in Court and be cross-examined by Barristers, this makes up a quarter of the work.
Present complex scientific information in a clear,simple way that a member of a Jury, with No Scientific Knowledge, can Understand.
It helps if applicants have Business Skills as well as being technically capable.
Crimes happen at any time, so you may need to be prepared for evening and weekend call outs. Also Court work may involve being on call and unsocial hours. You need a strong stomach, as some of the scenes of crime can be gruesome and upsetting.
Forensic Scientists are Chemists, in particular Analytical Chemists and have no background with Firearms or Ballistics. The next post will detail how a Forensic Scientist can become a Forensic Ballistics Expert Witness.
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Yes, Ewen confided in me that he suspected MDF was dodgy - I would take a lie detector test regarding this...
And anything else I have talked about...
Including my contact with my informant, and everything he has told me...
Your informant might be approaching the hour of his calling. Let's hope he adheres to 'cometh the hour, cometh the man'.
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CCRC cannot ignore the evidence recently obtained from the US about the entry wound under the chin, since this was the wound at which the prosecution claimed blood from Sheila got into the silencer. You cannot have a current situation, whereby the original ballistic expert (MDF) claims Sheila's blood got into the silencer at the time she was shot under the chin, and the US findings that a silencer was not used to inflict that wound?
Seems to me, that CCRC either have to accept the original finding and ignore the latest findings, or get a second opinion, to try and resolve the matter, to see which expert is telling the truth?
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CCRC cannot ignore the evidence recently obtained from the US about the entry wound under the chin, since this was the wound at which the prosecution claimed blood from Sheila got into the silencer. You cannot have a current situation, whereby the original ballistic expert (MDF) claims Sheila's blood got into the silencer at the time she was shot under the chin, and the US findings that a silencer was not used to inflict that wound?
Seems to me, that CCRC either have to accept the original finding and ignore the latest findings, or get a second opinion, to try and resolve the matter, to see which expert is telling the truth?
They can on occasion, weasil out by using due process red tape. I do hope this is not one of those occasions.
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I just think it's nearly run it's course, I'm interested in the case but bored of the arguments (none case related).
My personal opinion is that your post above contains a whole host of sweeping unsubstantiated conclusions, however my opinion isn't really worth a damn and you are obviously more than entitled to form your own opinion.
I think that you have been taken in by some defence propaganda and that it will become apparent when the CCRC announce their decision. I understand that you have a different view, but I have no interest in trying to change yours or anybody Else's view.
It's not that I can't come up with a response, (I could probably come up with a compelling argument that black is actually blue), it's just simply that I don't feel that I need to respond, or even grunt.
The CCRC will respond (I don't think they grunt) and that's the only response that's going to count.
'In my humble opinion'
You haven't changed too much Hartley! You are still of the opinion that all others are beneath you.
The lie that the bout flours were rich has been exposed as a lie.
I tire of your bullish comments, which have no foundation. I n my opinion you are a stuck up snob, and I take your comments with a pinch of salt. When you leave again Steve, make it perminant
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Your informant might be approaching the hour of his calling. Let's hope he adheres to 'cometh the hour, cometh the man'.
I am hoping to be contacted by my informant in the coming weeks, we are all waiting...
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I am hoping to be contacted by my informant in the coming weeks, we are all waiting...
I trust and believe in my informant, he has come forward and has a lot to lose by so doing...
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I trust and believe in my informant, he has come forward and has a lot to lose by so doing...
Nevertheless Mike, unless the CCRC do a 'Man from Del Monte' next week, your informant will not have had any impact by handing stuff in to the reception.
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Nevertheless Mike, unless the CCRC do a 'Man from Del Monte' next week, your informant will not have had any impact by handing stuff in to the reception.
it remains to be seen...
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Forensic Ballistics is a Postgraduate MSc Programme.
Course Aims
To provide students with an understanding of how the physical sciences and other disciplines including Ballistics, Weapon Function and Weapon Failure can be used to help resolve issues in relation to Civil and Criminal Law. To help equip students with the necessary understanding of Science, Firearms Classification, Firearms Law, Courtroom Skills, other specific disciplines and research methods, in order to prepare them to practice as a Professional Expert Witness in Forensic Ballistics.
Knowledge
Develop a critical awareness of current practice in Forensic Science through partaking in Crime Scene Exercises run by Professional Crime Scene Investigations and the attendance at lectures given by Practising Forensic Scientists and Engineers and by being encouraged to join Professional Organisations such as The Forensic Science Society.
Demonstrate critical assessment and originality of thought through the examination of a wide range of different types of evidence using at first hand many of the analytical techniques within the armoury of the Modern Forensic Scientist or Engineer.
Critically Assess Data Through The Application Of STATISTICAL TESTS And REASONING.
Demonstrate a critical awareness of the importance of traceability of evidence.
Acquire and assimilate knowledge from a wide range of adjacent disciplines in Ballistics, Engineering and the Physical Sciences that impact Forensics.
Understand and employ the Scientific Principles behind current analytical techniques and procedures to critically evaluate new ones and solve problems encountered.
Skills
Communicate effectively through the written word and orally by means of Expert witness reports and the presentation of evidence in Court.
Demonstrate a wide range of transferable skills through the regular use of Computer- Based literature searches, Critical use of the Internet ( Jeremy Bamber Forum ) and the use of desktop publishing techniques to construct reports. Independently plan and execute a detailed research project ( Jeremy Bamber ) and present results at meetings.
Write a Research Thesis ( Its Obvious who to choose for this ) that includes
A critical review of established Forensic Practice in a particular field.
Describe and critically evaluate current research and methodologies in the area, categorising good and bad practice, and defending their opinions.
A clear explanation of experimental/analytical procedures and the presentations of results by appropriate means.
Self-critical discussion of experimental/analytical Results with Conclusions that place The Research in the Context of the Professional Practice of Forensic Sciences.
Accreditation
The Forensic Ballistics MSc has been formally accredited by the Forensic Science Society.
Footnote
If by chance you happen to come up against an American Chief Medical Examiner at an appeal Good Luck. Jeremy Bamber has got three of them!!!!!
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If by chance you happen to come up against an American Chief Medical Examiner at an appeal Good Luck. Jeremy Bamber has got three of them!!!!!
What if the CCRC dodge the non disclosure issue (as did the IPCC) re the photographs and state that the ballistics evidence should have been presented previously?
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What if the CCRC dodge the non disclosure issue (as did the IPCC) re the photographs and state that the ballistics evidence should have been presented previously?
That has been addressed by Simon McKay in the final submissions. It is unlikely that the evidence could have been obtained in 1986.
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That has been addressed by Simon McKay in the final submissions. It is unlikely that the evidence could have been obtained in 1986.
Well we'll know soon enough Neil. Let's hope that Simon is not pushed in to persuing other avenues.
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Well we'll know soon enough Neil. Let's hope that Simon is not pushed in to persuing other avenues.
Wonder what those other avenues will in include?
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Wonder what those other avenues will in include?
What avenue's would you pursue ?
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What avenue's would you pursue ?
I think they could do with information provided by me, from my informant...
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Wonder what those other avenues will in include?
I meant Judicial Review in the first instance.
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I meant Judicial Review in the first instance.
Oh I see, nothing to do with the information provided by .........
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Oh I see, nothing to do with the information provided by .........
I dont follow what you're saying Mike. Spit it out.
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I dont follow what you're saying Mike. Spit it out.
For the time being I am withholding the identity of my informant - he will come forward himself in due course, at least that is what he tells me...
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Well Harters, our lot are used to being on the losing side and it sounds like your lot are pretty confident. Our lot had hoped for a double six with Bamber's last throw of the dice. But I'm not sure you would make the statement you have, without some kind of indication from elsewhere, having been intimated.
Oh well, nevermind.
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When witnesses are not making their own witness statements, and or the DPP are editing the contents of the same to exclude evidence that would be damaging to the case they seek to bring against a person, I thin k its fair to say that in these circumstances the credibility of the police involved in this case / investigation / prosecution of Jeremy Bamber, is more than called into question...
It turned into a witch-hunt, and Jeremy was the fall guy...
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Some statistics from America. The majority of Gun-Related deaths in the United States are Suicides with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,244 Fire-Arm related deaths in 2007 due to Suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were Homicides. 50.7% of all Suicides committed during 2006 in the United States were with Guns. The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime for the year 2000 has these numbers for Gun related crime. Homicides with Fire-Arms Colombia 83%
England and Wales 8%
United States 65%
Unlike the US, Suicide rates with Guns where Guns are uncommon are as you would expect equally uncommon. How daft are Simon Mckay and Mark Williams-Thomas for getting the tests carried out in the United States !!!!!
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I have just been reading Mark Williams-Thomas on twitter. Very interesting, all doubters over his documentary's relevance should read what he has said about himself. The most important points for the CCRC to consider are these from the original trial judge and in this order 1 Silencer
2 Mugford
3 Phonecall
Read what he's tweeted from the 29th March, then you will be in a position to make a more balanced
judgement on his work. ps Think Mid April for News of CCRC decision on referall.
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Silencer
It needs to be explained how blood got into silencer, if a silencer was not used at all in the shootings, and by suggesting a silencer was not used does not cover that point - Jury accepted it was Sheila's blood found in the silencer, CCRC will have to take that into account, when dealing with the new evidence from the US...
MUGFORD
She was motivated by revenge, the promise of money from the NOTW, and with a further promise from the police /DPP that she would not be prosecuted in connection with any of the offences she had been committing. She also gave different accounts at different stages of the investigation - Facts which were kept back from the jury who were being asked to consider her testimony as truthful. Basically her evidence should not have been relied upon to help prosecute and convict Bamber of these murders, her testimony was unreliable for all the reasons given...
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Silencer
It needs to be explained how blood got into silencer, if a silencer was not used at all in the shootings, and by suggesting a silencer was not used does not cover that point - Jury accepted it was Sheila's blood found in the silencer, CCRC will have to take that into account, when dealing with the new evidence from the US...
The CCRC wont will they , the court was told the shooting's were carried out with the silencer attached , once this is proven untrue , the court was misled !!
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The CCRC wont will they , the court was told the shooting's were carried out with the silencer attached , once this is proven untrue , the court was misled !!
And...
Should the CCRC refer the case back to the court of appeal on the basis that a silencer was not used in the shootings, that nobody will get investigated and prosecuted for introducing the false blood and paint evidence, which has been danced around from one silencer (SBJ/1) to the other (DRB/1)? If CCRC refer case, do you think anybody will get prosecuted?
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And...
Should the CCRC refer the case back to the court of appeal on the basis that a silencer was not used in the shootings, that nobody will get investigated and prosecuted for introducing the false blood and paint evidence, which has been danced around from one silencer (SBJ/1) to the other (DRB/1)? If CCRC refer case, do you think anybody will get prosecuted?
I think there is more than enough evidence available now to prove and to show that the silencer evidence is dodgy, and that it along with the blood and paint evidence should never have been allowed to be used to support the prosecutions case to help convict Bamber for these murders, they messed around with the silencer, blood and paint evidence too much for my liking and for this reason it needs to be dismissed on the basis that it is unreliable evidence...
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And...
Should the CCRC refer the case back to the court of appeal on the basis that a silencer was not used in the shootings, that nobody will get investigated and prosecuted for introducing the false blood and paint evidence, which has been danced around from silencer (SBJ/1) to the other (DRB/1)? If CCRC refer case, do you think anybody will get prosecuted?
Totally agree with you , there should be a REAL inquiry into the conduct of all involved in the finding , examining of the silencer's !!
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Totally agree with you , there should be a REAL inquiry into the conduct of all involved in the finding , examining of the silencer's !!
No matter where you look or start to probe regarding the possible use of the silencer, or the blood found inside it, or the paint from the aga surround, there are problems relating to it and exhibit references have been changed (to protect the guilty) in connection with these crucial pieces of evidence. How can a court of law allow evidence like this to remain in place to keep someone locked up for the rest of their natural life? I have no doubt at all in my mind that a silencer did play some role in the proceedings, but not in the way it has been portrayed by the prosecution. It's dodgy evidence, even if one of the silencers (which I believe was SBJ/1) was used in the shooting of Sheila to the side of the neck (bullet PV/20)? There is too much doubt surrounding this non fatal entry wound and the way the police / ballistic expert have been allowed to get away with substituting the original fragmented bullet and replacing it with a whole bullet just so the ballistc expert could cionclude that both bullets used to shoot Sheila were fired by the same Anshulz rifle...
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Phone Call
I believe such a phone call did take place from the scene by Ralph to Jeremy, but what I am not convinced about are the actual words which Ralph used - Did he actually say to Jeremy, "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", or did Ralph say "She has got the gun, she has gone Crazy, come quickly"? And more importantly, if Ralph did use the term "She" as opposed to "Sheila", who might Ralph have been referring to? Sheila, or June? It is easy to understand how Jeremy could have been mistaken into believing that his father had used the term "Sheila" at the time, because she had very recently been discharged from hospital, but equally with the benefit of hindsight he could have been referring to his wife, June...
I am not convinced that Ralph was talking about Sheila at that stage, since it is just as likely that he was referring to June, who also had a history of mental illness...
You only have to look at the way Jeremy was questioned about this call when he was arrested and interviewed to see how the situation could have developed regarding what his father actually said, what he (Jeremy) thought he (his father) said, and what Jeremy told the police what he (father) said, and what the police recorded what he (Jeremy) said his father had said? For these reasons I do not think anyone can reliably say that the call did not take place, and that it was just an invention by Jeremy to try and get away with the perfect murder(s) because he had already killed everyone by the time he called the police, and because the police were now saying Sheila did not take her own life, the phone call must be made up?
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Phone Call
I believe such a phone call did take place from the scene by Ralph to Jeremy, but what I am not convinced about are the actual words which Ralph used - Did he actually say to Jeremy, "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", or did Ralph say "She has got the gun, she has gone Crazy, come quickly"? And more importantly, if Ralph did use the term "She" as opposed to "Sheila", who might Ralph have been referring to? Sheila, or June? It is easy to understand how Jeremy could have been mistaken into believing that his father had used the term "Sheila" at the time, because she had very recently been discharged from hospital, but equally with the benefit of hindsight he could have been referring to his wife, June...
I am not convinced that Ralph was talking about Sheila at that stage, since it is just as likely that he was referring to June, who also had a history of mental illness...
You only have to look at the way Jeremy was questioned about this call when he was arrested and interviewed to see how the situation could have developed regarding what his father actually said, what he (Jeremy) thought he (his father) said, and what Jeremy told the police what he (father) said, and what the police recorded what he (Jeremy) said his father had said? For these reasons I do not think anyone can reliably say that the call did not take place, and that it was just an invention by Jeremy to try and get away with the perfect murder(s) because he had already killed everyone by the time he called the police, and because the police were now saying Sheila did not take her own life, the phone call must be made up?
Most importantly, police could not, and cannot prove that such a phone call did not take place, between Ralph at the scene, and Jeremy at his cottage...
It is no longer a case of the phone call could not have been made because the purpose of introducing the call was to throw suspicion upon Sheila to try and make it look like she was responsible, for shooting the others, and then taking her own life, because of the possible mix up with what Ralph actually had said, "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", rather than "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly". In any event Jeremy was released from custody after he gave the response about the call from his father, where he mentions and points out these possibilities...
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Most importantly, police could not, and cannot prove that such a phone call did not take place, between Ralph at the scene, and Jeremy at his cottage...
It is no longer a case of the phone call could not have been made because the purpose of introducing the call was to throw suspicion upon Sheila to try and make it look like she was responsible, for shooting the others, and then taking her own life, because of the possible mix up with what Ralph actually had said, "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", rather than "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly". In any event Jeremy was released from custody after he gave the response about the call from his father, where he mentions and points out these possibilities...
And if the silencer was not used to kill Sheila, well that makes a big difference, as well...
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Could I ask what will happen if the CCRC do not refer to the Court of Appeal? Will that be the end of this particular process until if and when new evidence comes to light to submit once again to the CCRC?
Thanks in anticipation. :)
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Im sure other members will have a better answer than me Gillian but if that was the result jeremy would be back at square one with it all to do again, but this next time he would have to go even further than before and without legal assistance thats going to be very difficult.
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Could I ask what will happen if the CCRC do not refer to the Court of Appeal? Will that be the end of this particular process until if and when new evidence comes to light to submit once again to the CCRC?
Thanks in anticipation. :)
Not sure? But I think ngb said his legal team could challenge their decision in some way?
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Could I ask what will happen if the CCRC do not refer to the Court of Appeal? Will that be the end of this particular process until if and when new evidence comes to light to submit once again to the CCRC?
Thanks in anticipation. :)
If the CCRC do not refer the case Jeremy could either challenge that decision by making an application to the High Court for Judicial Review, or he could start all over again with a fresh application to the CCRC.
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If the CCRC do not refer the case Jeremy could either challenge that decision by making an application to the High Court for Judicial Review, or he could start all over again with a fresh application to the CCRC.
If that was so then if I were Jeremy I would just give up and join the local badminton team.
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Thanks for that everyone. Here's hoping for good news in the next few weeks. :)
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This is from the Guidance For CCRC Application
Some investigation may be necessary on behalf of the convicted defendant before any application is made, possibly including further forensic testing, the obtaining of witness statements and counsel's opinion. If an application is to be made to the CCRC, then the solicitor will be involved in gathering and rationalising the material, preparing a chronology of events, and preparing the submission of any legal arguments required. The solicitor is also likely to need to advise and assist the convicted defendant after the application is submitted to the CCRC by assisting the CCRC with specific queries, making further submissions (if appropriate) arising from material disclosed by the CCRC in the course of the review and investigation, liaising with the CCRC as to its approach and progress and advising the client in relation to any decisions made by the CCRC in the case. It may be necessary for the solicitor to meet the CCRC's representatives on more than one occasion in a complex case.
( Specification Part B; Rule 6.4
of the General Criminal Contract )
Figures to 31 October 2011
13,282 cases reviewed
483 Referrals
Court of Appeal
Heard 458
Quashed 320
Upheld 134
Reserved 4
Total applications includes 279 cases transferred from the Home Office when the Commission was set up in 1997. Jeremy Bamber was one of these cases.
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That's an awful lot of work to get through in a year.
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This is a heat test carried out today 14th April 2012 on an Oil Fired Aga. All temperatures are for the outside enamelled front and doors. They were taken with a digital ear thermometer, between 3pm and 4pm. Aga Front and Door 33.2 C
32.1 C
32.4 C
34.5C
The Aga is black enamel, there is also a silver badge on the front, surprisingly this was hottest part with one recording of 37.8C, the lowest temperature was 35.3C.
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This is a heat test carried out today 14th April 2012 on an Oil Fired Aga. All temperatures are for the outside enamelled front and doors. They were taken with a digital ear thermometer, between 3pm and 4pm. Aga Front and Door 33.2 C
32.1 C
32.4 C
34.5C
The Aga is black enamel, there is also a silver badge on the front, surprisingly this was hottest part with one recording of 37.8C, the lowest temperature was 35.3C.
Does that make it a range from 90 100 degrees campion
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What it is does make it, is remarkable that with so many Police at the scene, nobody did this check, it wasn't difficult to hold a thermometer and record it's results.
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Does that make it a range from 90 100 degrees campion
Now try placing the end of the barrel in the oven...
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You don't need to, just rest the tip of the rifle against the outside of the Aga, the heat would transfer instantly.
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Now try placing the end of the barrel in the oven...
Two hundred degrees Celsius is a mere moderately hot temperature inside a domestic oven or aga.
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Now try placing the end of the barrel in the oven...
The door and chasis of the aga are insulated against heat, aren't they?
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Now try placing the end of the barrel in the oven...
So what you are saying choc having beat her father and shot him she then opened the oven door and held the rifle in and heated it up till it was hot enough, then went back and burnt him to see if he was alive? Opening and keeping the oven door open lets the heat escape by the way thus it would not have reached enough temperature in my view?
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So what you are saying choc having beat her father and shot him she then opened the oven door and held the rifle in and heated it up till it was hot enough, then went back and burnt him to see if he was alive? Opening and keeping the oven door open lets the heat escape by the way thus it would not have reached enough temperature in my view?
Only a man would make that claim - sorry, more sexism ;D I believe you could heat the end of a rifle's barrel to 200 c by opening the door of an aga that is heated to its maximum temperature, placing the end of the barrel inside and part closing the door. Test it and see.
We're only talking of a moderate temperature: gas mark 7!
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So what you are saying choc having beat her father
No need to be so incredulous, I'm just 5' tall, but I could beat the living daylights out of you, even if you're 6'3 and twice my weight and muscle power...if I first shot you.
Of course, I would never do this because, in common with Jeremy Bamber, I'm neither a brutalised, murderous type, nor am I severely psychotic.
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37.8C is 100.4 Fahrenheit. Generally a temperature of approx 140 F burns skin. This means a temperature as low 130 F can burn skin after 20 seconds.
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Only a man would make that claim - sorry, more sexism ;D I believe you could heat the end of a rifle's barrel to 200 c by opening the door of an aga that is heated to its maximum temperature, placing the end of the barrel inside and part closing the door. Test it and see.
We're only talking of a moderate temperature: gas mark 7!
I dont no choc, i accept that the gun in question had a thinner barrel which would heat up quicker but i dont think the aga oven or leaning against it would do it?
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37.8C is 100.4 Fahrenheit. Generally a temperature of approx 140 F burns skin. This means a temperature as low 130 F can burn skin after 20 seconds.
Thanks, Campion, I had the impression that the temperature needs to be 200 C.
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she then opened the oven door and held the rifle in and heated it up till it was hot enough, then went back and burnt him to see if he was alive?
Signed statements tell us that during Sheila's psychotic episodes she believed that she, her sons, her family and at least one of her friends (Freddie) were possessed by the devil. We know that Sheila believed these devils (that she hallucinated) were capable of raping and harming her.
We know that Sheila told a young cousin that she was a white witch, that she told Nevill that she was the Virgin Mary and sent to save the world, that she asked Dr Ferguson to arrange exorcism for her and that Sheila had a history of violence during her psychotic episodes.
We also know that, one time when Sheila was sectioned under the Mental Health Act, she did not recognise her parents.
Who exactly did Sheila believe Nevill and June to be when she could not recognise them - devils?
Put all of the above together and I believe it does not stretch credulity at all to consider that:
1. A hallucinating Sheila may have burned Nevill to see if he was really dead and if 'the devil'
possessing him had left him.
2. Or that, in the depths of her hallucination, Sheila may have burned Nevill to ensure that the devil
could not reinhabit him and bring him back to life.
3. Witches, even children, were burned and branded - and still are in some cultures - because it was
believed that fire release their demons and sorcery.
4. Sheila may have seen all of the above as saving her family, herself and the world from evil.
5. Or, Sheila may simply have wished to punish her father.
Incredible as this seems to you and I, if you have experience of psychotics, as I have, you will know that all of the above is sadly possible
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No need to be so incredulous, I'm just 5' tall, but I could beat the living daylights out of you, even if you're 6'3 and twice my weight and muscle power...if I first shot you.
Of course, I would never do this because, in common with Jeremy Bamber, I'm neither a brutalised, murderous type, nor am I severely psychotic.
Only a woman would make that sort of remark, sorry about the sexism
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The Witch or Devils mark was believed to be the permanent marking of the Devil on his initiates to seal their obedience and service to him. He created the mark by raking his claw across the flesh, or by making a blue or red brand using a hot iron. The Devil was thought to mark the individual at the end of Nocturnal Initiation Rites.
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Now try placing the end of the barrel in the oven...
Experiments established that within 5 minutes the end of the barrel becomes hot enough to cause the three burns.
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Experiments established that within 5 minutes the end of the barrel becomes hot enough to cause the three burns.
I am in favour of the rifles barrel having been rested against the aga oven for a period of about five minutes, and that this was the tool used to make the marks on the back of Ralph Bambers neck, after he was already dead and had been shot up to 8 times already......
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Experiments established that within 5 minutes the end of the barrel becomes hot enough to cause the three burns.
Thank you, NGB!
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Only a woman would make that sort of remark, sorry about the sexism
You have me bang to rights, Ralph :D
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Experiments established that within 5 minutes the end of the barrel becomes hot enough to cause the three burns.
Is that with the oven door open or closed Neil, and do you think that the aga would be that hot in august?
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I am in favour of the rifles barrel having been rested against the aga oven for a period of about five minutes, and that this was the tool used to make the marks on the back of Ralph Bambers neck, after he was already dead and had been shot up to 8 times already......
Do you think Ralph was also beaten after he was dead, does the appearence of his injuries give any clues to this?
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Do you think Ralph was also beaten after he was dead, does the appearence of his injuries give any clues to this?
I believe this is one for Mertol, Maggie, he's our resident expert in this field.
Mertol, where are you? We need you!
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I believe this is one for Mertol, Maggie, he's our resident expert in this field.
Mertol, where are you? We need you!
Yes Chock, I don't suppose it makes much difference to the case but it's helps to build a picture, I also hope for Ralph's sake that he was not alive by then.
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Yes Chock, I don't suppose it makes much difference to the case but it's helps to build a picture, I also hope for Ralph's sake that he was not alive by then.
I agree, Maggie, the more information we have, the better.
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Yes Chock, I don't suppose it makes much difference to the case but it's helps to build a picture, I also hope for Ralph's sake that he was not alive by then.
I personally think it is vital for the case. Since that was how the prosecution built up their case against Jeremy. They questioned Sheila's ability to fight with her 6 ft father saying that is was impossible for her to have done so. Indeed those who believe Jeremy to be guilty still use that argument. But if Ralph was dead already when he was beaten and received those burn marks then this could have turned the case round and quite frankly I don't know why the defence never pushed this point?
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I personally think it is vital for the case. Since that was how the prosecution built up their case against Jeremy. They questioned Sheila's ability to fight with her 6 ft father saying that is was impossible for her to have done so. Indeed those who believe Jeremy to be guilty still use that argument. But if Ralph was dead already when he was beaten and received those burn marks then this could have turned the case round and quite frankly I don't know why the defence never pushed this point?
I do have worries about it myself. If Ralph was badly injured, it may have been possible but I'm 5'8" and I know even when younger and really fit I couldn't have fought off a 6'4" man. Sheer body weight and muscle mass make it impossible. I actually don't think Jeremy could have fought off an uninjured Ralph either. I know
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I believe this is one for Mertol, Maggie, he's our resident expert in this field.
Mertol, where are you? We need you!
Hello Keira thank you for your pm, these burn marks are not easy to explain , while trying to establish how they were made and at what point in the events my direction has always been as to why,
though i have seen many deceased people with wounds like this they are all different, the burns look to me post shooting injuries as they look fresher than the rest of the wounds the heat in the kitchen would have speeded up the decomposition quite a bit , much has been said about the state of mind Sheila may have been in that night,there has to be a starting point to when it was showing, i understand the drive up with colin sheila remained silent, i believe sheils flipped over as much as one word or a few words ,we need to explain this just what was it, i believe some form of plan was made for the twins despite colin been the father and sheila flipped.
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Thanks Mertol but is there any way you can tell if Ralph was beaten before or after death?
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Thanks Mertol but is there any way you can tell if Ralph was beaten before or after death?
im not sure maggie its worth pointing out there are few pictures of ralph on the forum , the ones taken at the mortuary would provide a better answer, i do know that burn injuries are quick to develop i do not think ralph was alive at the time he suffered the injuries .
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im not sure maggie its worth pointing out there are few pictures of ralph on the forum , the ones taken at the mortuary would provide a better answer, i do know that burn injuries are quick to develop i do not think ralph was alive at the time he suffered the injuries .
I hope not Mertol for his sake apart from anything else and it would makr more sense, if Sheila did the shootings she would be totally lost by the time Ralph had died and goodness knows what she was seeing or believing. I do think it's important to acknowledge how very ill she must have been and that she was as much a victim as any of them.
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I hope not Mertol for his sake apart from anything else and it would makr more sense, if Sheila did the shootings she would be totally lost by the time Ralph had died and goodness knows what she was seeing or believing. I do think it's important to acknowledge how very ill she must have been and that she was as much a victim as any of them.
what was sheila silent about on that final drive up to WHF ?
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what was sheila silent about on that final drive up to WHF ?
From what I have read about schizophrenia one of the main symptoms is withdrawal from the world. We know Colin said he had told her he didn't want to get back with her, she was probably mulling that over. I was wondering if she was showing particular signs of depression, apparently depression is a forerunner of a psychotic event in schizophrenia. It is noticeable how often it is mentioned iin statements that Sheila was, 'out of it', 'withdrawn', 'shy' etc., all signs of schizophrenia. She had also had that meting with her natural Mum. Goodness knows what happened there, she was not well enough to have to deal with so much rejection aand pressure. The more you look the more you see the situation that was building.
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im not sure maggie its worth pointing out there are few pictures of ralph on the forum , the ones taken at the mortuary would provide a better answer, i do know that burn injuries are quick to develop i do not think ralph was alive at the time he suffered the injuries .
Mertol, do you know why there are so few photos of ralph?
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Mertol, do you know why there are so few photos of ralph?
Likewise the rest of the victims bar Sheila unless mike has others , then these are the only ones i know the rest of course locked away .
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Likewise the rest of the victims bar Sheila unless mike has others , then these are the only ones i know the rest of course locked away .
Thanks Mertol, I haven't actually seen any pics of Ralph but that's fine, I'm not very eager. I wuld like to mention that it is now 23 years since 96 people died at Hillsborough. Those who believe in Jeremy Bamber should maybe take comfort from the fact that at last, thanks to the relentless search for the truth, the appallng behaviour of the South Yorkshire police, the Sun, the lies and the cover ups is beginning to leak out. I suppose the lesson is to never give up hope.
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Is that with the oven door open or closed Neil, and do you think that the aga would be that hot in august?
With the oven door open and the end of the rifle barrel placed inside. The Aga was kept going permanently 24 hours a day even in the summer. It would certainly have been hot enough.
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I am not sure how to get this report, a group of American Psychiatrists, Rick Scarnati, Mark A Madray, Alfreda Wise, Henry D Moore Jr, Mark C Schmeider and Matthew L Stephens: Religious Beliefs and Practices Among Most Dangerous Psychiatric Inmates. Forensic Reports Vol 4 pp 1-16 Jan-March 1991.
There does seem to be a link with Religion and Schizophrenia.
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Has the note found with the Bible been checked to see if it was possibly a Sigil. For instance to summon the Demon Haagenti it may be written... HAA
GEN
TI
Sheila being well versed in White Witchcraft would have been aware of the importance of one and if she felt possessed by demons probably would have placed a Sigil with her suicide note !
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Let's say Jeremy has killed his mother, Shiela and the twins. He then has a massive struggle with Ralph but manages to kill him. He has to stage manage the scene, wash his wetsuit in the shower and get home to call the police, but he takes the time to heat up some metal object to inflict 3 burns to Ralph's back... I can't believe it somehow.
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For convenience, the lettered note DRH/42 had the Letters... NMD
GD
BPLU
CF
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Let's say Jeremy has killed his mother, Shiela and the twins. He then has a massive struggle with Ralph but manages to kill him. He has to stage manage the scene, wash his wetsuit in the shower and get home to call the police, but he takes the time to heat up some metal object to inflict 3 burns to Ralph's back... I can't believe it somehow.
Just asking, as I know nothing about aga's. Is it possibl that at some point Ralph slumped against the aga causing the burns to his back?
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Just asking, as I know nothing about aga's. Is it possibl that at some point Ralph slumped against the aga causing the burns to his back?
I dont think this would be possible buddy, i have only come accross 2 agas before 1 electric and one coal and although hot to touch on the outside they would not burn you.
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It would be possible to burn yourself if the Aga was very hot but you would have to be against for quite some time and the marks would not be consistent with the burns he had and as it was summer the Aga would be set at low going from my own experience.
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Im surprised that it was concluded in the Dickinson report? that the burn marks were probably inflicted by way of a hot poker.A poker is solid and not hollow?
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A hollow poker would pick up embers and ash and end up very messy. I'm sure they dont exist.