Author Topic: Who was turning lights on and off inside the farmhouse if everyone was dead?  (Read 12513 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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The truth is that different lighting via different windows at the farmhouse are being described as either being on or off, or vice versa, by different people who were there. All this information is / was admissible evidence given in statement form by witnesses who were present there at the scene, and therefore none of it should be dismissed easily, particularly in view of the fact that for whatever reasons the 25+ armed officers and support units were being keptt at bay from making an approach to enter the farmhouse for over three and a half hours! Intelligence regarding the lights in different parts of the farmhouse which were going on and off, or off and then on, was being updated back to the information hub in a nearby outbuilding almost certainly have led to PS Adams (Commander of firearms operation) believing that there was somebody still alive and moving around inside the farmhouse, otherwise the firearms officers would have stormed the farmhouse a long time before they actually had, and did!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 06:45:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Jane

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Ok Mike. Firstly, what comes to my attention a thousand times more than your -ALLEGED- belief in Jeremy's innocence (actually, the jury's STILL out on that) is you very obvious detestation of police and a strong desire to get even, EVEN if it means helping a guilty man get off. DO I think you believe Jeremy's innocent? The most honest I can be is to say that I think you may have seen a potential loop hole when you shared a cell with him and you've worked on it. I understand that you have to keep it going.

 Believe me, Mike, I've NEVER underestimated you -but just for the record, you've misread me. I NEVER implied YOU were stupid -in fact, I'm in total agreement with what your particularly astute trial judge said of you- I implied that it would be "I" who was stupid to believe what you were saying. Did not Jeremy ALSO compliment you on your cleverness?

You're perfectly correct in your belief that I and as you so rudely put it -my kind- HAVEN'T experienced corrupt trial judges.  NOR, just in case you were wondering, have I experienced being in the presence of a presiding judge since the day of my adoption, although I do know one or two socially.

I will say again, I DON'T believe there was corruption at ground level at WHF. Police admitted that they were out of their depth. I do NOT believe that lights were seen to be going on/off/on either continuously or intermittently -if only because Jeremy would have shouted it from the roof tops- nor do I believe that not one member of that alleged HUGE conspiracy wouldn't have wanted a share of the 1 million pound reward at one time on offer. I DON'T believe police shot Sheila once, let alone twice. I DO believe that other than a dog, there wasn't a single soul alive at WHF after 3am, probably earlier.

Your ability with words -those sneaky double negatives thrown in? VERY clever- actually makes you an ideal person to practice confusion on some. I have NO axe to grind. I call it as I see it. You have the oneupmanship of knowing how (SOME) police work, far better than I, but I read papers and I'm fully cognisant  that there's corruption out there. The way I see it is that Jeremy's case lends itself to that accusation. I agree there was confusion -much of it Jeremy led- I deny there was corruption.

Offline Caroline

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Why not have the courage of your convictions and find out if there are any more documents by contacting someone in the legal team instead of forever crowing that there aren't any ??
EP are there in all their glory on the WWW so far as " dismissed " named and shamed officers are concerned. The world sees that doesn't it ? Of course they wouldn't show ALL their " mistakes " online, there'd be no room for anything else.

Let me remind you too are arguing against a lot of people ! Where are the high-profile pics in your corner ?

You and your 'teams'  ::)

The courage of MY convictions? It's not me claiming this, that and the other is being withheld - you need to have the courage of YOUR convictions and get to penning a letter yourself - I have no wish to correspond with any of the 'teams' supporting Bamber and I wouldn't take anything they spouted as a fact anyway. EP are slagged off via Bamber supporters and the 'world' isn't interested Lookout - just a few people in the grand scheme of things.

I'm really not arguing with a lot of people, just the few people that post here and on red. If the masses out there are all Bamber supporters, this forum couldn't handle the traffic, but as it is, we get one or two new members a month and most of those don't bother posting.

Not sure what you mean by a 'high profile pic'? I was once on the cover of my work magazine if that's any help?  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline mike tesko

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Ok Mike. Firstly, what comes to my attention a thousand times more than your -ALLEGED- belief in Jeremy's innocence (actually, the jury's STILL out on that) is you very obvious detestation of police and a strong desire to get even, EVEN if it means helping a guilty man get off. DO I think you believe Jeremy's innocent? The most honest I can be is to say that I think you may have seen a potential loop hole when you shared a cell with him and you've worked on it. I understand that you have to keep it going.

 Believe me, Mike, I've NEVER underestimated you -but just for the record, you've misread me. I NEVER implied YOU were stupid -in fact, I'm in total agreement with what your particularly astute trial judge said of you- I implied that it would be "I" who was stupid to believe what you were saying. Did not Jeremy ALSO compliment you on your cleverness?

You're perfectly correct in your belief that I and as you so rudely put it -my kind- HAVEN'T experienced corrupt trial judges.  NOR, just in case you were wondering, have I experienced being in the presence of a presiding judge since the day of my adoption, although I do know one or two socially.

I will say again, I DON'T believe there was corruption at ground level at WHF. Police admitted that they were out of their depth. I do NOT believe that lights were seen to be going on/off/on either continuously or intermittently -if only because Jeremy would have shouted it from the roof tops- nor do I believe that not one member of that alleged HUGE conspiracy wouldn't have wanted a share of the 1 million pound reward at one time on offer. I DON'T believe police shot Sheila once, let alone twice. I DO believe that other than a dog, there wasn't a single soul alive at WHF after 3am, probably earlier.

Your ability with words -those sneaky double negatives thrown in? VERY clever- actually makes you an ideal person to practice confusion on some. I have NO axe to grind. I call it as I see it. You have the oneupmanship of knowing how (SOME) police work, far better than I, but I read papers and I'm fully cognisant  that there's corruption out there. The way I see it is that Jeremy's case lends itself to that accusation. I agree there was confusion -much of it Jeremy led- I deny there was corruption.

Lights were believed to have been turned off or on, or vice versa, as a result of different firearm officers providing updates of what they could see to PS Adams in a nearby forward control point at the scene! It was this perception, as well as the belief that at one time or another that Sheila Caffell was mimicking the barks of 'Crispy' the family pet, in response to the many challenges the cops made to the occupants inside the farmhouse using a loud gailer!

The police 'doggedly' set about trying to resolve the conflict but ended up barking up the wrong tree!

Sheila was alive, as you or me, it anyone, at the time the six man firearms team set forth to burst into the premises at just before 7.30am...

If Sheila was still alive by that stage then of course, it means that Jeremy could not have shot and killed his sister! If she was still alive at the time a police officer was involved in a struggle in the kitchen which resulted in Sheila being shot in horizontal fashion across the neck at around 7.35am, then it must be the case that Jeremy Bamber did not shoot his sister dead, because it was the second shot (PV/19) which actually finished Sheila off..

The two shots received by Sheila were not inflicted within seconds, or minutes of eachother, there was infact there was a substantial delay in-between both shots being fired and received. For a huge part of this period (7.35am and / to 9.13am) Sheila had been rendered unconscious, and believed to have died, once downstairs in the kitchen, and secondly upstairs in the bedroom...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Jane

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Lights were believed to have been turned off or on, or vice versa, as a result of different firearm officers providing updates of what they could see to PS Adams in a nearby forward control point at the scene! It was this perception, as well as the belief that at one time or another that Sheila Caffell was mimicking the barks of 'Crispy' the family pet, in response to the many challenges the cops made to the occupants inside the farmhouse using a loud gailer!

The police 'doggedly' set about trying to resolve the conflict but ended up barking up the wrong tree!

Sheila was alive, as you or me, it anyone, at the time the six man firearms team set forth to burst into the premises at just before 7.30am...

If Sheila was still alive by that stage then of course, it means that Jeremy could not have shot and killed his sister! If she was still alive at the time a police officer was involved in a struggle in the kitchen which resulted in Sheila being shot in horizontal fashion across the neck at around 7.35am, then it must be the case that Jeremy Bamber did not shoot his sister dead, because it was the second shot (PV/19) which actually finished Sheila off..

The two shots received by Sheila were not inflicted within seconds, or minutes of eachother, there was infact there was a substantial delay in-between both shots being fired and received. For a huge part of this period (7.35am and / to 9.13am) Sheila had been rendered unconscious, and believed to have died, once downstairs in the kitchen, and secondly upstairs in the bedroom...

Well, as everyone knows, "believed to have been" means there's a question mark. In this case a huge one. Grown men spooked to the point that they believed a poor, mentally ill girl -who was already dead- was mimicking a dog. Jeremy certainly did a good one on them, didn't he -I wonder, had they NOT heard "mentally ill", would they STILL have believed there to have been a living human mimicking a dog? Had they NOT been told she was gun competent with every weapon in the house, might they have gone in sooner than they did?- all this would certainly have contributed to the right hand having no idea what the left hand was doing.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 07:04:AM by Jane J »

Offline mike tesko

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Well, as everyone knows, "believed to have been" means there's a question mark. In this case a huge one. Grown men spooked to the point that they believed a poor, mentally ill girl -who was already dead- was mimicking a dog. Jeremy certainly did a good one on them, didn't he -I wonder, had they NOT heard "mentally ill", would they STILL have believed there to have been a living human mimicking a dog? Had they NOT been told she was gun competent with every weapon in the house, might they have gone in sooner than they did?- all this would certainly have contributed to the right hand having no idea what the left hand was doing.

Well, first of all, everyone was not dead whilst the police remained outside of the Farmhouse!

And the truth of the matter is that the police did believe that it was Sheila who was mimicking the dog barking, in response to their challenges by loud hailer! I guess it was a case of, Sheila responding with one bark for yes, and two barks for no! We know for example, because it states it in one of the police message logs, that firearms officers were in conversation with a person from inside the farm - now if this conversation which the firearms team were having with that person was not by use of language when the person was being challenged by the police, it must surely be the case that this is reference to the person responding with a series of dog barks!

Furthermore, it was Neville Bamber who informed the police that my daughter has got hold of one of my guns, and that she has gone berserk!

So it is somewhat misleading on your part, to try to suggest that it had been Jeremy who had planted these ideas into the Minds of the police - the contents of the 3.26am police Message log which is a recording of Neville bamber's call to the police, gives a clear indication that it was he who had informed the police that his daughter had got hold of one of his guns, thus alerting the police to the fact that there were several guns also belonging to him at the Farmhouse which is daughter (SheilaCaffell) could potentially get hold of or have access to!

It was Neville Bamber Who at 3.26am told the police that his daughter has gone berserk!

By the fact that Nevill Bamber had told the police on this occasion, 'my daughter has got hold of one of my guns', and 'she has gone berserk', surely it was he who had planted any idea that of Sheila going berserk at the farmhouse with one of the many guns which the police themselves would have known were licensed to be kept there?

No need to blame Jeremy Bamber then..

The matter doesn't end there either, since throughout the incident or as the case may be the Siege, no-one reported seing any weapon shotgun or rifle at any window of the Farmhouse upstairs or downstairs, until around 7: 15 am, when wpc Julia jeapes reported what she thought was a rifle leaning against a first floor box room window! Of course, no one is suggesting that the dog 'Crispy' had placed that rifle there at such a convenient moment, a moment which Fell after the arrival of the two ambulances and paramedics (7.00am), who had been summoned to attend the scene to tend to the Wounded and dying. What Essex Police have not said, was who was responsible for requesting the attendance of the ambulances, and what was shouted to the occupants of the Farmhouse after the arrival of those ambulances requesting that the weapon is shown at a window before they would allow the paramedics to come into and enter  the farmhouse..

The only information available is that although two ambulances arrived at the scene only one of them and it's crew was to go directly to the farmhouse! Yet that did not happen, because the police were worried that Sheila might either take them hostage or shoot them! At about 7: 15 am, the anschutz rifle suddenly appeared at the box room window, which coincided with a 6 man firearms squad commencing its approach to enter the Farmhouse by force and bring the Siege to an end...

There was someone still alive inside the Farmhouse at 7: 15 am in order for them or that person to place the anschutz rifle at the box room window!

What we then know happened was that after the firearms team had broken into the Farmhouse and upon entering the Kitchen, they reported the presence of two dead bodies, this was at 7: 35 am, and in a barrage of other messages which were passed, timed at 7: 37 am, 7.38 am, 7.42am and 7.45am, it was repeatedly confirmed that the two bodies in question, were in fact the bodies of 1 dead male and 1 dead female, and to be more precise so that there can be no doubt about the presence of two bodies in the kitchen on these occasions, one of these dead bodies was being described as a murder, Whilst the other body was being referred to as a suicide!

These reported facts, make a nonsense of the suggestion that there had been some sort of confusion, involving the presence of only one body in the kitchen, by a reliance on a report that a police officer had looked into the kitchen window from outside and reported seeing what he thought was the body of a female behind the kitchen door! Which turned out to be the body of Neville Bamber once the firearms team entered the Farmhouse and in particular the kitchen! However, even if this mistake was a genuine one, never the less, upon entering the kitchen and realising the mistake in connection with that body directly behind the kitchen door, which turned out to be the body of Neville Bamber, and not the body of a dead female, it is rather astonishing that after reporting the discovery of Neville bambers body once the firearms team had got into the kitchen, that they should also go on to say that there had also been the body of 1 dead female, in fact, two dead bodies, the body of one dead male, and the body of 1 dead female, which is a totally different scenario, to the one where a body has been mistakenly identified as a female from the vantage point of standing outside the kitchen window Looking In, prior to entry into the Farmhouse, and upon entry being gained into the Farmhouse the body in question being found to be the body of a dead male..

In the circumstances, I can accept that such a mistake could have been made in relation to the body behind the kitchen door, and that the body was that of Neville Bamber!

but upon entering the kitchen the police found a second body there, the body of a female, with no suggestion that there was any mistake about the presence of that second body, which in all the circumstances of the case could only have been an adult female, since there were three adult victims, consisting of 1 male and two females! The real give away evidence which confirms that it was Sheila Caffell's body downstairs in the kitchen, as reported in the variously timed police radio message logs, as opposed to the body of June Bamber, was that by 7.45am staff back in the control room were talking in terms of the female body being a suicide! Since in the Cold Light of Day and with the benefit of hindsight, June Bambers death could only be described as a murder in view of the fact that she had been shot a total of 7 times, and with no weapon photographed in her possession...

So..

With only one . 22 type rifle found upstairs (anshuzt rifle), and with that rifle being seen resting against the inside of a first floor box room window Prior to the police forcing entry into the premises, the only way that that rifle could end up in the possession of Sheila Caffells body in time for PC bird (2nd SOCo team) to photograph it there after 11.00am, must have involved someone, a living person, who must have collected the rifle from the box room window, in order for it to end up in possession of Sheila Caffells body much later on, on the bedroom floor! If the police had no involvement in the movement of that rifle from one upstairs room to the other, then of course the only other person who could have carried out this exercise, in all of the circumstances, was Sheila Cavell herself...

I do not believe that if Jeremy Bamber have been the Killer,that he would have staged his sister's death scene on the parents bedroom floor, and place the anschutz rifle at the window of a box room next door to that bedroom, and expect to fool the police into believing that his sister had taken her own life, after she had shot and killed the other four victims!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 09:56:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Whoever had been responsible for placing the anshuzt rifle at the box room window, must have been the very same person who was responsible for switching lights on and off, or off and on, as well as be the person who collected the anshuzt rifle from the box room window, for it to end up in the next bedroom, in Sheila Caffell's possession, she only having been shot once by 8.44am, when viewed by Dr Craig, and after 9.05am when viewed by Stan Jones and Mick Clark - what this tells everyone is that Sheila did not get shot for the second time until Stan Jones and Mick Clark left the farmhouse that morning!

Now, with this in mind, the following falls to be considered..

(1) according to the pathologist, it was the second shot (bullet PV/19) that / which killed her

(2) when Stan Jones and Mick Clark left the scene they went with Jeremy to his cottage

(3) Sheila did not die as a result of the first shot (whenever it had been inflicted)

(4) did Sheila shoot herself with the anshuzt rifle after Stan Jones and Mick Clark and Jeremy left the scene

(5) was Sheila shot on the 2nd occasion during a police exercise ('informatives')

(6) who could have staged Sheila's body as a suicide after Stan Jones and Mick Clark had left the scene
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 10:10:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Linked to these 6 considerations is the fact that there were two different SOCO teams engaged in photographing and videoing the crime scene on that first morning, and that sandwiched in-between the duties both SOCO teams performed, was an hour long training exercise, orchestrated at the behest of senior officers in attendance at the scene between 9.00am and 10.00am, known as 'informatives', at which time the victims bodies were moved, along with other key exhibits, such as the anshuzt rifle and other weapons, together with furniture, and clothing...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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As if to highlight the potential involvement in the death of Sheila Caffell by the police, consider the following anomalies:-
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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As if to highlight the potential involvement in the death of Sheila Caffell by the police, consider the following anomalies:-

How come that at 8.44am when Dr Craig pronounced Sheila dead her body was laid on the far side of the bed, and by that stage there was only a single bullet entry wound to her neck? There was still only one bullet entry wound to Sheila's neck when Stan Jones and Mick Clark viewed Sheila's body at just after 9.05am - yet according to all the witness statements made by firearms officers who found Sheila dead on the parents bedroom floor she had already been shot twice in the neck?

How can this be true?

How could Sheila have been already shot twice and have two bullet entry wounds to her neck when the firearms officers who entered the farmhouse had first come across her body on the bedroom floor, and she be in possession of the only rifle found upstairs which at around 7.15am had been resting against the box room window, and all this be true, if what Dr Craig said at 8.44am, and what Stan Jones and Mick Clark both said at around 9.05am?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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How come that at 8.44am when Dr Craig pronounced Sheila dead her body was laid on the far side of the bed, and by that stage there was only a single bullet entry wound to her neck? There was still only one bullet entry wound to Sheila's neck when Stan Jones and Mick Clark viewed Sheila's body at just after 9.05am - yet according to all the witness statements made by firearms officers who found Sheila dead on the parents bedroom floor she had already been shot twice in the neck?

How can this be true?

How could Sheila have been already shot twice and have two bullet entry wounds to her neck when the firearms officers who entered the farmhouse had first come across her body on the bedroom floor, and she be in possession of the only rifle found upstairs which at around 7.15am had been resting against the box room window, and all this be true, if what Dr Craig said at 8.44am, and what Stan Jones and Mick Clark both said at around 9.05am?

How did Dr Craig (8.44am) and Stan Jones and Mick Clark (9.05am) miss this:-

if Sheila had already been shot twice by 8.44am and 9.05am, they would have clearly noticed it - and in both instances there was no gun barrel resting against the left side of Sheila Caffell's neck!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 10:33:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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If Sheila had been found already dead on the bedroom floor, as opposed to the kitchen downstairs, or on top of the bed in her parents room, when first stumbled upon by the firearms officers, in possession of the anshuzt rifle, and she already having received the second instaneously fatal shot to her neck, this would have to have been the case by 8.10am that morning, because according to the contents of the variously timed log contents police reported that five dead bodies had been found at that specific time!

So, firearms officers find Sheila's body on the bedroom floor in possession of the anshuzt rifle, she has been shot twice to the neck and she is dead!

So, how come that by the time PC bird starts to take photographs of Sheila's two wounds (after 11.00am) that the wounds and the blood flow from the two wounds does not have the consistency of someone having been shot and killed off around three hours previously?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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If Sheila had been found already dead on the bedroom floor, as opposed to the kitchen downstairs, or on top of the bed in her parents room, when first stumbled upon by the firearms officers, in possession of the anshuzt rifle, and she already having received the second instaneously fatal shot to her neck, this would have to have been the case by 8.10am that morning, because according to the contents of the variously timed log contents police reported that five dead bodies had been found at that specific time!

So, firearms officers find Sheila's body on the bedroom floor in possession of the anshuzt rifle, she has been shot twice to the neck and she is dead!

So, how come that by the time PC bird starts to take photographs of Sheila's two wounds (after 11.00am) that the wounds and the blood flow from the two wounds does not have the consistency of someone having been shot and killed off around three hours previously?

There is no way that Sheila Caffell had already been shot twice by 8.10am...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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There is no way that Sheila Caffell had already been shot twice by 8.10am...

With this in mind, it stands to reason and common sense that Jeremy Bamber did not shoot dead his sister with the .22 semi-automatic anshuzt rifle, because he had no access to the farmhouse and was in the company of various police officers from 3.52am that morning!  So please, let's examine what we can deduce from this fact?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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With this in mind, it stands to reason and common sense that Jeremy Bamber did not shoot dead his sister with the .22 semi-automatic anshuzt rifle, because he had no access to the farmhouse and was in the company of various police officers from 3.52am that morning!  So please, let's examine what we can deduce from this fact?

If Jeremy Bamber killed his sister by shooting her dead with use of the .22 semi-automatic anshuzt rifle, and he staged her death on his parents bedroom floor in possession of the rifle which he had used to shoot her twice with, he would have needed to have done all of these things prior to 3.52am that morning!

Now, look again at the crime scene photograph, does this look like somebody who has been shot and killed off more than 7 hours previously?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 10:51:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...