Author Topic: Video re photographs non-disclosure  (Read 94685 times)

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Offline gringo

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #150 on: August 04, 2018, 04:12:AM »
It's taken you ALL night to come up with this?  ;D ;D ;D ;D

In Birds OWN WORDS in an interview with CAL - Bird stated that it was only the second time he had acted as photographer. He was undertaking a course when the murders occurred but had been in the force since 1976. Clearly he had had other duties prior to the Bull case. The FACT that WHF was only the second time he had acted as photographer means he was NOT the specialist as you have been claiming he was. Yes, I was wrong about the the course - I concede that however, I have maintained that he was not a professional, experienced, specialist photographer and as it was ONLY the second time he had undertaken the role - your claim and the claim of the CT is not only misleading, it is completely WRONG!

It is stupid of you to try suggest that I posted only part of the COLP statement for underhanded reasons when the full thing is readily available on the forum. The fact is, that Bird was NOT an experienced photographer which is what I said all along and you have claimed he was! By the way, I think I made it clear that Bird didn't describe himself as a specialist and HE made it clear it wasn't his main job. However, you have been arguing that he was a professional - a specialist and now that has been shown to be not the case, you're making it about me! Just concede he wasn't the specialist you thought he was - it won't hurt!
   PC Bird: There was three of us as that specialist role.
      Wrong yet again, at least you're consistent.
     You have shifted position massively, made a number of demonstrably false and misleading statements, as I have highlighted, and you have fallen way short of demonstrating anything.
     You have used partial transcripts which give a false impression and then denied doing so for underhanded reasons without offering a reasonable explanation why you did. The transcripts  demonstrated the opposite of what you claim when read in full. It seems apparent that your intent was to give a misleading impression of PC Birds role.
     
      PC Bird, contrary to your ridiculous and ever evolving argument, has unequivocally been demonstrated to be the specialist/professional claimed.
      The only reason that you ever attempted to advance this specious argument was to make the thoroughly unsupported claim that the reason for hundreds of missing negatives was because Bird was some sort of random officer assigned the duties with no training.
      The excerpt that you posted from the CAL book, which you apparently place more store in than the COLP interview and court transcript, is not particularly clear and if you posted a fuller version we could interpret it more accurately.
     For instance; "Cook was accompanied by Detective Constable Bird, who joined the force in 1976, working on murder photography and chemical treatments as part of a crime scene investigation course. The Bamber case was his second as photographer while he was engaged on the lab treatment..."
    Was he working on murder photography and chemical treatments in 1976 when he joined or 1985.
Is the qualifying "while he was engaged on the lab treatment." there for a reason. Is CAL saying that it was only his second case ever as a photographer or his second while engaged on the lab treatment.
    Does CAL mention any other courses. Is CAL a reliable source?
    Do you believe CAL's murder porn is a better source than COLP interviews and the court transcript which make crystal clear that the role that PC Bird normally fulfilled as a police officer was Police Photographer and that he was unequivocally a specialist in this role. These points are made explicitly.
     
 

Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #151 on: August 04, 2018, 04:28:AM »
   PC Bird: There was three of us as that specialist role.
      Wrong yet again, at least you're consistent.
     You have shifted position massively, made a number of demonstrably false and misleading statements, as I have highlighted, and you have fallen way short of demonstrating anything.
     You have used partial transcripts which give a false impression and then denied doing so for underhanded reasons without offering a reasonable explanation why you did. The transcripts  demonstrated the opposite of what you claim when read in full. It seems apparent that your intent was to give a misleading impression of PC Birds role.
     
      PC Bird, contrary to your ridiculous and ever evolving argument, has unequivocally been demonstrated to be the specialist/professional claimed.
      The only reason that you ever attempted to advance this specious argument was to make the thoroughly unsupported claim that the reason for hundreds of missing negatives was because Bird was some sort of random officer assigned the duties with no training.
      The excerpt that you posted from the CAL book, which you apparently place more store in than the COLP interview and court transcript, is not particularly clear and if you posted a fuller version we could interpret it more accurately.
     For instance; "Cook was accompanied by Detective Constable Bird, who joined the force in 1976, working on murder photography and chemical treatments as part of a crime scene investigation course. The Bamber case was his second as photographer while he was engaged on the lab treatment..."
    Was he working on murder photography and chemical treatments in 1976 when he joined or 1985.
Is the qualifying "while he was engaged on the lab treatment." there for a reason. Is CAL saying that it was only his second case ever as a photographer or his second while engaged on the lab treatment.
    Does CAL mention any other courses. Is CAL a reliable source?
    Do you believe CAL's murder porn is a better source than COLP interviews and the court transcript which make crystal clear that the role that PC Bird normally fulfilled as a police officer was Police Photographer and that he was unequivocally a specialist in this role. These points are made explicitly.
   

She interviewed him PERSONALLY - You are showing yourself up! Seriously - give it up!  ::)
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Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #152 on: August 04, 2018, 04:48:AM »
The testimonies of lead figures from the 1985–6 enquiry have helped shed new light on those involved as well as on the investigation itself. I thank especially Mike Ainsley, Ron Cook, , Neil Davidson, Chris Bews and Steve Myall. Sadly, several retired officers have passed away recentlyDave Bird, including Bob Miller, whom I interviewed

Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm: Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation. (p. 419). Pan Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

She has formerly acknowledged his contribution and you calling the book 'Murder porn' is just silly and ridiculous and frankly, I didn't think you could sink this low in order to try and win a debate. Bird wasn't a specialist FACT!
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Offline Adam

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #153 on: August 04, 2018, 07:14:AM »
Nugs is also going to get a source from CAL & inform the forum of his indevours.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jane

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #154 on: August 04, 2018, 07:58:AM »
   PC Bird: There was three of us as that specialist role.
      Wrong yet again, at least you're consistent.
     You have shifted position massively, made a number of demonstrably false and misleading statements, as I have highlighted, and you have fallen way short of demonstrating anything.
     You have used partial transcripts which give a false impression and then denied doing so for underhanded reasons without offering a reasonable explanation why you did. The transcripts  demonstrated the opposite of what you claim when read in full. It seems apparent that your intent was to give a misleading impression of PC Birds role.
     
      PC Bird, contrary to your ridiculous and ever evolving argument, has unequivocally been demonstrated to be the specialist/professional claimed.
      The only reason that you ever attempted to advance this specious argument was to make the thoroughly unsupported claim that the reason for hundreds of missing negatives was because Bird was some sort of random officer assigned the duties with no training.
      The excerpt that you posted from the CAL book, which you apparently place more store in than the COLP interview and court transcript, is not particularly clear and if you posted a fuller version we could interpret it more accurately.
     For instance; "Cook was accompanied by Detective Constable Bird, who joined the force in 1976, working on murder photography and chemical treatments as part of a crime scene investigation course. The Bamber case was his second as photographer while he was engaged on the lab treatment..."
    Was he working on murder photography and chemical treatments in 1976 when he joined or 1985.
Is the qualifying "while he was engaged on the lab treatment." there for a reason. Is CAL saying that it was only his second case ever as a photographer or his second while engaged on the lab treatment.
    Does CAL mention any other courses. Is CAL a reliable source?
    Do you believe CAL's murder porn is a better source than COLP interviews and the court transcript which make crystal clear that the role that PC Bird normally fulfilled as a police officer was Police Photographer and that he was unequivocally a specialist in this role. These points are made explicitly.
   


How many more ways can you find to repeat this cant which has no more value than your need to make a point -or should that be, to get one over?- to which end you're now playing semantics. I'm reminded of a line from Macbeth -"Told by an idiot. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".

Offline gringo

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #155 on: August 04, 2018, 10:49:AM »

How many more ways can you find to repeat this cant which has no more value than your need to make a point -or should that be, to get one over?- to which end you're now playing semantics. I'm reminded of a line from Macbeth -"Told by an idiot. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".
   It isn't me who is playing semantics. You misrepresented the COLP interview and deny the court transcript,both of which state his expertise and role.
     Specialist police photographer in case you missed it.
    You claimed he was neither.
    Do you still claim that the large number of unusable photographs was because he was neither a photographer nor a specialist?

Offline Jane

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #156 on: August 04, 2018, 11:02:AM »
   It isn't me who is playing semantics. You misrepresented the COLP interview and deny the court transcript,both of which state his expertise and role.
     Specialist police photographer in case you missed it.
    You claimed he was neither.
    Do you still claim that the large number of unusable photographs was because he was neither a photographer nor a specialist?

It's my belief that each time he was pressed for an answer, he avoided using the word "specialist". Everything else appears to be down to your own over-use of words to cover your own flaws and misrepresentations. I'm not going to commit myself to claiming anything unequivocally. The most I'm prepared to do is offer possibilities, ONE of which MAY have been that for some reason the photographs were deemed to be unusable......................which has nothing to do with his status, either amateur or professional.

Offline gringo

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #157 on: August 04, 2018, 11:23:AM »
She interviewed him PERSONALLY - You are showing yourself up! Seriously - give it up!  ::)
  So did COLP and Mr. Munday in the court proceedings.
     Your attempt to demonstrate that the unusable photographs were because of Bird's incompetence and the fact that he had no training no longer holds any water. You have misrepresented and demonstrably made up arguments throughout the thread.
      Where did you get the gem that Bird had done no courses from? CAL? or did you just make it up because it suited your argument?
      Likewise, your claim that nowhere in the COLP interview was Bird referred to as specialist despite it being mentioned several times. Can you not read very well or did you deliberately mislead?
      You later changed this claim subtly to say that Bird had not himself called his role specialist. But this was also shown to be untrue as he had also several times referred to himself as a specialist and a photographer. Again either your reading ability or honesty is falling short. Which one is it?
     Your projection onto me of your own fury is laughable. Were I to be furiously banging away at a keyboard, steam billowing from my ears then I would probably type posts that needed moderating or end up getting banned for a period. This has never happened to me.
     Can you claim likewise?

Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #158 on: August 04, 2018, 12:38:PM »
  So did COLP and Mr. Munday in the court proceedings.
     Your attempt to demonstrate that the unusable photographs were because of Bird's incompetence and the fact that he had no training no longer holds any water. You have misrepresented and demonstrably made up arguments throughout the thread.
      Where did you get the gem that Bird had done no courses from? CAL? or did you just make it up because it suited your argument?
      Likewise, your claim that nowhere in the COLP interview was Bird referred to as specialist despite it being mentioned several times. Can you not read very well or did you deliberately mislead?
      You later changed this claim subtly to say that Bird had not himself called his role specialist. But this was also shown to be untrue as he had also several times referred to himself as a specialist and a photographer. Again either your reading ability or honesty is falling short. Which one is it?
     Your projection onto me of your own fury is laughable. Were I to be furiously banging away at a keyboard, steam billowing from my ears then I would probably type posts that needed moderating or end up getting banned for a period. This has never happened to me.
     Can you claim likewise?

Are you still trying to convince the masses (LOL) that Bird was a professional after now knowing it was only his second time as a photographer? Silly Billy!  ;D ;D ;D ;D Would you get on a plane if you knew the pilot was only on his second flight EVER?  Would you go under the knife if you knew the surgeon had previously only done one operation? It's not a case of him being 'incompetent' (which is YOUR word by the way), he just wasn't experienced.

It doesn't matter how much you try and switch your argument, the point that is relevant to the CASE is how much experience Bird had as a photographer and he had almost none.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 12:57:PM by Caroline »
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Offline gringo

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #159 on: August 04, 2018, 02:38:PM »
Are you still trying to convince the masses (LOL) that Bird was a professional after now knowing it was only his second time as a photographer? Silly Billy!  ;D ;D ;D ;D Would you get on a plane if you knew the pilot was only on his second flight EVER?  Would you go under the knife if you knew the surgeon had previously only done one operation? It's not a case of him being 'incompetent' (which is YOUR word by the way), he just wasn't experienced.

It doesn't matter how much you try and switch your argument, the point that is relevant to the CASE is how much experience Bird had as a photographer and he had almost none.
   No I'm just giving you enough rope to hang yourself which you have managed very well thank you.
 

Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #160 on: August 04, 2018, 02:47:PM »
   No I'm just giving you enough rope to hang yourself which you have managed very well thank you.
 

Another one in COMPLETE denial - twice in the role of photographer does not make anyone a 'specialist'. If anyone is hanging, it's you!
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Offline lookout

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #161 on: August 04, 2018, 03:02:PM »
Why must supporters always be " in denial ?" Denial of what exactly ?

Offline gringo

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #162 on: August 04, 2018, 03:03:PM »
Another one in COMPLETE denial - twice in the role of photographer does not make anyone a 'specialist'. If anyone is hanging, it's you!
   Because Carole Ann Lee is a far more reliable source than COLP and the court transcript. You got caught making things up and then changed your story, again.

     
     
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIiBLgQlhfQ

Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #163 on: August 04, 2018, 03:11:PM »
   Because Carole Ann Lee is a far more reliable source than COLP and the court transcript. You got caught making things up and then changed your story, again.

     
     
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIiBLgQlhfQ

So she's lying? I make things up and Bird was a specialist? OK silly man - you're just making yourself look foolish!  ;D ;D
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Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #164 on: August 04, 2018, 03:28:PM »
I see you're still going on  ::)

Posted this in Julie Mugford but it really belongs here!

Right back at you! This started as a discussion about Bird, I didn't think he was a specialist photographer and as this is a discussion forum, I posted my thoughts. You then (in your usual angry, supercilious fashion), decided to add personal insults and put-downs. As things went on and it became clear that Bird was inexperienced, you dug your heels in further and made the whole thing about me - spurred on by Lookout. I'm well aware of how stubborn I am but I will also admit when I'm wrong, I was wrong about the training but my original and MAIN argument turned out to be correct. Even now, when it's clear that Bird was inexperienced, having played the role of photographer twice - you still can't admit that maybe he wasn't as experienced as is being portrayed.  ::)
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