Author Topic: Video re photographs non-disclosure  (Read 94585 times)

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Offline IndigoJ

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #135 on: August 03, 2018, 09:35:PM »
But don't you believe him?

I dont know

Offline IndigoJ

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #136 on: August 03, 2018, 09:37:PM »
Ha! There we go again!! "They SHOULD....." How does that change anything? What were they going to do? Call Jeremy a liar? Tell him to wait while they verified his story?

yes tell him to wait while they verified his story , you bet

Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #137 on: August 03, 2018, 10:17:PM »
yes tell him to wait while they verified his story , you bet
How were they going to do that?
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Offline IndigoJ

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #138 on: August 03, 2018, 10:44:PM »
How were they going to do that?

i didnt mean literally wait that second, but they should have investigated it with an open mind , which they didn't

Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #139 on: August 03, 2018, 10:49:PM »
i didnt mean literally wait that second, but they should have investigated it with an open mind , which they didn't

Jones did, he didn't believe Jeremy. So if anyone was at fault, it was Taff Jones who believed Jeremy from the beginning.
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Offline gringo

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #140 on: August 03, 2018, 10:51:PM »
Gringo, it's easy for you to go away and do some research on what type of training police SOCO's received - and you were the FIRST to throw insults whether you have had posts removed or not.

This is goading .....
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9559.msg444042.html#msg444042

This is rude ......

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9559.msg444079.html#msg444079

I at least have provided a source to support my argument - you have provided nothing other than your usual rude, supercilious responses. Clearly you're too good for Wikipedia - nevertheless, that doesn't mean the information is wrong and if you bother do some research, you will find it most certainly IS'NT!

Think you dog might need another walk before you answer!  ;D ;D
   I will rely on my own judgement regards rudeness and goading and certainly wouldn't need the advice of someone with such a demonstrably poor record.
     Your source doesn't support or even refer to anything remotely supporting your argument. There is one reference to 1968 and a few paragraphs which add nothing to the debate.
     The evidence that I used was the excerpts that you posted. The actual interview excerpts where it is unambiguously stated that he is a photographer, several times.
     There is very little available of any real detail on crime scene photography. I had a read last night trying to get to the bottom of it. It is apparent that you found very little also hence the irrelevant wikipedia link. What is clear is that the quality of crime scene photography was of a professional standard in the 1980's. It was a large part of the prosecution case quite often. Presentation of crime scene photographs was much more sophisticated by the 1980's.
     The interview excerpts seem the best evidence here and from those it is clear that Bird is a "specialist". Supt. McKay tells us this as does Bird. He compiles the albums for presentation to the court.
It is simply not credible that hundreds of crime scene photographs are unusable because of a lack of competence, professionalism, training or what ever other piss poor argument you use.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #141 on: August 03, 2018, 10:59:PM »
   I will rely on my own judgement regards rudeness and goading and certainly wouldn't need the advice of someone with such a demonstrably poor record.
     Your source doesn't support or even refer to anything remotely supporting your argument. There is one reference to 1968 and a few paragraphs which add nothing to the debate.
     The evidence that I used was the excerpts that you posted. The actual interview excerpts where it is unambiguously stated that he is a photographer, several times.
     There is very little available of any real detail on crime scene photography. I had a read last night trying to get to the bottom of it. It is apparent that you found very little also hence the irrelevant wikipedia link. What is clear is that the quality of crime scene photography was of a professional standard in the 1980's. It was a large part of the prosecution case quite often. Presentation of crime scene photographs was much more sophisticated by the 1980's.
     The interview excerpts seem the best evidence here and from those it is clear that Bird is a "specialist". Supt. McKay tells us this as does Bird. He compiles the albums for presentation to the court.
It is simply not credible that hundreds of crime scene photographs are unusable because of a lack of competence, professionalism, training or what ever other piss poor argument you use.

And I will use mine!

So Bird wasn't a police officer?
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Offline gringo

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #142 on: August 03, 2018, 11:32:PM »
And I will use mine!

So Bird wasn't a police officer?
   Who said that PC Bird wasn't a police officer?

   I have just read the trial transcript of PC Bird.
   Examined by Mr. Munday, first question:

   Q. Mr. Bird, what role do you normally fulfil as a police officer?
   A. Police Photographer.
   

Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #143 on: August 03, 2018, 11:50:PM »
   Who said that PC Bird wasn't a police officer?

   I have just read the trial transcript of PC Bird.
   Examined by Mr. Munday, first question:

   Q. Mr. Bird, what role do you normally fulfil as a police officer?
   A. Police Photographer.
 

I have just read his interview with CAL - in 1985, he was undertaking a course on police photography and chemical treatments - the Bamber case was only the SECOND time he had fulfilled the role as a photographer! Specialist?

The last Scene of Crime officers arrived. Detective Inspector Ron Cook joined the police in 1958 and became a fingerprint officer in 1964. Seventeen years later he was promoted to Detective Inspector and was one of two deputies working at SOCO in Chelmsford under DCI Charles ‘Geordie’ Wright. Cook was accompanied by Detective Constable David Bird, who joined the force in 1976, working on murder photography and chemical treatments as part of a crime scene investigation course. The Bamber case was his second as photographer while he was engaged on the lab treatment. Along with Chris Bews and Taff Jones, Bird had recently worked on the Bull murder in Coggeshall. When told at headquarters to collect five post-mortem kits for White House Farm, he assumed it was a wind-up: ‘Then I looked at the superintendent’s face and saw

Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm: Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation. (pp. 179-180). Pan Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 12:12:AM by Caroline »
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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #144 on: August 04, 2018, 12:01:AM »
He was also there on Tuesday 10th September when the investigation turned to five murders.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #145 on: August 04, 2018, 12:03:AM »
He was also there on Tuesday 10th September when the investigation turned to five murders.

He'd had a bit more practice by then  ;D
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 12:12:AM by Caroline »
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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #146 on: August 04, 2018, 12:17:AM »
CAL Chapter 40

Constable Golding gave evidence about the security of the farmhouse windows, after which Detective Constable David Bird was sworn in. "I was in the box for forty-five minutes", Bird reflects. "They asked me if I'd taken the photographs and if I could have a look at them. I'd put my photographic album into sequence according to each negative I'd taken and numbered the pages, but I nearly had a heart attack when I opened the album and had to explain: "Excuse me, these aren't in the order I put them in." It took virtually all my time in the witness box to put them right."

Queried about the different positions of Sheila's hand in the crime scene shots, he clarified that both photographs were taken at the same time, but Detective Inspector Cook had moved her hand "because he wanted to show the mark on the nightdress". He was also questioned about a photograph in which the rifle could be seen leaning against the master bedroom window. Bird told the court: "I had finished taking photographs in the main bedroom. I had come out and photographed the top landing, and I stood in the middle of the upper set of stairs and took that photograph up there." He hadn't been present when the gun had been moved from Sheila's body.

Offline gringo

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #147 on: August 04, 2018, 02:00:AM »
I have just read his interview with CAL - in 1985, he was undertaking a course on police photography and chemical treatments - the Bamber case was only the SECOND time he had fulfilled the role as a photographer! Specialist?

The last Scene of Crime officers arrived. Detective Inspector Ron Cook joined the police in 1958 and became a fingerprint officer in 1964. Seventeen years later he was promoted to Detective Inspector and was one of two deputies working at SOCO in Chelmsford under DCI Charles ‘Geordie’ Wright. Cook was accompanied by Detective Constable David Bird, who joined the force in 1976, working on murder photography and chemical treatments as part of a crime scene investigation course. The Bamber case was his second as photographer while he was engaged on the lab treatment. Along with Chris Bews and Taff Jones, Bird had recently worked on the Bull murder in Coggeshall. When told at headquarters to collect five post-mortem kits for White House Farm, he assumed it was a wind-up: ‘Then I looked at the superintendent’s face and saw

Lee, Carol Ann. The Murders at White House Farm: Jeremy Bamber and the killing of his family. The definitive investigation. (pp. 179-180). Pan Macmillan. Kindle Edition.
    Your evidence as usual doesn't support the assertions that you make.
    It is also worth noting that your earlier claims have all but evaporated to be replaced, not quite seamlessly, with your new inaccurate interpretations. Previously you have claimed that Bird wasn't a specialist;
         Both of the following statements are yours made earlier in this thread.
        "back then they didn't do a specific course."
        "Does nine weeks make you a specialist? Well, it's not even nine weeks really as photography is only PART of the course and Bird didn't even do the course( it wasn't a requirement back then)"

     Now you claim that he was undertaking a course in 1985 and that because it was supposedly only the second time he had fulfilled the role of photographer that this calls into question his role as a specialist.
From the quote given it appears that Bird was undertaking the course in 1976 when he joined EP but as usual you have given only part of it.
      Likewise the claim of it being only his second time fulfilling the role is unclear from what you have posted but regardless of this, at what point do you become a specialist? Perhaps if we put back into context the original notes that you posted. Here is a more informative and complete section of the COLP interview including the excerpts that you posted earlier:

    Supt. McKay: And with the greatest respect to you you were there as a photographer
    PC Bird:        I was down at the other end of the command chain, so to speak. Well I was, there's
                        nobody lower than me, the van driver and the photographer
    Supt. McKay: And then ...
    DS Young:     Actually could I clarify that bit. Am I right in saying that it's actual your, when you were
                        headquarters, it was your specialist role for major incidents.
   PC Bird:         There was three of us as that specialist role.
   Supt. McKay: Of taking photographs
   PC Bird:         Yeah
   DS Young:      Of major incidents
   PC Bird:         We do all the chemical treatment at headquarters and as and when a major incident
                        come up that they required a photographer we was on a rota basis the three of us, and
                        it was just the luck of the draw which one you get.
   Supt. McKay:  Was that sort of 24 hour cover was it David
   PC Bird:         Yeah we took it in turns to provide a 24 hour cover.
   DS Young:      Thank you

    I think you are out on a limb with this one and we are left to wonder why you didn't post the entire section. The following also by you:
      Nothing wrong with my comprehension but YOU, like the video are exaggerating the guys qualifications. The man was a POLICE OFFICER NOT A PHOTOGRAPHER and PHOTOGRAPHY WAS NOT HIS MAIN JOB. Unless you are blind, unable to read or making an attempt to deliberately have people believe he was a professional photographer - he states this in his interview! You're the one misinterpreting NO WHERE does it state that he is a specialist or a professional photographer. 
     Why did you make this misleading statement?
     The excerpt that I have transcribed above must have been read by you because you posted snippets from it. There is an extended conversation about his "specialist" role and an explanation of the 24 hour cover. You deny that it is ever stated that he is a specialist which demonstrates your poor comprehension or something else maybe.   

     

Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #148 on: August 04, 2018, 02:40:AM »
    Your evidence as usual doesn't support the assertions that you make.
    It is also worth noting that your earlier claims have all but evaporated to be replaced, not quite seamlessly, with your new inaccurate interpretations. Previously you have claimed that Bird wasn't a specialist;
         Both of the following statements are yours made earlier in this thread.
        "back then they didn't do a specific course."
        "Does nine weeks make you a specialist? Well, it's not even nine weeks really as photography is only PART of the course and Bird didn't even do the course( it wasn't a requirement back then)"

     Now you claim that he was undertaking a course in 1985 and that because it was supposedly only the second time he had fulfilled the role of photographer that this calls into question his role as a specialist.
From the quote given it appears that Bird was undertaking the course in 1976 when he joined EP but as usual you have given only part of it.
      Likewise the claim of it being only his second time fulfilling the role is unclear from what you have posted but regardless of this, at what point do you become a specialist? Perhaps if we put back into context the original notes that you posted. Here is a more informative and complete section of the COLP interview including the excerpts that you posted earlier:

    Supt. McKay: And with the greatest respect to you you were there as a photographer
    PC Bird:        I was down at the other end of the command chain, so to speak. Well I was, there's
                        nobody lower than me, the van driver and the photographer
    Supt. McKay: And then ...
    DS Young:     Actually could I clarify that bit. Am I right in saying that it's actual your, when you were
                        headquarters, it was your specialist role for major incidents.
   PC Bird:         There was three of us as that specialist role.
   Supt. McKay: Of taking photographs
   PC Bird:         Yeah
   DS Young:      Of major incidents
   PC Bird:         We do all the chemical treatment at headquarters and as and when a major incident
                        come up that they required a photographer we was on a rota basis the three of us, and
                        it was just the luck of the draw which one you get.
   Supt. McKay:  Was that sort of 24 hour cover was it David
   PC Bird:         Yeah we took it in turns to provide a 24 hour cover.
   DS Young:      Thank you

    I think you are out on a limb with this one and we are left to wonder why you didn't post the entire section. The following also by you:
      Nothing wrong with my comprehension but YOU, like the video are exaggerating the guys qualifications. The man was a POLICE OFFICER NOT A PHOTOGRAPHER and PHOTOGRAPHY WAS NOT HIS MAIN JOB. Unless you are blind, unable to read or making an attempt to deliberately have people believe he was a professional photographer - he states this in his interview! You're the one misinterpreting NO WHERE does it state that he is a specialist or a professional photographer. 
     Why did you make this misleading statement?
     The excerpt that I have transcribed above must have been read by you because you posted snippets from it. There is an extended conversation about his "specialist" role and an explanation of the 24 hour cover. You deny that it is ever stated that he is a specialist which demonstrates your poor comprehension or something else maybe.   

     

It's taken you ALL night to come up with this?  ;D ;D ;D ;D

In Birds OWN WORDS in an interview with CAL - Bird stated that it was only the second time he had acted as photographer. He was undertaking a course when the murders occurred but had been in the force since 1976. Clearly he had had other duties prior to the Bull case. The FACT that WHF was only the second time he had acted as photographer means he was NOT the specialist as you have been claiming he was. Yes, I was wrong about the the course - I concede that however, I have maintained that he was not a professional, experienced, specialist photographer and as it was ONLY the second time he had undertaken the role - your claim and the claim of the CT is not only misleading, it is completely WRONG!

It is stupid of you to try suggest that I posted only part of the COLP statement for underhanded reasons when the full thing is readily available on the forum. The fact is, that Bird was NOT an experienced photographer which is what I said all along and you have claimed he was! By the way, I think I made it clear that Bird didn't describe himself as a specialist and HE made it clear it wasn't his main job. However, you have been arguing that he was a professional - a specialist and now that has been shown to be not the case, you're making it about me! Just concede he wasn't the specialist you thought he was - it won't hurt!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 02:47:AM by Caroline »
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Offline Caroline

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Re: Video re photographs non-disclosure
« Reply #149 on: August 04, 2018, 02:58:AM »
experienced
?k?sp??r??nst,?k?sp??r??nst/Submit
adjective
adjective: experienced
having gained knowledge or skill in a particular field over time.

I don't think twice cuts it?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2018, 03:29:AM by Caroline »
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