Author Topic: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"  (Read 8020 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33781
"What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« on: February 27, 2018, 09:50:AM »
These, surely would have been a few of the questions asked by the relatives of a murdered family. Let's take a minute to look at what we'd have wanted to hear in the first minutes of hearing such terrible information. Would we have wanted to learn that mother and daughter had been shot to a bloody pulp and left, like discarded rag dolls on the floor, or might we have preferred to hear that they were laying side by side, on the bed. It makes them no less dead, but may conjure up a slightly more acceptable image, in the same way that it was appropriate to tell them that one of the little boys still had his thumb in his mouth, as opposed to telling them that the child's head was destroyed. The whole truth of the terrible injuries could wait until such time that the relatives could properly process it. It seems to me, that what was done as an act of kindness -to soften an horrendous blow- has been distorted beyond all recognition and turned into an act of deliberate deception.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2018, 10:22:AM »
And only a mad/insane person would create a carnage such as was found. Was JB the mad /insane one ?
The answer is NO !

Not enough background questions were ever asked of the relatives. Their own business and financial backgrounds,etc. Neither did they ask any questions except about their lines of inheritance.
From the word go JB was vilified without question.

Jane,it cuts no ice with me that you've made a veiled attempt to try and cover up the fact that both women were found on the bed instead of admitting that the bodies had been moved. I like a straight person,not one who says something because it sounds more acceptable,but one who speaks the truth because I'm immediately on my guard from someone who paints a different picture------it's not the truth,which then makes you wonder how much of what they say or tell you is going to be the truth.
No matter how bad something is,or sounds,it's far better to give a straight and honest account than " add sugar " to it. My trust would well and truly have fizzled at that point. It's no better than the media creating sensationalism through their fabrications of a situation.

It wasn't " kind " to have described how/where everyone died. It was a downright lie told by someone whose brain was distorted and whose goal it had been to have the relatives on his side. What a crafty and cunning trick SJ had played !! 

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33781
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2018, 10:50:AM »
And only a mad/insane person would create a carnage such as was found. Was JB the mad /insane one ?
The answer is NO !

Not enough background questions were ever asked of the relatives. Their own business and financial backgrounds,etc. Neither did they ask any questions except about their lines of inheritance.
From the word go JB was vilified without question.

Jane,it cuts no ice with me that you've made a veiled attempt to try and cover up the fact that both women were found on the bed instead of admitting that the bodies had been moved. I like a straight person,not one who says something because it sounds more acceptable,but one who speaks the truth because I'm immediately on my guard from someone who paints a different picture------it's not the truth,which then makes you wonder how much of what they say or tell you is going to be the truth.
No matter how bad something is,or sounds,it's far better to give a straight and honest account than " add sugar " to it. My trust would well and truly have fizzled at that point. It's no better than the media creating sensationalism through their fabrications of a situation.

It wasn't " kind " to have described how/where everyone died. It was a downright lie told by someone whose brain was distorted and whose goal it had been to have the relatives on his side. What a crafty and cunning trick SJ had played !!


Lookout, your first two paragraphs have absolutely nothing to do with the point I was trying to make, ie what was the best way of describing, to relatives, the crime scene.

As usual, you're making this about you, but surely, by now, you must understand that you come across as being rather different from others -in fact, you pride yourself in so being. You're taking the view that there was a deliberate attempt to hide that bodies may have been moved, whereas I see it as temporarily concealing a truth which may have been too difficult to take at that time. Something, I feel, MOST would be grateful for -we don't give a 4yr old a full breakdown of how conception occurs. We tell them what they can accept at that stage- because most aren't immediately as suspicious of others as you claim to be. I honestly can't see any harm being done by softening a blow, and I can't see that so doing would have made any adverse difference.

I don't believe -unless there is evidence of him having done similar on previous occasions- there was any 'monster' who deliberately deceived relatives in order to get them 'on side'. I see him as a man who acted with compassion towards people who probably could barely take on board what had befallen their family.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2018, 11:21:AM »

Lookout, your first two paragraphs have absolutely nothing to do with the point I was trying to make, ie what was the best way of describing, to relatives, the crime scene.

As usual, you're making this about you, but surely, by now, you must understand that you come across as being rather different from others -in fact, you pride yourself in so being. You're taking the view that there was a deliberate attempt to hide that bodies may have been moved, whereas I see it as temporarily concealing a truth which may have been too difficult to take at that time. Something, I feel, MOST would be grateful for -we don't give a 4yr old a full breakdown of how conception occurs. We tell them what they can accept at that stage- because most aren't immediately as suspicious of others as you claim to be. I honestly can't see any harm being done by softening a blow, and I can't see that so doing would have made any adverse difference.

I don't believe -unless there is evidence of him having done similar on previous occasions- there was any 'monster' who deliberately deceived relatives in order to get them 'on side'. I see him as a man who acted with compassion towards people who probably could barely take on board what had befallen their family.





Maybe it is that I have a better understanding than you have in most matters. Your way is to skim over the nitty-gritty and present something which is far removed from the actual facts.
The relatives took EP at their every word,whereas those who like myself would have at least asked questions,particularly as it was about a family member ( JB ) I'd have wanted to have known every twist and turn before committing myself in agreeing with SJ and the EP in general.

Considering the relatives knew nothing at all about JB or his family as they never saw each other much between Christmas's,how could they have immediately laid blame on JB ? So without knowing about Sheila and her problems,the relatives had been more than happy to focus their attention on JB------for VERY obvious reasons .   

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33781
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2018, 11:38:AM »




Maybe it is that I have a better understanding than you have in most matters. Your way is to skim over the nitty-gritty and present something which is far removed from the actual facts.
The relatives took EP at their every word,whereas those who like myself would have at least asked questions,particularly as it was about a family member ( JB ) I'd have wanted to have known every twist and turn before committing myself in agreeing with SJ and the EP in general.

Considering the relatives knew nothing at all about JB or his family as they never saw each other much between Christmas's,how could they have immediately laid blame on JB ? So without knowing about Sheila and her problems,the relatives had been more than happy to focus their attention on JB------for VERY obvious reasons .

Lookout, you have less understanding of all things than -almost- anyone else I've ever known, if only because you use yourself and how you'd feel and react as your guideline and yardstick. You eagerness for the full facts from the off may suggest a lack of feelings. Whatever, I suspect it's not a true reflection of most, under those circumstances.

Given how much you claim to know of Jeremy -having known nothing of him until after the murders- I feel certain that the relatives have somewhat more inclusive knowledge of him, than you. I feel perfectly confident that the person you claim to know so very well, is a very different person from the one they experienced.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2018, 12:04:PM »
Lookout, you have less understanding of all things than -almost- anyone else I've ever known, if only because you use yourself and how you'd feel and react as your guideline and yardstick. You eagerness for the full facts from the off may suggest a lack of feelings. Whatever, I suspect it's not a true reflection of most, under those circumstances.

Given how much you claim to know of Jeremy -having known nothing of him until after the murders- I feel certain that the relatives have somewhat more inclusive knowledge of him, than you. I feel perfectly confident that the person you claim to know so very well, is a very different person from the one they experienced.






How can you say that I lack understanding and feeling ? On the contrary,it's you with your scathing comments/accusations that makes you the candidate, which is typical of those with their " Holier than thou " attitudes.
Lack of feelings because I happen to demand the full facts ? If someone was being hanged,wouldn't you want to know the full facts beforehand ?
My job was to get the full facts from the patients. What's wrong with that ?

Don't you know that everyone is different in every way ? Or don't they fit into your circle if they don't conform ?
Besides the relatives knowing a bit more about JB,they'd also know all about Sheila too as well as the underhandedness of JM ( although if they knew at the offset about JM it wouldn't have mattered to them as she came in handy )

 

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33781
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2018, 12:21:PM »





How can you say that I lack understanding and feeling ? On the contrary,it's you with your scathing comments/accusations that makes you the candidate, which is typical of those with their " Holier than thou " attitudes.
Lack of feelings because I happen to demand the full facts ? If someone was being hanged,wouldn't you want to know the full facts beforehand ?
My job was to get the full facts from the patients. What's wrong with that ?

Don't you know that everyone is different in every way ? Or don't they fit into your circle if they don't conform ?
Besides the relatives knowing a bit more about JB,they'd also know all about Sheila too as well as the underhandedness of JM ( although if they knew at the offset about JM it wouldn't have mattered to them as she came in handy )

 

With your belief in your unchallengeable rightness in all things, along with your unique brand of empathy, I fail to see just how much more 'Holier than YOU" it's possible to be!!

Lookout, I'm FULLY aware that everyone is different -whether it be YOUR patients, or MY clients. The marked difference is that I don't expect my clients to think, feel or act in any other way than how it feels right for them, whereas your own view seems to be that your way -and ONLY your way- is correct. I also believe that to cement that 'correctness' there's a strong possibility that you'll throw in a few 'truths' of your own and hope you'll get away with not be challenged on them.

Regarding what you clearly believe the relatives knew -or didn't- please explain, if they never saw Jeremy, how was it that they were in such close cahoots with Julie? How would they have got to know her? They could hardly have 'reined' her in immediately post murders as she was on Jeremy's side and appeared to cling to him like glue. I'm no mind reader so I won't speculate on what relatives thought about Julie.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2018, 12:55:PM »
Why didn't you post that little gem in the right thread ?
 That " the relatives were in cahoots with Julie ". Strange how they weren't the other day when discussing solicitors  ::)

At least I'm not patronising !! I bet you thoroughly enjoy telling your " clients " what to do----in your way !!

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33781
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2018, 01:07:PM »
Why didn't you post that little gem in the right thread ?
 That " the relatives were in cahoots with Julie ". Strange how they weren't the other day when discussing solicitors  ::)

At least I'm not patronising !! I bet you thoroughly enjoy telling your " clients " what to do----in your way !!

Are you suggesting that any conversation, they may have had with Julie, is an indication of them being in cahoots with her? Really?

It appears that you're unaware of the irony in you referring to me as being patronizing ;D ;D Which of the two of us claims superiority in all things? Patient care? Psychiatry? Psychology? Motherhood? Might it be I? Hell, NO!! I'm still learning. The day I believe there's nothing more for me to learn will be the day when the time has come to give up.

It's not the job of counselors to tell clients what to do. MANY seek counseling as a result of being told what to do. The aim is to help them find a way that's right for them.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2018, 01:18:PM »
Are you suggesting that any conversation, they may have had with Julie, is an indication of them being in cahoots with her? Really?

It appears that you're unaware of the irony in you referring to me as being patronizing ;D ;D Which of the two of us claims superiority in all things? Patient care? Psychiatry? Psychology? Motherhood? Might it be I? Hell, NO!! I'm still learning. The day I believe there's nothing more for me to learn will be the day when the time has come to give up.

It's not the job of counselors to tell clients what to do. MANY seek counseling as a result of being told what to do. The aim is to help them find a way that's right for them.






YOU said they were in cahoots with her-----not me !

I think you misunderstand my use of the word patronising. It's about your attitude when you name-drop. A trait which to me is cringeworthy. Your persona is high up there on your pedestal------looking down. I can't see you being any other way.

Offline Jane

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 33781
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2018, 01:40:PM »





YOU said they were in cahoots with her-----not me !

I think you misunderstand my use of the word patronising. It's about your attitude when you name-drop. A trait which to me is cringeworthy. Your persona is high up there on your pedestal------looking down. I can't see you being any other way.

I certainly did, but it's a word which suggests  a collusion I don't believe existed between them because I doubt they knew each other well enough.

Let's look at what you believe to be "your attitude when you name-drop".  What is it that disturbs you? Something does. I'm no more responsible for my friends than are you, for yours but I'm surrounded by the Bamber's friends -all, now, getting close to the last stages of life- who, as such, have opinions. Apart from which, I have friends who are magistrates. I have friends who are doctors. I have a friend who's a psychiatrist. I have friends who are counselors. I also have a friend who, along with her family, is very close to Julie's family. I have friends who have no links, whatsoever to WHF, but they all have opinions. I also have ONE friend who believes that Jeremy is innocent..................I don't recall that I EVER gave you their names so remain clueless about what you mean by "name-dropping".

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 21102
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2018, 10:28:PM »
These, surely would have been a few of the questions asked by the relatives of a murdered family. Let's take a minute to look at what we'd have wanted to hear in the first minutes of hearing such terrible information. Would we have wanted to learn that mother and daughter had been shot to a bloody pulp and left, like discarded rag dolls on the floor, or might we have preferred to hear that they were laying side by side, on the bed. It makes them no less dead, but may conjure up a slightly more acceptable image, in the same way that it was appropriate to tell them that one of the little boys still had his thumb in his mouth, as opposed to telling them that the child's head was destroyed. The whole truth of the terrible injuries could wait until such time that the relatives could properly process it. It seems to me, that what was done as an act of kindness -to soften an horrendous blow- has been distorted beyond all recognition and turned into an act of deliberate deception.
Questions that any concerned individual would rightly pose, yet not once asked by Jeremy. Oh he had realized that in the aftermath he would be quizzed by relatives, in particular by Ann Eaton, but thought that she would be assuaged by gaining control of the caravan park, and of course never expecting the formal trial he was subjected to.

And how he played his part that first morning at Goldhanger, blubbering so loudly he could be heard from the streets, yet cynically laughing behind closed doors over the graves of the five individuals he killed, and whose corpses were necessary to end the torture he endured on a daily basis, a torture which in itself exhibited a madness no less severe than the one manifested by his sister when left unmedicated.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 10:32:PM by Steve_uk »

Offline Caroline

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 27076
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2018, 11:03:PM »

Maybe it is that I have a better understanding than you have in most matters. Your way is to skim over the nitty-gritty and present something which is far removed from the actual facts.
The relatives took EP at their every word,whereas those who like myself would have at least asked questions,particularly as it was about a family member ( JB ) I'd have wanted to have known every twist and turn before committing myself in agreeing with SJ and the EP in general.

Considering the relatives knew nothing at all about JB or his family as they never saw each other much between Christmas's,how could they have immediately laid blame on JB ? So without knowing about Sheila and her problems,the relatives had been more than happy to focus their attention on JB------for VERY obvious reasons .

Really? You have had a lot longer than EP to find out every twist and turn and yet just yesterday you asked this .....

I'm still baffled by June's position in relation to Sheila's.
The door from where June was found was open in the opposite direction to the door where Sheila was ?
Were these pics mirror images ?

How long would you have needed to 'get you man/woman'?  ::)

Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2018, 08:52:AM »
Really? You have had a lot longer than EP to find out every twist and turn and yet just yesterday you asked this .....

How long would you have needed to 'get you man/woman'?  ::)






Certainly not as long as it took. I'd have used a different approach too,with EVERYONE in the picture !

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: "What happened? How did they die? Where were they found?"
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2018, 09:21:AM »
EVERYONE would have been a suspect until I'd worked things out.