Author Topic: mugford rwb and the order of death.  (Read 42505 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kaldin

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6961
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #315 on: October 16, 2017, 09:49:PM »
Hopefully Steve will answer.

My understanding is there were 13 out of 17 markers. Which made it a 1 in a billion chance that it was not Sheila's blood. 

As the rifle hadn't been passed around 10 people, let alone a billion, it was Sheila's blood.

The appeal judges concluded that they couldn't tell one way or another if Sheila's DNA was in there.

Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #316 on: October 16, 2017, 09:53:PM »
Now there's a saying I haven't heard for a long time " dyed in the wool " a brilliant description.

I can tell you're a Lancastrian Steve.
I didn't know it was Lancastrian Lookout. ;D  I know Pot herb is.  ;D

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13785
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #317 on: October 16, 2017, 09:59:PM »
The appeal judges concluded that they couldn't tell one way or another if Sheila's DNA was in there.

Its more or less been proven the blood was planted. The only problem now is the paint from the mantle.


I have quoted three separate passages. Hope this makes sense

34. The evidence of Dr Fowler is set out in a more substantial report.  That report has been peer?reviewed by Dr Dragovich, who is Chief Medical Examiner in Oakland County, Michigan and Dr Marcella Fierro, who is the retired Chief Medical Examiner to the Commonwealth of Virginia.  Both have qualifications as forensic pathologists.  In his careful report, Dr Fowler makes clear that he has reviewed the evidence, which was available in relation to the wounds.  He concluded that the abrasions found were consistent with those of a rifle without a silencer, that there were no distinctive marks on the body which showed that a silencer had been attached, and the residue was consistent with contact wounds.  He refers to further work that needs doing, a matter to which I will return in a moment. 
35.   The Commission's judgment on this matter, which is set out carefully in its decision, is at paragraphs 360 to 362.  First of all, it is said that Dr Fowler did not deal with the fact that there was no residue found in the rifle, but there was the blood flake found in the silencer.  Although there is really no answer to the first half of that observation, as regards the second there is the point, on which I was prepared to make an assumption, namely that there may be a problem with the blood flake.  I have made that assumption because it seems to me that it is possible to do so by reference to the other reasons given by the Commission.  The first is the fact that the evidence of Dr Fowler does not grapple with the evidence of the fight in the kitchen and the paint evidence



38.   Taking, therefore, the three grounds relied on together, and for this purpose making an assumption again in favour of Mr Bamber on the first point, but doing so on the basis that the second and third points, namely the report of Dr Caruso and the report of Dr Fowler, have been dealt with by the Commission in a way that is not open to challenge,


11.   That question again has resolved into a narrow issue as to whether, when the fatal shot was fired in the kitchen at the father, Mr Bamber senior, the rifle used had on it a silencer, it being accepted that if there was a silencer on it at that time the prospects of the sister being the murderer were nil.



they could have denied an application for an appeal. The silencer itself consists of two pillars of evidence

A - The blood on the inside that matches Sheila
B - The Paint on the outside that matches the AGA surround.

Dismantling A is all well and good but then you still have B showing the silencer was still used on the night. The same applies vice versa. For argument sake, If it was proven that the marks on Sheila's neck/chin show silencer abrasions but Jeremy could prove the scratches were put there afterwards, it does not overcome the evidence against him.
 

Dr Caruso and Peter Suthurst's evidence is not 100% conclusive. But in my view they show a high probablility of the scratches being made after the 7th.

The logic applied by the CCRC makes sense, But it is raising the bar extremely high.

If it can be proven 100% that the scratches were made after the murders then they would probably have to grant an appeal.

the COA have already made a judgment back in 2002 on the relevant issue

The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself

Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.

This brings us back the 2012 Judgment

That question again has resolved into a narrow issue as to whether, when the fatal shot was fired in the kitchen at the father, Mr Bamber senior, the rifle used had on it a silencer, it being accepted that if there was a silencer on it at that time the prospects of the sister being the murderer were nil.


This is why the appeal was denied and the court sided with the CCRC

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44410
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #318 on: October 16, 2017, 10:00:PM »
Well by law it wasn't 100% certain to be Sheila's DNA, which I assume the Defence latched onto, but as you say it was as good as her blood.

Was this DNA test on the silencer blood. Or just inside the silencer generally ?
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44410
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #319 on: October 16, 2017, 10:07:PM »
David has said the blood was planted. He has also provided a source that the police had Sheila's blood.

Guilters believe the blood was due to Bamber using a silencer & Sheila's contact shot. With the 13 out of 17 markers & the rifle end having no blood on.

Either way, both guilters & supporters believe it was Sheila's blood in the silencer. Rather than 'not human blood' which Sherlock suggested.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 21102
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #320 on: October 16, 2017, 10:09:PM »
Now there's a saying I haven't heard for a long time " dyed in the wool " a brilliant description.

I can tell you're a Lancastrian Steve.
Yes Ophelia brought us an Indian summer today. Sorry about Ireland though.

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 21102
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #321 on: October 16, 2017, 10:15:PM »
Was this DNA test on the silencer blood. Or just inside the silencer generally ?
Well I thought they matched Sheila's blood with her birth mother's, Christine Sykora. I still don't see how the relatives could have replicated what happened when the gun fired with a silencer attached to them allegedly introducing A type blood through a pipette.

Offline Steve_uk

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 21102
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #322 on: October 16, 2017, 10:16:PM »
Its more or less been proven the blood was planted. The only problem now is the paint from the mantle.


I have quoted three separate passages. Hope this makes sense

34. The evidence of Dr Fowler is set out in a more substantial report.  That report has been peer?reviewed by Dr Dragovich, who is Chief Medical Examiner in Oakland County, Michigan and Dr Marcella Fierro, who is the retired Chief Medical Examiner to the Commonwealth of Virginia.  Both have qualifications as forensic pathologists.  In his careful report, Dr Fowler makes clear that he has reviewed the evidence, which was available in relation to the wounds.  He concluded that the abrasions found were consistent with those of a rifle without a silencer, that there were no distinctive marks on the body which showed that a silencer had been attached, and the residue was consistent with contact wounds.  He refers to further work that needs doing, a matter to which I will return in a moment. 
35.   The Commission's judgment on this matter, which is set out carefully in its decision, is at paragraphs 360 to 362.  First of all, it is said that Dr Fowler did not deal with the fact that there was no residue found in the rifle, but there was the blood flake found in the silencer.  Although there is really no answer to the first half of that observation, as regards the second there is the point, on which I was prepared to make an assumption, namely that there may be a problem with the blood flake.  I have made that assumption because it seems to me that it is possible to do so by reference to the other reasons given by the Commission.  The first is the fact that the evidence of Dr Fowler does not grapple with the evidence of the fight in the kitchen and the paint evidence



38.   Taking, therefore, the three grounds relied on together, and for this purpose making an assumption again in favour of Mr Bamber on the first point, but doing so on the basis that the second and third points, namely the report of Dr Caruso and the report of Dr Fowler, have been dealt with by the Commission in a way that is not open to challenge,


11.   That question again has resolved into a narrow issue as to whether, when the fatal shot was fired in the kitchen at the father, Mr Bamber senior, the rifle used had on it a silencer, it being accepted that if there was a silencer on it at that time the prospects of the sister being the murderer were nil.



they could have denied an application for an appeal. The silencer itself consists of two pillars of evidence

A - The blood on the inside that matches Sheila
B - The Paint on the outside that matches the AGA surround.

Dismantling A is all well and good but then you still have B showing the silencer was still used on the night. The same applies vice versa. For argument sake, If it was proven that the marks on Sheila's neck/chin show silencer abrasions but Jeremy could prove the scratches were put there afterwards, it does not overcome the evidence against him.
 

Dr Caruso and Peter Suthurst's evidence is not 100% conclusive. But in my view they show a high probablility of the scratches being made after the 7th.

The logic applied by the CCRC makes sense, But it is raising the bar extremely high.

If it can be proven 100% that the scratches were made after the murders then they would probably have to grant an appeal.

the COA have already made a judgment back in 2002 on the relevant issue

The sound moderator had on any view been attached to the rifle during the fight with Nevill Bamber in the kitchen. But if Sheila Caffell had committed suicide it must have been removed before she shot herself

Had the appellant's sister murdered the other members of her family with the moderator attached to the gun and then discovered she could not reach the trigger to kill herself, the moderator would have been found next to her body. There would have been no reason for her to have removed it and returned it to the gun cupboard before going back upstairs to commit suicide in her parents' room.

This brings us back the 2012 Judgment

That question again has resolved into a narrow issue as to whether, when the fatal shot was fired in the kitchen at the father, Mr Bamber senior, the rifle used had on it a silencer, it being accepted that if there was a silencer on it at that time the prospects of the sister being the murderer were nil.


This is why the appeal was denied and the court sided with the CCRC
Why would there be "distinctive marks" if a silencer were used but they were non-contact shots?

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44410
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #323 on: October 16, 2017, 10:16:PM »
With both guilters & supporters agreeing it was Sheila's blood in the silencer, a plant could only have been the police's idea.

They had Sheila's blood & would have asked the relatives to lie in their WS's & say they found it.

There is no reason why the relatives would know that the police had Sheila's blood.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 44410
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #324 on: October 16, 2017, 10:18:PM »
Well I thought they matched Sheila's blood with her birth mother's, Christine Sykora. I still don't see how the relatives could have replicated what happened when the gun fired with a silencer attached to them allegedly introducing A type blood through a pipette.

It's all very ludicros. But a few people fall for it.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #325 on: October 16, 2017, 10:37:PM »
I didn't know it was Lancastrian Lookout. ;D  I know Pot herb is.  ;D







I said that because of coming from over the water myself I used to hear it in conversation with aunts and uncles of yore when they spoke of " ancestors ". Yes,pot-herbs too. ;D

Offline lookout

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 48676
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #326 on: October 16, 2017, 10:40:PM »
Yes Ophelia brought us an Indian summer today. Sorry about Ireland though.







Yes,I feel sorry for Ireland. I felt sorry for us this morning too when it looked like Doomsday outside.

Offline nugnug

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 17252
    • http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjohnnyvoid.wordpress.com%2F&ei=WTdUUo3IM6mY0QWYz4GADg&usg=AFQjCNE-8xtZuPAZ52VkntYOokH5da5MIA&bvm=bv.5353710
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #327 on: October 16, 2017, 10:42:PM »
Well I thought they matched Sheila's blood with her birth mother's, Christine Sykora. I still don't see how the relatives could have replicated what happened when the gun fired with a silencer attached to them allegedly introducing A type blood through a pipette.

are talking later tests or the orignal becouse this case happend dna testing.

before dna testing they couldent tell exactly whose blood it was only the blood group.

Offline maggie

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13651
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #328 on: October 16, 2017, 11:00:PM »






Yes,I feel sorry for Ireland. I felt sorry for us this morning too when it looked like Doomsday outside.
We had a yellow sky as well Lookout. It seems it was sand from the Sahara which caused it. Very strange.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 11:01:PM by maggie »

Offline David1819

  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 13785
Re: mugford rwb and the order of death.
« Reply #329 on: October 16, 2017, 11:16:PM »
Well I thought they matched Sheila's blood with her birth mother's, Christine Sykora. I still don't see how the relatives could have replicated what happened when the gun fired with a silencer attached to them allegedly introducing A type blood through a pipette.

They didn't. The blood was in the form of flakes not a fine mist. There has never been a case in history that involves analysing blood inside a silencer. The investigators would not know what to expect would no know if it was real or false as there was no previous instance/examples to go on.