mugford rwb and the order of death.

[nugnug]

theres not just the qustion of jeremy being left out of the will everybody exept pam was left out.

and rwb just happens to helping her with changing it now if that doesnt suggest fraud im not sure what does.

the explaination for jeremy being writtan out only makes sense if he was the only one left out.

[Jane]

But still haunted deep down by the memories of those blissful early years, gone forever and now impossible to re-enact, before the banishment to Gresham's and the onset of mother's illness, dad's moroseness engendered by Diana's death and Sheila possessed by the Devil, from which Jeremy first shrank.

If only he could go back, return to those simpler times and pleasures, when he was not labelled a failure at school, was not pushed to produce more on the Farm, impress Nevill's cronies or understand the nature of mental illness. Restore the Farm as it was, with mum, dad and two burgeoning children, their milk teeth placed under the pillow replaced with a sixpence in the morning, a morning he now urged would repeat as he asked Pamela for those mementoes, averting his eyes as he stared simultaneously into the abyss of his own diablerie.

I think that may have come some time further down the line, Steve. There's only so much satisfaction to be had from what money can buy when there's nothing it CAN'T buy. It maybe then -if he actually had a soul- that he'd start to yearn for those things no amount of money CAN buy.

[Jane]

theres not just the qustion of jeremy being left out of the will everybody exept pam was left out.

and rwb just happens to helping her with changing it now if that doesnt suggest fraud im not sure what does.

the explaination for jeremy being writtan out only makes sense if he was the only one left out.

What would have given Jeremy precedence over Granny Speakman's other grandchildren, Ann and David, both older than Jeremy and Sheila, therefore first in line to inherit, perhaps?

[Roch]

Robert knew that unless Jeremy was convicted that Jeremy would inherit the lions share ...

That is why he planted the silencer and got Julie to lie ...

To be fair to the man he probably had convinced himself Jeremy was guilty ...

After all to Robert Jeremy was a "queer" criminal drug dealing illegitimate "bastard" ...

I believe Robert's family were facing impending poverty at that time ...

Robert believed what he wanted to believe ...

He lied to grandma Speakman ...

He convinced David, Julie, possibly Anne and certain Police Officers that Jeremy did it ...

The rest is history ...

People can point to Jeremy and Julie and the caravan break in or their drug dealing or Julies cheque frauds - but by far the biggest proven fraudster in all this by a very long way indeed  is Robert Boutflour lying to grandma Speakman telling her that her beloved grandson was dead ...

What sort of man was Robert Boutflour ?

Cutting... but spot-on.

Though I doubt Ann needed any convincing.  She had already earmarked Jeremy as a threat prior to the killings.  I see her as 'dad's cohort'.  The relatives in general as arrogant, ignorant, savy, connected and conniving.  Their self-interest fed their suspicions and their suspicions inevitably furthered their self interest.  Not sure about the poverty bit.


Bamber didn't see them coming. 

[Kaldin]

What would have given Jeremy precedence over Granny Speakman's other grandchildren, Ann and David, both older than Jeremy and Sheila, therefore first in line to inherit, perhaps?

Their mother was still alive though.

[Steve_uk]

I think that may have come some time further down the line, Steve. There's only so much satisfaction to be had from what money can buy when there's nothing it CAN'T buy. It maybe then -if he actually had a soul- that he'd start to yearn for those things no amount of money CAN buy.

I'm not sure how much further down the line as he was musing soon post-murders about a sojourn in an East Asian Buddhist monastery. Sometimes when you do have everything disappointment and fatigue can set in in his case after the early euphoria of the murders. Did he suggest a co-operative venture with Julie in a fashionable West End wine bar as her spoils or was he as I'm suggesting completely unsure of the way forward after yet more foreign jaunts, his brain messed up with cannabis and as Julie remarked, moody without it.

[nugnug]

What would have given Jeremy precedence over Granny Speakman's other grandchildren, Ann and David, both older than Jeremy and Sheila, therefore first in line to inherit, perhaps?

the point im making is jeremy was not the only person left out the will.

jeremy being the killer was a good excuse for him to be excluded but why were the others excluded.

[Steve_uk]

To link this with the word "death" in this thread I don't know the psychiatrists' terms for the coping mechanisms of Jeremy, Sheila or June. Some people do seem to turn inwards on themselves, with tragic results, whilst others vent their anger on others with similar tragic outcomes. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/st-pauls-cathedral-death-student-who-fell-100ft-pictured-as-family-say-she-found-world-a-bad-place-to-live/ar-AAtytX6?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp

[Jane]

I'm not sure how much further down the line as he was musing soon post-murders about a sojourn in an East Asian Buddhist monastery. Sometimes when you do have everything disappointment and fatigue can set in in his case after the early euphoria of the murders. Did he suggest a co-operative venture with Julie in a fashionable West End wine bar as her spoils or was he as I'm suggesting completely unsure of the way forward after yet more foreign jaunts, his brain messed up with cannabis and as Julie remarked, moody without it.

It was probably a bit too early in the proceedings for him to have been jaded, but I think there could have been a moment of anti climax despite all the trappings.

[Adam]

I don't think they could tell if it was from blood or not.

Hopefully Steve will answer.

My understanding is there were 13 out of 17 markers. Which made it a 1 in a billion chance that it was not Sheila's blood. 

As the rifle hadn't been passed around 10 people, let alone a billion, it was Sheila's blood.

[Jane]

Their mother was still alive though.

Yes she was. Maybe Granny didn't want ANY of her grandchildren to inherit on her death. If Jeremy had June's share, she may have felt it was unfair on Ann and David.

[Steve_uk]

the point im making is jeremy was not the only person left out the will.

jeremy being the killer was a good excuse for him to be excluded but why were the others excluded.

Well I think Mabel Speakman was one of those old-fashioned dyed in the wool types who probably traced her family tree back generations and therefore had an historic if not emotional attachment to blood ties. It's why she left her estate divided between blood daughters and not the cuckoos in the nest Betty Howie and Alice Binks, whom she probably felt their husbands and not herself should provide for.

[Jane]

the point im making is jeremy was not the only person left out the will.

jeremy being the killer was a good excuse for him to be excluded but why were the others excluded.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Surely we leave wherever WE choose, NOT where others think we should?

[Steve_uk]

Hopefully Steve will answer.

My understanding is there were 13 out of 17 markers. Which made it a 1 in a billion chance that it was not Sheila's blood. 

As the rifle hadn't been passed around 10 people, let alone a billion, it was Sheila's blood.

Well by law it wasn't 100% certain to be Sheila's DNA, which I assume the Defence latched onto, but as you say it was as good as her blood.

[lookout]

Now there's a saying I haven't heard for a long time " dyed in the wool " a brilliant description.

I can tell you're a Lancastrian Steve.