mugford rwb and the order of death.

[lookout]

I wonder how he knew it to have been written recently?

Which makes me think even more.

[Steve_uk]

Your last paragraph paints an excellent word picture of how I think he felt. I think he probably did feel he had no higher status on the farm than a skivvy -although he tried to present himself as a gentleman farmer- and I think he probably saw an unending future of the same old, stretching out before him as he grew into maturity and middle age before he received his inheritance. It doesn't have to be how things were. It's about how he saw them as being.

Jane do you think Nevill realized the effect this was having on Jeremy, tying him to the Farm for the duration of his own life? He was rumoured to have foretold his own death to Barbara Wilson, so why not attempt to alleviate the pressure somewhat by sitting down with his son to map out a compromise acceptable to all parties?

[lookout]

As Jane had said 5 years ago,the letter " raises more questions than answers ".I'll say it does.
Why does a healthy woman say " if I have to leave you ?"

[lookout]

At least 5 years differentiates between the sublime to the utterly ridiculous.

[Jane]

Jane do you think Nevill realized the effect this was having on Jeremy, tying him to the Farm for the duration of his own life? He was rumoured to have foretold his own death to Barbara Wilson, so why not attempt to alleviate the pressure somewhat by sitting down with his son to map out a compromise acceptable to all parties?

I'm speculating again, Steve, but I'm certain of one thing. Nevill had to have known that Jeremy's heart wasn't in farming the way he'd hoped it would be. My neighbour told me many times about the tensions which he witnessed between father and son which Nevill brushed aside. It was only after a particularly heated exchange when Nevill finally broke down and cried that he realized how serious it had become. I think Nevill had always been too close to see it for how it was. He must have imagined Jeremy would settle down eventually. He probably hoped by letting him have time off to spread his wings he'd return to his duties. I don't imagine it ever occurred to him that he was forcing a round peg into a square hole. Possibly, by the time he finally broke down, he may have become resigned. I have a sense of him having given up.

[Jane]

As Jane had said 5 years ago,the letter " raises more questions than answers ".I'll say it does.
Why does a healthy woman say " if I have to leave you ?"

It depends what you mean by healthy, Lookout. I've offered several possibilities. There's a vast space between hypochondria/anxiety at one end of the scale and full blown depression at the other. However, before you choose the latter, please remember all the things she was involved with regularly in her very busy life. I've known full blown depressives who can't get themselves out of bed even for therapy sessions. June appeared to be leading an active and fulfilling life.

[Steve_uk]

It depends what you mean by healthy, Lookout. I've offered several possibilities. There's a vast space between hypochondria/anxiety at one end of the scale and full blown depression at the other. However, before you choose the latter, please remember all the things she was involved with regularly in her very busy life. I've known full blown depressives who can't get themselves out of bed even for therapy sessions. June appeared to be leading an active and fulfilling life.

That's true but I think the operative word is "appeared". There's conflicting information on her daughter's visit in the CAL book: to Regine Pargeter she told she was looking forward to it but privately to Agnes Low she knew it would not be straightforward dealing with Sheila and her illness.

[Jane]

That's true but I think the operative word is "appeared". There's conflicting information on her daughter's visit in the CAL book: to Regine Pargeter she told she was looking forward to it but privately to Agnes Low she knew it would not be straightforward dealing with Sheila and her illness.

Oh, I really don't see that upcoming visit as being anything BUT difficult. Thrown into the mix has to be Sheila's meeting with Christine. Still, we have no indication that June was doing less than usual, indeed with the imminent visit of Sheila and the boys, she was doing more. I concur that things are rarely what they "appear" to be but June hadn't become so paralyzed and incapacitated by depression that she couldn't function.

[sherlock]

If JB was the killer then the least threat would have been the twins. The killer would have targeted Neville first, and then June. It was important to the relatives that the twins were first because of the inheritance.

100% right ...

Who on earth would Jeremy (or Malcolm) shoot the twins before Neville ?

Neville was the obvious threat ...

It is obvious that Jeremy (or Malcolm) would have shot Nevill First ....

On the assumption that Nevill was in bed when first shot then June would have been second ...

I assume (I may be wrong) that had the twins died last then Colin would have inherited a large slice ....

Jeremy and Robert Boutflour had motive for wanting people to think the twins died first ....

Julie stating Jeremy told her that the twins died first could not however benefit Jeremy ...

Why would Jeremy have gone into so much detail with Julie ?

Julie stating Jeremy told her that the twins died first could however benefit Robert Boutflour ...

I believe the relatives planted the silencer and persuaded Julie to confess ...

The above point is one of many details that fits this having been the case ...

The only real evidence against Jeremy was the silencer and Julie's confession ...

Also consider this - why the hell is that detail not in Sheils's statements of 12/13 th September ?

Did she really forget that detail for 11 days - I doubt it very much ...

And she allegedly forgets what order Jeremy said the others were killed in ?

Unbelievable that she would "forget" - she remembers she was told the order - but "can't remember" ?

It was very convenient for Robert Boutflour that Julie remembered this detail 11 days later ....

When it came to arguing about the inheritance that "detail" stopped Colin getting a large share ...

[lookout]

I think money and order of deaths was the least of anyone's worry that night.

[nugnug]

I think money and order of deaths was the least of anyone's worry that night.

it was certanly a worry for rwb and he was the main player in all this.

and without the right order of death pam had no cliam for her to have a cliam sheila or june had to die last and of course jeremy had to have killed them.

[lookout]

it was certanly a worry for rwb and he was the main player in all this.

Oh yes,those outside who hadn't got a clue,knowing nothing about the family but pretending they did.

[nugnug]

and if no death order had been established pam wouldent have a cliam so reather convienant that 1 was.

[sherlock]

and if no death order had been established pam wouldent have a cliam so reather convienant that 1 was.

By the 23rd September it was clear that there was no evidence as to what order they died in ...

Then 11 days after her original confession - Julie conveniently remembers ...

Conveniently for the relatives that is ....

On the 7th/8th/9th and 10th September she simply "forgot" all mention of the order they had died in ...

I do not believe it ...

Because it is unbelievable ...

Look at this :

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,374.msg5109.html#msg5109

Julie had spent the 7th - the 8th - the 9th and the 10th of September 1985 with DC Stan Jones ...

And you believe she did not mention Jeremy saying what order they all died in ?

About 2 weeks later she suddenly "remembers" ...

Can people not see how unlikely this is ?

4 days with Police and she completely forgot to mention it - for 4 days ?

There is a simple explanation ...

Julie was lying ...

By the 23rd September Robert Boutflour knew how important the order of death would be ...

He simply asked Julie to "remember" this all important detail ...

Which version sounds more likely ?

Honestly ? In your heart of hearts you should probably actually know the answer to this ...

[nugnug]

I think that just might of been the time that rwb relised that even if Jeremy is convicted without a order of death the money was rightfully colins.