Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm

[maggie]

The problem I have with the area of the darker spots is because there's less blood supply in the forearms to form those dark areas. I'd have said that they were more like droplets of venous blood from a wound-----such as from her neck. Venous blood being pretty dark in colour as pictured,as in jugular.

Hi Lookout, however the dark marks on Nevill's arms were made they are undoubtedly wounds, there are no blood trails possibly because Nevill's blood was stickier which is possible because often older people have stickier and a higher clotting rate of blood which is why they are prescribed anticoagulant such as warfarin.
The photos of Sheila and her wounds are very dark and very grainy but Roch states he has seen much clearer photos of Sheila's arms showing similar marks to Nevill's.  Roch also states June has similar wounds/ marks on her body.  You have said in the past that June has marks on her arms like Nevill and it seems you may be right but surely in that case the marks on Sheila's arms just may be the same?

[maggie]

Which is all the more confusing because no time of death was ever recorded.

But Lookout, June cannot have died after Sheila unless she shot herself or someone else killed her. 
As you don't believe JB killed her and she most certainly did not shoot herself she cannot have died after Sheila.

[Kaldin]

June could not have died after Sheila. She had apparently walked around the room after the first shots, but she had a shot to her head which would have killed her instantly where she was found - near the bedroom door.

[David1819]

June could not have died after Sheila. She had apparently walked around the room after the first shots, but she had a shot to her head which would have killed her instantly where she was found - near the bedroom door.

I think June passed out/collpased after walking round for half a dozen or seconds after being shot. The subsequent shots were probably overkill.

[lookout]

Hi Lookout, If they are drips of blood from the neck the trails could not have run upwards, it is difficult to imagine how Sheila held her arms to achieve those blood trails from drips imo.
The spots are darker because the blood has congealed within the wounds however because her blood was healthy the gouges would be more likely to leak especially as she smoked. Cannabis and was prescribed Haloperidol both of which have a slight anticoagulant effect.

Must be the way I'm looking at the pic because I see it as  the blood running downwards on her arm. Also because of the blood colour being " deoxygenated " ( dark ) I naturally thought it was from a vein ( neck )
Smoking has a tendency to make the blood sticky ( form clots ) as opposed to " thinning ", if she was smoking ordinary tobacco,but I suppose because of the Haldol and cannabis it could possibly have counteracted that,I'm not sure.

However,I'll have to study the pic again as I'm a bit hopeless looking at pics,preferring to see things in reality to get a better judgement,but that's not always possible or realistic in this case.
Sometimes you have to go over most things repeatedly ( I do anyway  ) to refresh the mind. Must go to Spec-Savers too,2003 was the last time  ( just for reading )

[Roch]

Take a closer look. Runs of blood with build up at the end.  Furthermore when you look at the size of these compared to Sheila's hand these runs are tiny. They collectively span no more that 4 cm in my estimate.

If they were caused by combat it was with an altercation with no human or any earthy animal I can think of. 

I'm not sure how you're working out the span between the four marks - but in reality, the red 'blobs' actually appear to be very raw.  The trails themselves are not great in length.  They appear to taper towards a position on the underside of her wrist.  In fact, one of the middle runs appears to flow in to the other.  Unless something obstructed Sheila's arm at three or four points along the wrist - I do not see how or why the blood would just suddenly coagulate, after such short runs from where the neck wound has dripped.  Also, if the runs stem from the where neck wound dripped blood on to the underside of her wrist - why did this blood disperse in to four separate streams? 

[Kaldin]

I think June passed out/collpased after walking round for half a dozen or seconds after being shot. The subsequent shots were probably overkill.

Passed out near the door? She could have done, but if she had walked around the room before that and dripped blood onto Sheila's arm, who then shot her in the head?

[David1819]

Passed out near the door? She could have done, but if she had walked around the room before that and dripped blood onto Sheila's arm, who then shot her in the head?

That would mean June was lying in bed doing nothing while somebody was murdering/engineering Sheilas faux suicide right next to the bed June lay in. Absurd scenario.

[lookout]

June was originally slumped against the door because a patch of her blood is seen brushed up against it,so how she ended up completely flat on her back away from the door,I don't know. From a sitting position leant up against the door,she'd have eventually slid sideways and ended up in a curled-up position if she'd been dead at the time.

[Kaldin]

That would mean June was lying in bed doing nothing while somebody was murdering/engineering Sheilas faux suicide right next to the bed June lay in. Absurd scenario.

Yes it would, and yes, it is absurd.

[Kaldin]

June was originally slumped against the door because a patch of her blood is seen brushed up against it,so how she ended up completely flat on her back away from the door,I don't know. From a sitting position leant up against the door,she'd have eventually slid sideways and ended up in a curled-up position if she'd been dead at the time.

I can't find any pics of June in that position.

[lookout]

Passed out near the door? She could have done, but if she had walked around the room before that and dripped blood onto Sheila's arm, who then shot her in the head?

Sheila,as that would account for the blood running up her arm instead of down,lifting up the rifle after her first shot.

[Kaldin]

Sheila,as that would account for the blood running up her arm instead of down,lifting up the rifle after her first shot.

You think that Sheila shot herself once, and then June came over to her, dripped blood on Sheila's arm, and then Sheila lifted the rifle, shot June, and then shot herself again? June would have fallen on top of Sheila in that case.

[lookout]

You think that Sheila shot herself once, and then June came over to her, dripped blood on Sheila's arm, and then Sheila lifted the rifle, shot June, and then shot herself again? June would have fallen on top of Sheila in that case.

I've always thought that the first shot had been done by someone struggling to retrieve the gun from Sheila,that it hadn't been done by Sheila herself. It hadn't been a contact shot and it had also hit the jaw-bone. Not somewhere ( the jawbone ) you'd aim for if you were taking your own life. The second,suicide shot was a contact one.

It's not impossible for Sheila to have been lying down as she took a final shot to her mother who,if she'd been struggling to stand,would have been hurled back at the door rather than her falling on top of Sheila,thus slumping as she went down.
We don't know the extent of June's injuries between 4am and 6am to judge if she'd been able to fight off Sheila,or the actual time of the shot that finally killed her. It's obvious that both women struggled,with similar fingernail indentations on June, Neville too,  as well as fingermarks around June's throat.

I reckon it had been June at the window possibly trying to summon help,hence the drips on the carpet there,though I wouldn't know where Sheila would have been at that time,or who switched lights on and off and opened and closed curtains. 

Without any times of death it's difficult to say who'd been alive at whatever time

[Kaldin]

I've always thought that the first shot had been done by someone struggling to retrieve the gun from Sheila,that it hadn't been done by Sheila herself. It hadn't been a contact shot and it had also hit the jaw-bone. Not somewhere ( the jawbone ) you'd aim for if you were taking your own life. The second,suicide shot was a contact one.

It's not impossible for Sheila to have been lying down as she took a final shot to her mother who,if she'd been struggling to stand,would have been hurled back at the door rather than her falling on top of Sheila,thus slumping as she went down.
We don't know the extent of June's injuries between 4am and 6am to judge if she'd been able to fight off Sheila,or the actual time of the shot that finally killed her. It's obvious that both women struggled,with similar fingernail indentations on June, Neville too,  as well as fingermarks around June's throat.

I reckon it had been June at the window possibly trying to summon help,hence the drips on the carpet there,though I wouldn't know where Sheila would have been at that time,or who switched lights on and off and opened and closed curtains. 

Without any times of death it's difficult to say who'd been alive at whatever time

If June had been standing near Sheila, and Sheila had taken a final shot at her, June would have ended up nearer the window. She couldn't have been hurled backwards and ended up near the door because the bed was in the way.