Sheila's neck wound and the blood on her arm

[Adam]

Why would Sheila shooting the twins first and waking Neville be ruled out because of time constraints?

If Neville was shot four times upstairs, what was June Bamber doing? Did she stay in bed? There are a lot of blood stains on the bed. Wouldn't the twins and Sheila have woken up?

Do you think that either Jeremy or Sheila confronted Neville first in the kitchen? How then did he get shot upstairs? Also, I would have thought that someone upstairs would have heard the commotion. After all, it's been said there was quite a fight in there as well as the gun being fired.

So sheila shoots the twins & Nevill decides to ring Bamber. A bit late to be ringing anyone. Apart from an ambulance after Nevill gets the rifle off Sheila.

The evidence is Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom. June was shot five times in bed. Bamber shot them both after entering the bedroom. Why would Sheila & the twins wake from behind closed doors ? Bamber used a silencer & June was shot while asleep.

Nevill got shot upstairs & then ran downstairs. Being bare footed & in pyjamas shows he was in bed when Bamber entered the bedroom. This would be around 2am.

[David1819]

Are you referring to lower arm (i.e. wrist)?  It's difficult to discern correctly from images on the forum - but the trails actually fade away from the darker spots.  The trails are 'dappled' in appearance and become more faint away from the spots.  There are also occurrences of broken skin in the vicinity of the darker spots.   Personally I would have to disagree that the wrist spots are formed by a coagulation of runs deposited on her arm from the neck wound. 

There are also other occurrences of broken skin further up the arm, including cuts upon her upper arm that are completely distinct from any nearby trail or smear.  In addition various cuts, upon her hand and grazing / nicks on another part of the same hand.   
 

Roch I don't know why you suddenly decided that those runs of blood are from cuts when its rather obvious by looking the photos one can deduce otherwise.

If you look at the photo of Nevills arm. That is what Sheila's wounds should look like (if they are). But they don't.

Its believed these wounds to Nevills arm is caused by the barrel of the gun. And if so that is certainly not with the smooth ended silencer. However I find it very coincidental for there to be five cuts in the alignment and size of a female hand.



“METROPOLITAN POLICE. R v Bamber Court Bundle (7B) Photograph Album (III) Original Case Photographs”

Amongst the album marked “Original Case Photographs” was a post mortem photograph of Ralph Neville Bamber’s right arm, missing from the album made available to the Jury, Trial Judge and Appellate Courts as well as the Defence.

The photo of Ralph Neville Bamber’s arm does indeed sustain the observation and witness statement of Professor Vanezis in that “there was a collection of bruises, 3 of which had an approximate linear configuration…” and the observation uplifted from the post mortem report in the Court of Appeal’s Approved Judgement in para 42: “linear type bruising to the right forearm,”
but what was not made available to the Court of Appeal was the very post mortem photograph itself since what was available was only the blue photographic albums marked “Jury Bundle” and NOT the album marked “original case photographs.”

Even to a medically untrained eye the photograph of the right arm of Ralph Neville Bamber shows finger nail marks consistent with the assailant/attacker having gripped the deceased and having lacerated the skin with finger nail marks.

What is of some considerable concern and forms part of the basis of the request to the Commission to refer this matter back to the Court of Appeal is that Professor Vanezis made NO mention of these vitally important marks in his post mortem report.

The finger nail lacerations are consistent with a person with finger nails between 5mm-6mm long since the lacerated indentations into the skin are measured."
CRIMINAL CASES REVIEW COMMISSION ON BEHALF OF THE APPLICANT
CASE NO: 00162/2004




Knight's Forensic Pathology Third Edition page 141
Fingernail abrasions
These are important because of their frequency in assaults -especially child abuse, sexual attacks and strangulation. Often associated with focal bruises, fingernail abrasions are most often seen on the neck, the face, the upper arms and the forearms. They may be linear scratches if the fingers are
dragged down the skin, or short, straight or curved marks when the skin is gripped in a static fashion. As women tend to have longer, sharper fingernails than men, they are naturally
more often associated with causing such abrasions. A victim resisting a sexual or other attack may rake her nails down her assailant's face, causing linear, parallel scratches that may be several millimetres wide and placed a centimetre or two apart. The expected pattern may be fragmentary,
however, as is often seen on the neck when a victim of either manual or ligature strangulation attempts to tear away the attacking fingers or cord. These marks are usually vertical, as opposed to the more random marks that may be inflicted by the nails of the assailant in manual strangulation.
The upper arms are a frequent site for gripping and restraint, both in adult assaults and child abuse. Bruising is most common, but fingernail marks may be superimposed. Static fingernail abrasions may be straight or curved, often about half to one centimetre long. The direction of curvature must be interpreted with care if one wishes to decide which way the hand was held at the time of infliction.

Although it is natural to assume that the concavity of the mark indicates the orientation of the fingertip, experiments by Shapiro et al. (1962) have shown that this is often not the case. Because the skin is put under lateral tension when it is indented by the nails, it may distort, so that when the
tension is released the elasticity of the skin causes it to return to its original position, carrying the nail mark with it. The curve may then reverse to form either a straight line or a convexity. The shape of the free edge of the fingernail also affects the mark, as pointed nails are more likely than
those with straight edges to give these paradoxical results. Once again, the pathologist has to be wary of incorrect interpretation when, for instance, deciding if nail marks on a neck were made by hands approaching from the front or passing around the back of the neck. However, ~ersonal
experiments with the Shapiro et al. contention have shown that it by no means always applies.

[Kaldin]

So sheila shoots the twins & Nevill decides to ring Bamber. A bit late to be ringing anyone. Apart from an ambulance after Nevill gets the rifle off Sheila.

The evidence is Nevill was shot 4 times in the bedroom. June was shot five times in bed. Bamber shot them both after entering the bedroom. Why would Sheila & the twins wake from behind closed doors ? Bamber used a silencer & June was shot while asleep.

Nevill got shot upstairs & then ran downstairs. Being bare footed & in pyjamas shows he was in bed when Bamber entered the bedroom. This would be around 2am.

Sheila could still have shot the twins first. Of course it would have been too late to save the twins, but it wouldn't have been too late to save himself and June.  Is it not possible that Nevill did go downstairs, rang Jeremy, and then went back upstairs where he was shot? The shots in the bedroom did not kill him, so perhaps he went back downstairs to get away from Sheila.

[Kaldin]

What puzzles me is why Nevill ended up in the kitchen. If he was shot upstairs by Jeremy, how did he manage to escape to the kitchen in the first place? Surely Jeremy would have just shot him again - upstairs.

If June was shot in bed, was she shot before Nevill escaped to the kitchen? She must have been, she wouldn't have just stayed in bed whilst her husband was being pursued.

[Adam]

Sheila could still have shot the twins first. Of course it would have been too late to save the twins, but it wouldn't have been too late to save himself and June.  Is it not possible that Nevill did go downstairs, rang Jeremy, and then went back upstairs where he was shot? The shots in the bedroom did not kill him, so perhaps he went back downstairs to get away from Sheila.

That is what has been suggested.

A fully fit Nevill decided not to confront a drowsy & weak Sheila who was holding a low powered weapon.

Eventually Nevill spent several minutes phoning & waiting for Bamber to answer. At the very moment Bamber answers, Nevill somehow hears upstairs rifle shots & only says 8/11 words to Bamber before putting the phone down & taking it back off the hook.

Nevill then ran upatairs, totally unprotected bare footed in pyjamas. Gets within inches of Sheila who shoots him twice in the face & twice in the body. There is no physical confrontation upstairs. Instead Nevill runs straight back downstairs. Followed by Sheila.

[Kaldin]

That is what has been suggested.

A fully fit Nevill decided not to confront a drowsy & weak Sheila who was holding a low powered weapon.

Eventually Nevill spent several minutes phoning & waiting for Bamber to answer. At the very moment Bamber answers, Nevill somehow hears upstairs rifle shots & only says 8/11 words to Bamber before putting the phone down & taking it back off the hook.

Nevill then ran upatairs, totally unprotected bare footed in pyjamas. Gets within inches of Sheila who shoots him twice in the face & twice in the body. There is no physical confrontation upstairs. Instead Nevill runs straight back downstairs. Followed by Sheila.

That is certainly possible, and it would explain why there was no blood on the phone, and the abrupt way Nevill went silent - according to Jeremy anyway. If Sheila had already gone berserk with the gun, surely he would have called 999. Sheila might not have shot the twins, she might have been threatening to. I don't know though - wouldn't Nevill have tried to persuade her to hand over the gun?

[Adam]

What puzzles me is why Nevill ended up in the kitchen. If he was shot upstairs by Jeremy, how did he manage to escape to the kitchen in the first place? Surely Jeremy would have just shot him again - upstairs.

If June was shot in bed, was she shot before Nevill escaped to the kitchen? She must have been, she wouldn't have just stayed in bed whilst her husband was being pursued.

Nevill shot both June & Nevill with the same rifle load. There is nothing June could do after 5 bed shots.

Nevill was shot 4 times before getting past Bamber to the kitchen.

[Adam]

That is certainly possible, and it would explain why there was no blood on the phone, and the abrupt way Nevill went silent - according to Jeremy anyway. If Sheila had already gone berserk with the gun, surely he would have called 999. Sheila might not have shot the twins, she might have been threatening to. I don't know though - wouldn't Nevill have tried to persuade her to hand over the gun?

Of course the above very unlikely scenario means Nevill did not call Chelmsford police 16/26 minutes after calling Bamber. But I'm sure you believe that is just properganda anyway.

[Kaldin]

Nevill shot both June & Nevill with the same rifle load. There is nothing June could do after 5 bed shots.

Nevill was shot 4 times before getting past Bamber to the kitchen.

She got out of bed though - her blood was found in other parts of the bedroom, and she was found by the door. It's not clear to me if she was shot near the door or just collapsed and died there. So in your scenario, Nevill and June were shot at pretty much the same time. Was Nevill in bed at the time or was he standing up?

[Kaldin]

Of course the above very unlikely scenario means Nevill did not call Chelmsford police 16/26 minutes after calling Bamber. But I'm sure you believe that is just properganda anyway.

I've never been convinced that Nevill called Chelmsford police. I think that PC West would have remembered two separate phone calls that night, and he had no reason to lie at that time. There are discrepancies with the time logged on the police reports, but I think that was a mistake.

[Adam]

I've never been convinced that Nevill called Chelmsford police. I think that PC West would have remembered two separate phone calls that night, and he had no reason to lie at that time. There are discrepancies with the time logged on the police reports, but I think that was a mistake.

There are only two or here who believe Nevill called the police.

Although the OS/CT & Bamber are still promoting it.

[Kaldin]

Back to Sheila's wounds, and the position of her body. I gather that it was the upper wound which killed her, which I find strange as there appears to be smudges of blood around it, as if she had clutched at her throat.

I did notice that the door behind her into the box room was open in the photos, so it's possible that she went into her parents' bedroom that way. That would suggest that she'd been in the twins' room prior to that as I think there was a door to the box room leading from their room. That doesn't really explain much, but I've always wondered why she was shot in that particular place, whether Jeremy shot her or she shot herself. It's odd though - wouldn't Jeremy have preferred to shoot her in a place which wasn't visible from the front of the house - in her own room, for example?

[David1819]

Back to Sheila's wounds, and the position of her body. I gather that it was the upper wound which killed her, which I find strange as there appears to be smudges of blood around it, as if she had clutched at her throat.

I did notice that the door behind her into the box room was open in the photos, so it's possible that she went into her parents' bedroom that way. That would suggest that she'd been in the twins' room prior to that as I think there was a door to the box room leading from their room. That doesn't really explain much, but I've always wondered why she was shot in that particular place, whether Jeremy shot her or she shot herself. It's odd though - wouldn't Jeremy have preferred to shoot her in a place which wasn't visible from the front of the house - in her own room, for example?

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7805.msg369805.html#msg369805

[guest2181]

Back to Sheila's wounds, and the position of her body. I gather that it was the upper wound which killed her, which I find strange as there appears to be smudges of blood around it, as if she had clutched at her throat.

I did notice that the door behind her into the box room was open in the photos, so it's possible that she went into her parents' bedroom that way. That would suggest that she'd been in the twins' room prior to that as I think there was a door to the box room leading from their room. That doesn't really explain much, but I've always wondered why she was shot in that particular place, whether Jeremy shot her or she shot herself. It's odd though - wouldn't Jeremy have preferred to shoot her in a place which wasn't visible from the front of the house - in her own room, for example?

Welcome back Kaldin.

You are correct that it was the upper wound which was said to be instantly fatal.

You might have already noticed (ignore this if you have), but many of the documents and photographs etc are now in their own archive section. I don't think that was the case when you used to post. It's much easier to find things now.
http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/board,3.0.html

[Kaldin]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7805.msg369805.html#msg369805

I see - good thread. So either the end of the rifle smeared the blood, or Sheila's head was forward at the time which caused a smudge.