Author Topic: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.  (Read 103383 times)

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Offline Roch

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #975 on: October 09, 2020, 03:19:PM »
No, Luminous Wanderer was banned after he fell out with NGB. Your posts have never persuaded or influenced anyone.

I remember that Tom G who Adam mentioned. I struggled to get him to respond but he seemed happy to engage with Adam.

Offline Adam

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #976 on: October 09, 2020, 03:33:PM »
No, Luminous Wanderer was banned after he fell out with NGB. Your posts have never persuaded or influenced anyone.

Stick to putting pictures up of yourself. Makes me feel handsome.

Better still, create another 'forensic evidence breakthrough'. Then refuse to say what it is.

Luminous Wanderer asked to have his account deleted. He was certainly upset when I showed him a source that Nevill was shot upstairs.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #977 on: October 09, 2020, 03:39:PM »
2018:

'This is clown world stuff.  I genuinely do not believe you have any interest in a serious discussion of the forum.

Please ban me.  I have asked you to delete my account before.  I sent the request three times through the admin function.'
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #978 on: October 09, 2020, 03:45:PM »
No, Luminous Wanderer was banned after he fell out with NGB. Your posts have never persuaded or influenced anyone.

I do not think he was banned.  As I recall he demanded that his account be deleted.


Offline JackieD

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #979 on: October 09, 2020, 04:21:PM »
 
I remember that Tom G who Adam mentioned. I struggled to get him to respond but he seemed happy to engage with Adam.

 ;D ;D ;D
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

Offline JackieD

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #980 on: October 09, 2020, 04:22:PM »
Stick to putting pictures up of yourself. Makes me feel handsome.

Better still, create another 'forensic evidence breakthrough'. Then refuse to say what it is.

Luminous Wanderer asked to have his account deleted. He was certainly upset when I showed him a source that Nevill was shot upstairs.

To be fair Adam he is good looking
Julie Mugford the main prosecution witness was guilty of numerous crimes, 13 separate cheque frauds, robbery, and drug dealing and also making a deal with a national newspaper before trial that if she could convince a jury her ex boyfriend was guilty of five murders she would receive £25,000

guest29835

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #981 on: October 09, 2020, 06:09:PM »
Stick to putting pictures up of yourself. Makes me feel handsome.

Thanks Adam, but you're not as handsome as Jeremy when he's wearing those industrial style frames.  He looks very modish and fashionable.

Offline David1819

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #982 on: October 09, 2020, 07:04:PM »
I do not think he was banned.  As I recall he demanded that his account be deleted.

If I remember correctly he made some absurd PMs to you threatening to take the forum down. Or did I imagine this?

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #983 on: October 09, 2020, 08:02:PM »
If I remember correctly he made some absurd PMs to you threatening to take the forum down. Or did I imagine this?

He did post some really absurd and threatening nonsense.  He was very argumentative and seemed a bit unhinged.


Offline David1819

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #984 on: October 09, 2020, 09:44:PM »
He did post some really absurd and threatening nonsense.  He was very argumentative and seemed a bit unhinged.

He went and started his own Bamber forum. He has since took it down because nobody joined.  :(

Offline David1819

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #985 on: October 09, 2020, 09:52:PM »
Carol Ann Lee has appeared in an HBO podcast to accompany the recent TV series:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E76jxCp_F6o

The content speaks for itself: she clearly believes strongly that Jeremy is guilty.  She parrots all the standard pro-guilt arguments.   

My question for Carol Ann Lee is: If you're so sure he's guilty, why isn't that the conclusion of your own book on the case?

I have been rather critical of her book, there is so much omitted and some evidence distorted also.

You can read more of my views on this from the link below.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10153.msg475000.html#msg475000

guest29835

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #986 on: October 09, 2020, 10:35:PM »
I have been rather critical of her book, there is so much omitted and some evidence distorted also.

You can read more of my views on this from the link below.

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10153.msg475000.html#msg475000

I've now listened to her in two or three different interviews, and she doesn't come across as piercingly intelligent. I think her talent is in writing rather than critical thinking.  She is not a denker.  Probably half the people who post regularly on this Forum have a better grasp of the case than she does, notwithstanding all the interviews and research she did.  I love how in the podcast she got worked up about Jeremy having the dog put down.  People have dogs destroyed every day for all sorts of frivolous reasons.  As if that proves somebody is a mass murderer. 

I doubt she carries out all the research herself for these books anyway.  I expect it will be more of a team/committee effort and she is the figurehead/chair, she interviews the key players, she pulls it all together in a manuscript, it's then edited by somebody else, and her name goes on it.

I've been thinking over the point I raised earlier.

To recap:

Book - Affects to be neutral, but strongly implies guilt.

Dramatisation - He's guilty, but door left open for some doubt.  Maybe it was Sheila?  See zombie scene when she looks out of the bedroom window at Colin.  What was going on there then, eh?  Who knows?  Isn't Jeremy a cad, though?  On second thoughts, he must be guilty.

Newspaper articles, podcast, social media - He's definitely guilty, it's so obvious you numpty.  What's wrong with you?

The puzzle is: If she's so sure, then why all the caution?  Let's face it - a book or TV drama can be just as gripping even when we know who the killer is from the start.  If anything, knowing who it is can make it all the more interesting.  It all boils down to how you want to write it, whether it's a book or screenplay. 

One possible explanation is to do with propaganda.  Roch may have some input here, as he takes an interest in these things. 

A theory I have about this is that, if the subject-matter is complex, propaganda is optimal when they (whoever 'they' are) use implication to encourage people to come to the desired conclusion, rather than straight-out telling them what to think.  This sort of subtle, implied propaganda requires a credo or ethos that brings people to a particular coda: in this case, Jeremy is guilty.  The reader or viewer thinks he is watching something neutral and he is being allowed to form his own view that he can then debate with friends, family and work colleagues, when in fact he is being manipulated.  This is far more effective than the more explicit, in-your-face type of propaganda used by guilters online that relies on simplifications and mantras repeated over and over and that can get people's backs up.

In the podcast and in her newspaper articles and on social media, Carol Ann Lee perhaps falls into an error of strategy, possibly under encouragement from her anxious backers.  She reverts to the strategy of overt propaganda, and many viewers, regardless of IQ/intelligence, will find this obnoxious and annoying.  A lot of people don't like having their thinking done for them and are offended by such efforts - one of the reasons I sometimes find dogmatic guilters offensive.

The book and dramatisation are 'smarter' in the sense that the propagandising is more implied, allowing the viewer to believe that what they are watching or reading is truly 'neutral', so that when they do what they are supposed to do and make up their minds that Jeremy is guilty, that conclusion is self-validating and self-affirming.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #987 on: October 09, 2020, 11:57:PM »
Do people write neutral books about, say, the Yorkshire Ripper, hedging their bets about whether he did it?  I don't believe so.  I think almost-everybody is sure. 

If, based on her research, Carol Ann Lee is sure of Jeremy's guilt, then why the need for caution in her book?  It's certain, isn't it?  He did it, according to Carol Ann Lee [and Adam and Steve and Essex Police, etc., etc., etc.]. 

I really don't understand.  Perhaps somebody could help me by explaining the inconsistency?  It would be like Adam writing a book on the case, but ending it by saying: "Well, no-one is really sure that Jeremy did it.  He denies it.  Lots of people think he did it.  And lots of people who knew Sheila in London miss her.  The End."  Thanks Adam.

Why all the reticence and caution?  Is there a risk Jeremy could sue her?  I am not a lawyer, still less a libel lawyer, but I really doubt that this could be considered a serious legal risk.  Any such action would be dismissed as vexatious, surely?  And anyway, so what?  If she and her publishers were sued as part of some sort of defence strategy, it's more publicity for the book.

To my knowledge, James MacNeish has not been sued by David Bain over his book, albeit that is New Zealand law.  Sorry to labour the point, but I simply don't understand.
No wonder you wanted members to concentrate on Episode 3, given the exceptionally moving interview with Colin in Episode 2, whom you accused of contributing to Sheila's schizophrenia. As for David Bain, you are once again woefully ignorant of the case. After the retrial and the Binnie report came the devastating Callinan report, which you may wish to read here: https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2016/08/bain_found_most_likely_to_have_killed_his_family_but_gets_925000_anyway.html/comment-page-1

guest29835

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #988 on: October 10, 2020, 12:07:AM »
No wonder you wanted members to concentrate on Episode 3, given the exceptionally moving interview with Colin in Episode 2, whom you accused of contributing to Sheila's schizophrenia. As for David Bain, you are once again woefully ignorant of the case. After the retrial and the Binnie report came the devastating Callinan report, which you may wish to read here: https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2016/08/bain_found_most_likely_to_have_killed_his_family_but_gets_925000_anyway.html/comment-page-1

(i). Where do I accuse Colin of contributing to Sheila's schizophrenia?  Could you please quote both the post and also link to the thread for context.

(ii). The Callinan report is one opinion, the Binnie report is another.  I have not expressed a view on Bain's guilt or innocence.  Why do you persist in misrepresenting what I actually say/misquoting me?

(iii). Why do you come on here picking fights with me?

Moderators - could you also comment on the above, and as a precaution, I have also reported Steve's post.

Thank you.

guest29835

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #989 on: October 10, 2020, 09:37:AM »
re: Bain

Just to be clear, Steve has misunderstood the analogy I made in the earlier post.

I pointed out that Bain did not sue MacNeish.  Steve seems to be implying that the analogy is flawed due to the Callinan Report, but Steve is wrong, for two reasons:

First, MacNeish published his book in 1997.  The Callinan Report was published in 2016, nearly 20 years later, which means Bain had almost 20 years to bring litigation against MacNeish, either as a convicted man as part of a legal strategy to attract attention and bring the case back to the New Zealand courts, or after 2009, as an acquitted man.  He didn't.

Second, Callinan did not conclude that Bain was guilty.  That was not within his remit.  He was not convening a court to re-convict Bain.  Rather, he was asked to determine a slightly different question: whether Bain was innocent.  His conclusion was that David Bain was not innocent "beyond reasonable doubt", which is not the same as concluding that somebody is guilty. 

I think Steve has assumed that I have taken a certain view about Bain's guilt or innocence that conflicts with his own, but I have not expressed any such view on here, still less a view that differs with Steve's own.  If anything, my observation that David Bain never sued James MacNeish ought to chime with Steve's belief in Bain's guilt.

I would like to ask that Steve stops wasting my time on here, and if he can't stop, then I would kindly request that the moderators step in.

Thank you.