Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.

[JackieD]

Yet you seem to be rejecting Essex man Michael Horsnell's eyewitness account so once again I'll let members make up their own minds.

Obviously you are aware there are several different accounts of Sheila's demeanor

A bit of advice Steve don't believe everything you read

I meant to ask, how did you get on with Paul Harrison's book?

[Adam]

Yet you seem to be rejecting Essex man Michael Horsnell's eyewitness account so once again I'll let members make up their own minds.

JackieD prefers to quote from a book called 'An innocent man' & from apparently speaking to Bamber herself. Rather than accept unbiased books.

[Steve_uk]

Obviously you are aware there are several different accounts of Sheila's demeanor

A bit of advice Steve don't believe everything you read

I meant to ask, how did you get on with Paul Harrison's book?

I wasn't very impressed really. But I do believe Michael Horsnell.

[JackieD]

JackieD prefers to quote from a book called 'An innocent man' & from apparently speaking to Bamber herself. Rather than accept unbiased books.

Once again you are wrong

I posted a passage from an innocent man and said I didn't know how accurate/reliable it was

Numerous quotes are made from numerous books on the Whitehouse Farm Murders as if these are fact
They are not, there is usually nothing to back up these quotes

Most of the time books are written to make money for the author

I am only interested in facts

Go back to the drawing board and prove Neville did not call Jeremy
That should keep you busy for the day

[Jane]

As I have pointed out on numerous times before there would have an endless stream of people who knew the twins far better than Julie. You cannot have forgotten the foster parents the twins stayed with

Yet you still continue to make excuses for Julie putting her hand up to identify the bodies when apparently Jeremy told Julie he was responsible for the twins murder

I have just added Len to the list

You can add Jack Frost to the list as, undoubtedly in their short lives, the boys would have experienced him, but it doesn't mean he could tell them apart. As no one as yet come forward to say they "knew the twins far better than Julie" I have to assume that when push came to shove they A) weren't QUITE certain, B) as they weren't directly involved decided they didn't want to be involved. It's all very well you sitting there offering the services of numerous -and unnamed- unknown 'others', it's more telling that others didn't offer their own services. Apart from ANY other consideration, it seems important to me, that it was a task which required IMMEDIACY. To leave them laying there waiting until an 'appropriate' person came forward to offer their services might have meant a very long wait.

[guest1199]

Well I did quote the post you wrote. After you complained.

From what I've read you're main points for doubting Bamber's guilt is no one knows where Nevill was when June was being shot, and Nevill's first two shots from inches away hit his jaw and lip. But feel free to correct me.

A scenario from a guilter or supporter will make no difference to the case. Just as all the other posts won't. However everyone should supply one if they feel strongly one way or the other. It's surprising how many supporters still don't budge after their scenario is dismantled.

Adam, you need to have a look at the title of this thread again, which is about CAL's book.  The comments I've made so far are primarily about the book. The book asserts that there is forensic evidence to suggest the shots to Nevill's mouth were inflicted upstairs.  CAL also indicates in her interview with Vanesis that he thinks it would have been impossible for Nevill to have gotten calls away after being shot in the mouth, the book does not offer any flexibility in that respect. 

I offered another possible scenario regarding the shots to the mouth as an act of vengeance courtesy of Sheila Caffell.  I did not say that I thought Jeremy was innocent specifically for these reasons, this is where it seems you are misunderstanding me.  I think there are a other reasons why I think Sheila did the crime, I will get to these when I can.

I'm sorry I can't offer more time to discuss the subject with you at the moment; therefore I hope you can accept this as an explanation of where I'm coming from, without the needing to post any more on the subject.

Kind regards
TomG

[Adam]

Adam, you need to have a look at the title of this thread again, which is about CAL's book.  The comments I've made so far are primarily about the book. The book asserts that there is forensic evidence to suggest the shots to Nevill's mouth were inflicted upstairs.  CAL also indicates in her interview with Vanesis that he thinks it would have been impossible for Nevill to have gotten calls away after being shot in the mouth, the book does not offer any flexibility in that respect. 

I offered another possible scenario regarding the shots to the mouth as an act of vengeance courtesy of Sheila Caffell.  I did not say that I thought Jeremy was innocent specifically for these reasons, this is where it seems you are misunderstanding me.  I think there are a other reasons why I think Sheila did the crime, I will get to these when I can.

I'm sorry I can't offer more time to discuss the subject with you at the moment; therefore I hope you can accept this as an explanation of where I'm coming from, without the needing to post any more on the subject.

Kind regards
TomG

Well you have said "JB didn't do the crime".

I know Nevill got shot in the mouth upstairs & would not have been able to speak afterwards.

[Adam]

No Jane, it's not risk it's imperative.

It's imperative that Jeremy gets past the dogs without them barking and alerting Nevill.
It's imperative that while Jeremy slaughters Nevill and June first, they die quietly, so that the twins don't wake up and run amok about the farmhouse looking for places to hide and ruin his pre-laid plan.
It's imperative that his completely unpredictable schizophrenic sister is going to be completely compliant and allow him to shoot her in the neck, making it look like suicide.

None of these can be achieved logically, it can only be done magically, which is idiotic, that's why JB didn't do the crime.

If any of these obligatory scenarios don't work it's a total F**K-up. JB has got to know these things in his strategy and still find go through with it anyway.  If you are suggesting he had contingency plans for the above, what were they?  You're the originator of the "pre-laid plan" but failed to define what it was.

Hoots

[Jane]

No Jane, it's not risk it's imperative.

It's imperative that Jeremy gets past the dogs without them barking and alerting Nevill.
It's imperative that while Jeremy slaughters Nevill and June first, they die quietly, so that the twins don't wake up and run amok about the farmhouse looking for places to hide and ruin his pre-laid plan.
It's imperative that his completely unpredictable schizophrenic sister is going to be completely compliant and allow him to shoot her in the neck, making it look like suicide.

None of these can be achieved logically, it can only be done magically, which is idiotic, that's why JB didn't do the crime.

If any of these obligatory scenarios don't work it's a total F**K-up. JB has got to know these things in his strategy and still find go through with it anyway.  If you are suggesting he had contingency plans for the above, what were they?  You're the originator of the "pre-laid plan" but failed to define what it was.

Hoots

Thanks to Adam's diligence in finding the above:-

A) He obviously did.
B) Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. Whichever, the twins slept.
C) He managed it seemingly with undue effort, other than the need for the second shot.

We KNOW it could have been "a total f**k-up" and it MAY have ended up as being more by good luck than good judgement. Whatever, job still done.

[guest1199]

Adam

This is a total straw-man argument.  The closest you've got to the truth is the fact that I believe JB is innocent. 

TomG says from reading CAL's book he believes Bamber is innocent because Nevill's first two face shots from inches away didn't kill him.

What we're discussing here is why JB decided to shoot Nevill in the mouth and jaw knowing that neither of them were kill shots, while using a weapon that was totally inappropriate and using only one magazine.  JB couldn't afford to fire wasteful shots.  I would be looking at something more like "here's one in the mouth for all the violence I had to suffer when I was a kid, and here's another for all the sexual abuse I had to put up with just to satisfy your perversions, you old b*****d, but according to CAL's book which is pretty thorough on family history, none of it exists.  Nevill was a thoroughly decent guy, even Jeremy would have known that.

I think Nevill was shot deliberately in the mouth from very close range for a reason and that was simply that he got calls away.

Hoots!

[Adam]

Adam

This is a total straw-man argument.  The closest you've got to the truth is the fact that I believe JB is innocent. 

Hoots!

You have just quoted you're own posts.

[guest1199]

Thanks to Adam's diligence in finding the above:-

A) He obviously did.
B) Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. Whichever, the twins slept.
C) He managed it seemingly with undue effort, other than the need for the second shot.

We KNOW it could have been "a total f**k-up" and it MAY have ended up as being more by good luck than good judgement. Whatever, job still done.

All the above along with the fact that the gun and ammunition were totally inappropriate makes your (A), (B), and (C) implausible.  He would also have had to emerge from all this without a scratch on him from a die-hard Nevill.  The pro-guilt argument is further compounded by the fact that the pre-laid plan that you continually refer to simply doesn't exist.

Hoots

[guest1199]

You have just quoted you're own posts.

Adam, you have ceased to make any sense.  You made precious little in the first place.

Hoots!

[Adam]

All the above along with the fact that the gun and ammunition were totally inappropriate makes your (A), (B), and (C) implausible.  He would also have had to emerge from all this without a scratch on him from a die-hard Nevill.  The pro-guilt argument is further compounded by the fact that the pre-laid plan that you continually refer to simply doesn't exist.

Hoots

There have already been threads on the rifle (which I posted for you). As well as threads on who had the better chance of avoiding injury in the kitchen fight.

Bamber obviously had a plan. I guess it was to travel to WHF, kill everyone & frame Sheila.

[Adam]

Reasons why Bamber chose his murder weapon:

It was light.

A silencer could be fitted.

It could store 11 bullets.

Bamber could load it at supper to pretend to go to shoot rabbits.

Bamber could give the police his rabbit story.

Bamber testified he knew how to use the murder weapon.

There was a possibility of completing the massacre without having to reload.

There were not many other rifles at WHF. It was a farm, not a military base.