Author Topic: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.  (Read 103391 times)

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Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #720 on: May 21, 2017, 08:27:PM »
I had a discussion with my dad the other night, one of the scenarios we came up with was this could of been the case and a gun was held to Neville head and he was made to call Jeremy leaving the trail of calls
No Jeremy was a one man band. Sociable enough outside the confines of the Farm but a loner within.

Offline Jane

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #721 on: May 21, 2017, 08:29:PM »
I had a discussion with my dad the other night, one of the scenarios we came up with was this could of been the case and a gun was held to Neville head and he was made to call Jeremy leaving the trail of calls

What self respecting hit man is going to kill 5 people, including twin children for £2000. That's £400 a body!

Offline Adam

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #722 on: May 21, 2017, 08:30:PM »
Reasons why Bamber didn't hire a hit man:

It would be very expensive. It was killing five people.

He would not have the contacts to find one.

Hit men have some morals, either killing other criminals, or the top hit men killing political people. A request to kill innocent men, women and children so Bamber can inherit may be refused by a hit man.

A hit man would want a big up front payment.

A hit man may take an up front payment and then disappear.

Bamber would have to find the money to make an up front payment, discreetly. 

Bamber would have arranged for an alibi to prove he was not at WHF all night.

Bamber would have arranged for the hit man to telephone him, which his alibi would also hear.

Hiring a hit man takes total control away from Bamber. He is now reliant on another person.

A hit man could keep demanding more money to keep quiet.

Everything a hit man would do, Bamber had access to do himself and was capable of doing himself.

A hit man may pull out if things got difficult mid massacre. Such as when Neville got out of bed. The hit man has already been part paid and would not be as motivated as Bamber.

A hit man may refuse point blank Bamber's offer. Bamber is now aware that someone else knows/knew about his plans, pre or post massacre. 

A hit man who is restrained by Neville, June and Sheila will implement Bamber.

Bamber didn't inherit, so didn't pay the alleged hit man. However the hit man has not contacted the police anonymously, and implicated Bamber as revenge.

Bamber would have to engage with other people when investigating where to find a hit man. This could be reported to the police.

If Bamber had the courage to pay for a hit man to have his family killed, he would have the courage to do it himself.

Bamber was only three miles from WHF and could get there without being seen.

If not going to arrange an alibi to stay with him at his cottage, and get the hit man to phone him, he would have made sure he was miles away, with witnesses. Perhaps in London where he often spent time.

Bamber knew how to use the murder weapon, so did not need to hire an expert.

Bamber was fit and strong enough to carry out the massacre himself.

If Bamber did arrange for himself to be miles away, that would create suspision. It was harvest time which was the busiest time of the year.

A hit man may make mistakes in creating the post massacre frame.

A hit man may get restless if not quickly paid after the massacre. Bamber may become the target. If the hit man can kill five people, then he would not hesitate with Bamber.

A hit man could easily implicate Bamber without implicating himself. By simply writing to the police anonymously.

A delay in payment post massacre, will mean the hit man may decide to implicate Bamber.

A hit man would know that his post massacre payment was reliant on Bamber's inheritance. This could take months or years. Or may never happen. So the hit man may refuse or request 100% payment up front.

The hit man may be arrested for another crime in the future. He may decide to make a deal with the police for a lesser sentence, and admit to previous crimes.

Hit men usually just fire a bullet, from a distance. To kill one person. This job was expecting the hit man to force entry to a house with five people inside , kill them all and arrange a frame. A massive departure from the norm. Many hit men would refuse to do this.

A hit man will want lots of notice and time to plan his hit. However Bamber would have only got short notice of Sheila's visit. Sheila was also only staying for a short period.

There are no advantages in Bamber hiring a hit man, and then not giving himself an alibi. 

The evidence shows he did not hire a hit man.

'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Jane

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #723 on: May 21, 2017, 08:36:PM »
Reasons why Bamber didn't hire a hit man:

It would be very expensive. It was killing five people.

He would not have the contacts to find one.

Hit men have some morals, either killing other criminals, or the top hit men killing political people. A request to kill innocent men, women and children so Bamber can inherit may be refused by a hit man.

A hit man would want a big up front payment.

A hit man may take an up front payment and then disappear.

Bamber would have to find the money to make an up front payment, discreetly. 

Bamber would have arranged for an alibi to prove he was not at WHF all night.

Bamber would have arranged for the hit man to telephone him, which his alibi would also hear.

Hiring a hit man takes total control away from Bamber. He is now reliant on another person.

A hit man could keep demanding more money to keep quiet.

Everything a hit man would do, Bamber had access to do himself and was capable of doing himself.

A hit man may pull out if things got difficult mid massacre. Such as when Neville got out of bed. The hit man has already been part paid and would not be as motivated as Bamber.

A hit man may refuse point blank Bamber's offer. Bamber is now aware that someone else knows/knew about his plans, pre or post massacre. 

A hit man who is restrained by Neville, June and Sheila will implement Bamber.

Bamber didn't inherit, so didn't pay the alleged hit man. However the hit man has not contacted the police anonymously, and implicated Bamber as revenge.

Bamber would have to engage with other people when investigating where to find a hit man. This could be reported to the police.

If Bamber had the courage to pay for a hit man to have his family killed, he would have the courage to do it himself.

Bamber was only three miles from WHF and could get there without being seen.

If not going to arrange an alibi to stay with him at his cottage, and get the hit man to phone him, he would have made sure he was miles away, with witnesses. Perhaps in London where he often spent time.

Bamber knew how to use the murder weapon, so did not need to hire an expert.

Bamber was fit and strong enough to carry out the massacre himself.

If Bamber did arrange for himself to be miles away, that would create suspision. It was harvest time which was the busiest time of the year.

A hit man may make mistakes in creating the post massacre frame.

A hit man may get restless if not quickly paid after the massacre. Bamber may become the target. If the hit man can kill five people, then he would not hesitate with Bamber.

A hit man could easily implicate Bamber without implicating himself. By simply writing to the police anonymously.

A delay in payment post massacre, will mean the hit man may decide to implicate Bamber.

A hit man would know that his post massacre payment was reliant on Bamber's inheritance. This could take months or years. Or may never happen. So the hit man may refuse or request 100% payment up front.

The hit man may be arrested for another crime in the future. He may decide to make a deal with the police for a lesser sentence, and admit to previous crimes.

Hit men usually just fire a bullet, from a distance. To kill one person. This job was expecting the hit man to force entry to a house with five people inside , kill them all and arrange a frame. A massive departure from the norm. Many hit men would refuse to do this.

A hit man will want lots of notice and time to plan his hit. However Bamber would have only got short notice of Sheila's visit. Sheila was also only staying for a short period.

There are no advantages in Bamber hiring a hit man, and then not giving himself an alibi. 

The evidence shows he did not hire a hit man.

And a hit man would want to use his own efficient 'piece' rather than what he may have thought of as nothing more than a pea shooter.

Offline Adam

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #724 on: May 21, 2017, 08:39:PM »
And a hit man would want to use his own efficient 'piece' rather than what he may have thought of as nothing more than a pea shooter.

That is right. Bamber would need the hit man to use the farm rifle to support his frame.  So may have to pay him more for the extra risk.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 08:40:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #725 on: May 21, 2017, 08:49:PM »
And a hit man would want to use his own efficient 'piece' rather than what he may have thought of as nothing more than a pea shooter.
Yes I hadn't thought of that before Jane. And no need to blame Sheila..

Offline lookout

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #726 on: May 21, 2017, 08:56:PM »
No Jeremy was a one man band. Sociable enough outside the confines of the Farm but a loner within.





This doesn't make him a murderer Steve. I love my friends and when we meet up for the day I'm in my element,but other than that I could be classed as a loner in some respects,preferring my own company than " joining social circles " with those my age-------I couldn't think of anything worse to be honest,I'd rather the company of my cats. My brother happens to be the same,but probably more so than myself. We're not particularly social or sociable people except to those who we know well.

Offline susan

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #727 on: May 21, 2017, 09:17:PM »
Has anyone ever thought he paid someone to commit the massacre

Hi Lucy

IMO no professional hit man would kill in the manner the family were killed in and I don't think anyone would kill two wee boys for any amount of money IMO these murders were carried out by a deranged person with mental health issues :(

Offline Jane

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #728 on: May 21, 2017, 09:18:PM »




This doesn't make him a murderer Steve. I love my friends and when we meet up for the day I'm in my element,but other than that I could be classed as a loner in some respects,preferring my own company than " joining social circles " with those my age-------I couldn't think of anything worse to be honest,I'd rather the company of my cats. My brother happens to be the same,but probably more so than myself. We're not particularly social or sociable people except to those who we know well.

None of which equates with the personality type Jeremy presents ie a gregarious and wealthy young blade who enjoyed being seen and being the centre of attention.

Offline susan

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #729 on: May 21, 2017, 09:21:PM »
If Nevill couldn't fight back he wouldn't have got downstairs and been brutally beaten.

Bamber was there to execute everyone. Not waste time beating up people who couldn't fight back.

Adam that is one of the reasons I don't think Jeremy murdered his family he would not waste time beating up people his aim would have been to kill them as quickly as possible then flee the scene before he was caught glad we agree Adam.

Offline Lucy522

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #730 on: May 21, 2017, 09:23:PM »
Hi Lucy

IMO no professional hit man would kill in the manner the family were killed in and I don't think anyone would kill two wee boys for any amount of money IMO these murders were carried out by a deranged person with mental health issues :(


Susan I totally agree with you, there is nothing that makes me think Sheila COULDN'T of done it

Offline susan

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #731 on: May 21, 2017, 09:28:PM »
This is my thought Susan why not leave it to the morning it wouldn't of took long for someone to find

Hi Lucy

if Bamber made up the call from his Dad to create an alibi it did not work because IMO this is one of the main reasons why many thought he was guilty because he made up the call surely he would have known that would happen.

Offline Steve_uk

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #732 on: May 21, 2017, 09:31:PM »
Hi Lucy

if Bamber made up the call from his Dad to create an alibi it did not work because IMO this is one of the main reasons why many thought he was guilty because he made up the call surely he would have known that would happen.
He had to weigh up the risks of no alibi with being in situ within minutes and feeding Police his well-rehearsed story.

Offline Adam

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #733 on: May 21, 2017, 09:32:PM »
Adam that is one of the reasons I don't think Jeremy murdered his family he would not waste time beating up people his aim would have been to kill them as quickly as possible then flee the scene before he was caught glad we agree Adam.

Do you think Sheila spent several minutes beating Nevill after he was passed out ?

How do you think the stolls, sugar bowl, crockery got knocked over, and the aga got scratched & lightshade smashed if there was no fight ?

The judge said "Nevill put up a tremendous fight for life".
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.
« Reply #734 on: May 21, 2017, 09:34:PM »
Hi Lucy

if Bamber made up the call from his Dad to create an alibi it did not work because IMO this is one of the main reasons why many thought he was guilty because he made up the call surely he would have known that would happen.

If he didn't make the call, he would still be the number 1 suspect. And he couldn't spend all night insinuating Sheila beforehand.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.