Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.

[guest1199]

I'm out of here for the night.  Thanks to you all for your comments.

Nighty-Night.
Hoots.

[maggie]

I'm out of here for the night.  Thanks to you all for your comments.

Nighty-Night.
Hoots.

Night Tom 

[Lucy522]

I do wonder about that Lucy, as you say mouths etc. bleed profusely and Nevill lost some teeth as well.  They were horrendous injuries and he would have bled profusely and also struggled to cope with the shock and trauma.  It's only in films that people carry on as normal.  Chances are he wouldn't have felt the pain but it's no joke to have bullets pumped into you face breaking your jaw bone and your teeth and he must have been traumatised by it. Poor man.

Yes it doesn't bear thinking about, I would of thought though with half of your jaw blown off the blood would be pumping, there are so many veins and blood vessels etc i would of expected a lot of It, have we ever seen the front of his pyjamas, there are also no bloody prints anywhere which is strange as first instinct would be tocput your hand to the wound? Surely his blood should of been on the gun? As he was already seriously injured?

[Jane]

Yes it doesn't bear thinking about, I would of thought though with half of your jaw blown off the blood would be pumping, there are so many veins and blood vessels etc i would of expected a lot of It, have we ever seen the front of his pyjamas, there are also no bloody prints anywhere which is strange as first instinct would be tocput your hand to the wound? Surely his blood should of been on the gun? As he was already seriously injured?

I've said this many times, Lucy. I get the feeling that some posters don't see it as being much more than a scratch.

[maggie]

Yes it doesn't bear thinking about, I would of thought though with half of your jaw blown off the blood would be pumping, there are so many veins and blood vessels etc i would of expected a lot of It, have we ever seen the front of his pyjamas, there are also no bloody prints anywhere which is strange as first instinct would be tocput your hand to the wound? Surely his blood should of been on the gun? As he was already seriously injured?

I agree Lucy they were horrendous injuries and as you say the face and mouth are copiouslysupplied with blood vessels which would bleed profusely.   He would have put his hand on the wounds as an involuntary action spreading blood onto his hands and beyond.  I would guess it was the blood from his hands on the kitchen worktop.  How he continued to function is hard to imagine.
I would guess it was possible the 'struggle' in the kitchen may have been a bit one sided.  Maybe Neill fell against the table, overturning the chairs as he struggled to protect himself against the killer before he collapsed in a chair when he was shot, beaten and killed. 

[susan]

I agree Lucy they were horrendous injuries and as you say the face and mouth are copiouslysupplied with blood vessels which would bleed profusely.   He would have put his hand on the wounds as an involuntary action spreading blood onto his hands and beyond.  I would guess it was the blood from his hands on the kitchen worktop.  How he continued to function is hard to imagine.
I would guess it was possible the 'struggle' in the kitchen may have been a bit one sided.  Maybe Neill fell against the table, overturning the chairs as he struggled to protect himself against the killer before he collapsed in a chair when he was shot, beaten and killed.

Hi Maggie

excellent post which makes so much sense to me I think Nevil would have fell against the table and crockery fell to the floor poor Nevil so so sad

[JackieD]

Barbara Wilson feels guilty that she didn't speak out early enough to save five lives. She was a survivor of the massacre but a victim of the economic climate of the time whereby if you lost your job at her age you were finished.

Could you supply a source for this statement?

[Caroline]

Our family had a dog too, who barked at everybody, it's their way of welcoming someone, It's also their way of defending their territory, they do both by barking, that's all they can do. It has to be said that a dog gets to know a persons habits; however there is nothing habitual in Jeremy's movements that night if he did commit the crime.  If Jeremy made a habit of climbing through a window in the dead of night at WHF and the dogs were used to it I'd understand, but I think you're havering as we would say up here. 

Hoots!

Yes, I thought you might  - He did make a habit of climbing through the window - the time of day is irrelevant. I think you're 'havering' too - havering a laugh that is!

Why aye man!

[lookout]

Barbara Wilson feels guilty that she didn't speak out early enough to save five lives. She was a survivor of the massacre but a victim of the economic climate of the time whereby if you lost your job at her age you were finished.

Steve don't you also think that Julie would have a pang of guilt at the fact that she too could have saved 5 lives if she'd spoken up during the many months that she'd " known of JB's plans ?"

[Steve_uk]

Could you supply a source for this statement?

It's in Chapter 28 of Blood Relations by Roger Wilkes. In the event that part of her evidence was ruled inadmissible as hearsay but she did feel strongly enough to attend court and testify to Jeremy's arrogance post-murders, in particular when ordering her to clear everything out of Nevill's desk lest Jeremy be reminded of him on any future occasion, whilst simultaneously swinging round on a swivel chair and ending up with feet on the desk.

[Steve_uk]

Steve don't you also think that Julie would have a pang of guilt at the fact that she too could have saved 5 lives if she'd spoken up during the many months that she'd " known of JB's plans ?"

Yes I do. It's a testament to the Bamber's upbringing of their son that he dithered for so long and possibly one explanation for Julie's prevarication that this public schoolboy who outwardly appeared so normal could harbour such wicked thoughts.

[maggie]

Hi Maggie

excellent post which makes so much sense to me I think Nevil would have fell against the table and crockery fell to the floor poor Nevil so so sad

Thanks Susan, you can imagine a big man like Nevil falling against the table and chairs knocking the crockery etc. off the table as he staggered around maybe still trying to grab the gun before he collapsed.
Ghastly pictures it conjures up.

[guest1199]

Yes, I thought you might  - He did make a habit of climbing through the window - the time of day is irrelevant. I think you're 'havering' too - havering a laugh that is!

Why aye man!

Our dog was a labrador mix, his name was Jude after the Beatles song Hey Jude, he was the most amazing friendly gentle dog in the world.  There was not a dry eye in the house when we had to get him put to sleep at 15 years old.  He barked to welcome people, he barked at people he didn't know as well; however you don't have to tell me about your dog, I believe you.  I'm not so sure about JB jumping in and out of windows at WHF.  The word "havering" doesn't mean having a laugh, it means to talk nonsense.  I don't know what "Why aye man! means, perhaps you picked it up when you last visited Brigadoon.

[Jane]

Our dog was a labrador mix, his name was Jude after the Beatles son Hey Jude, he was the most amazing friendly gentle dog in the world.  There was not a dry eye in the house when we had to get him put to sleep at 15 years old.  He barked to welcome people, he barked at people he didn't know as well; however you don't have to tell me about your dog, I believe you.  I'm not so sure about JB jumping in and out of windows at WHF.  The word "havering" doesn't mean having a laugh, it means to talk nonsense.  I don't know what "Why aye man! means, perhaps you picked it up when you last visited Brigadoon.

I believe he made a point of saying he could -had- accessed the house via various windows. Indeed, he made a point of doing so, post murders. My friend's dog only barks when the next door neighbour's dog barks.

Bee' ayve!

[guest1199]

Eh!!! To understand that one, TomG, you need to be adopted into a family into which you feel your only role is to fulfill the life they've prescribed for you, presuming that you'll do it without question. From Jeremy's desire to travel and/or do any sort of menial work he could get, it seems to me that he'd have undertaken anything rather than farm. Unfortunately, his inheritance hung on him doing just that. If he wanted the dosh, it seems he'd have to work for it. Might it have seemed unbalanced that he had to work at something which wasn't to his taste, whilst his sister had it handed to her on a plate and did nothing to earn it? I'm not suggesting such was true. I'm suggesting that it MAY have been how Jeremy saw it. We have him telling someone he had no intention of sharing his money with Sheila so I think it's fair to assume he wasn't prepared to see the family fortune being squandered on her and the boys, NOR was he prepared to work to keep her.

What we're discussing her is why JB decided to shoot Nevill in the mouth and jaw knowing that neither of them were kill shots, while using a weapon that was totally inappropriate and using only one magazine.  JB couldn't afford to fire wasteful shots.  I would be looking at something more like "here's one in the mouth for all the violence I had to suffer when I was a kid, and here's another for all the sexual abuse I had to put up with just to satisfy your perversions, you old b*****d, but according to CAL's book which is pretty thorough on family history, none of it exists.  Nevill was a thoroughly decent guy, even Jeremy would have known that.

I think Nevill was shot deliberately in the mouth from very close range for a reason and that was simply that he got calls away.