Murders at White House Farm by Carol Ann Lee.

[maggie]

No one is saying Neville was shot in bed. If he was in bed Bamber would have got 4 face shots.

Nevill was probably in the process of getting out of bed & standing up. Bamber retreating slightly as Nevill stood,  but continuing to fire, hitting Nevill in the arm and shoulder.

It's highly unlikely that Nevill  was standing when he received the jaw shots as they are at a downward angle therefore he must have been lower than his assailant, so lying, sitting etc. or lower on the stairs than the shooter. 
IMO you would expect heavy blood drips and staining around or near where he was shot as mouth and face injuries do bleed copiously. 

[guest1199]

It's highly unlikely that Nevill  was standing when he received the jaw shots as they are at a downward angle therefore he must have been lower than his assailant, so lying, sitting etc. or lower on the stairs than the shooter. 
IMO you would expect heavy blood drips and staining around or near where he was shot as mouth and face injuries do bleed copiously.

Hi Maggie

There is the possibility that Nevill was cradling the dying June in his arms telling her that help was on it's way when he was shot in the mouth for getting a call away.  It's clear that the mouth shots were malicious and deliberate.  It can be argued that JB hated his father and that's why he did it but these wounds were particularly spiteful, I don't think that JB could have done that to his Father.  It would have to be someone who was absolutely unhinged.

[Jane]

Hi Maggie

There is the possibility that Nevill was cradling the dying June in his arms telling her that help was on it's way when he was shot in the mouth for getting a call away.  It's clear that the mouth shots were malicious and deliberate.  It can be argued that JB hated his father and that's why he did it but these wounds were particularly spiteful, I don't think that JB could have done that to his Father.  It would have to be someone who was absolutely unhinged.

I wonder why you would think there was not reason for Jeremy being "particularly spiteful" to Nevill.

[Adam]

Hi Maggie

There is the possibility that Nevill was cradling the dying June in his arms telling her that help was on it's way when he was shot in the mouth for getting a call away.  It's clear that the mouth shots were malicious and deliberate.  It can be argued that JB hated his father and that's why he did it but these wounds were particularly spiteful, I don't think that JB could have done that to his Father.  It would have to be someone who was absolutely unhinged.

Nevill was cradling June after Sheila had shot her 7 times in bed ? That is a new theory. Is that when Sheila started moaning at Nevill for phoning Bamber ?

All the wounds were spiteful. June in the throat & between the eyes. The twins 8 times in the head. Sheila twice in the neck. There is no reason why Bamber would treat Nevill differently. It wasn't just spite. It was money.

It's doubtful Sheila had thr strenght to pull the trigger. She was Haloperidol.

[Steve_uk]

Hi Maggie

There is the possibility that Nevill was cradling the dying June in his arms telling her that help was on it's way when he was shot in the mouth for getting a call away.  It's clear that the mouth shots were malicious and deliberate.  It can be argued that JB hated his father and that's why he did it but these wounds were particularly spiteful, I don't think that JB could have done that to his Father.  It would have to be someone who was absolutely unhinged.

Speaking of books and their authenticity I think there's space for you yet, perched somewhere between Carol Ann Lee and Claire Powell.

[guest1199]

Let's try another one. In CAL's dramatized account she has JB killing June and Nevill first, while the kids slept on oblivious.  You can say what you like about the noise of the gun, perhaps it was minimal.  But when people die of multiple GSW's it's doubtful if they do it all quietly, there may have be screaming, shouting, crying and pleading going on.

In the real world, with real world logic Jeremy would have realised during his approach to WHF that the twins could  be alerted, running about the house looking for places to hide while all this was going on, but no, jeremy had all sussed out and included sorcery in his pre-laid plan (remember that one Jane J, the pre-laid plan that needs no definition), the twins slept on oblivious, and were compliant enough to die the same way.

Jeremy used the same sorcery on the dogs who despite the quote below from CAL's book didn't even offer a bark to alert Nevill who in the real world would have found Jeremy climbing through the window with a shotgun barrel pressed against his nose. In the real world it was Sheila who did the dirty deed, but this isn't the real world is it?

It's the fantasy world of of the pro-guilt argument where cunning pre-laid plans and sorcery exist, or perhaps Nevill and June decided that it was best to die quietly in their agony rather than wake the twins.

From CAL's book:

"Both dogs were habitually alert to intruders. Crispy was variously described as ‘very noisy’, ‘lively and always nipping at people’s ankles’ with a ‘high-pitched yappy bark’ that he used to good effect on callers. Bruce would also bark when anyone approached the house".

Hoots

[maggie]

Hi Maggie

There is the possibility that Nevill was cradling the dying June in his arms telling her that help was on it's way when he was shot in the mouth for getting a call away.  It's clear that the mouth shots were malicious and deliberate.  It can be argued that JB hated his father and that's why he did it but these wounds were particularly spiteful, I don't think that JB could have done that to his Father.  It would have to be someone who was absolutely unhinged.

Hi Tom, I'm not convinced the shots to Nevill or June were particularly aimed.  I believe it's hard to hit a moving target even if the shooter is used to guns but if June was already on the floor and badly injured when Nevill was shot your suggestion is a possibility. 

I know some on here have a map of how the attack panned out and never deviate from it and
it's true the evidence left by bullet casings tell a story but we cannot know for sure how and when individual events/attacks occurred imo

[maggie]

Let's try another one. In CAL's dramatized account she has JB killing June and Nevill first, while the kids slept on oblivious.  You can say what you like about the noise of the gun, perhaps it was minimal.  But when people die of multiple GSW's it's doubtful if they do it all quietly, there may have be screaming, shouting, crying and pleading going on.

In the real world, with real world logic Jeremy would have realised during his approach to WHF that the twins could  be alerted, running about the house looking for places to hide while all this was going on, but no, jeremy had all sussed out and included sorcery in his pre-laid plan (remember that one Jane J, the pre-laid plan that needs no definition), the twins slept on oblivious, and were compliant enough to die the same way.

Jeremy used the same sorcery on the dogs who despite the quote below from CAL's book didn't even offer a bark to alert Nevill who in the real world would have found Jeremy climbing through the window with a shotgun barrel pressed against his nose. In the real world it was Sheila who did the dirty deed, but this isn't the real world is it?

It's the fantasy world of of the pro-guilt argument where cunning pre-laid plans and sorcery exist, or perhaps Nevill and June decided that it was best to die quietly in their agony rather than wake the twins.

From CAL's book:

"Both dogs were habitually alert to intruders. Crispy was variously described as ‘very noisy’, ‘lively and always nipping at people’s ankles’ with a ‘high-pitched yappy bark’ that he used to good effect on callers. Bruce would also bark when anyone approached the house".

Hoots

I think that's fair comment Tom.

[guest1199]

I wonder why you would think there was not reason for Jeremy being "particularly spiteful" to Nevill.

If there was that much venom between the two, where did it come from?

[Jane]

Let's try another one. In CAL's dramatized account she has JB killing June and Nevill first, while the kids slept on oblivious.  You can say what you like about the noise of the gun, perhaps it was minimal.  But when people die of multiple GSW's it's doubtful if they do it all quietly, there may have be screaming, shouting, crying and pleading going on.

In the real world, with real world logic Jeremy would have realised during his approach to WHF that the twins could  be alerted, running about the house looking for places to hide while all this was going on, but no, jeremy had all sussed out and included sorcery in his pre-laid plan (remember that one Jane J, the pre-laid plan that needs no definition), the twins slept on oblivious, and were compliant enough to die the same way.

Jeremy used the same sorcery on the dogs who despite the quote below from CAL's book didn't even offer a bark to alert Nevill who in the real world would have found Jeremy climbing through the window with a shotgun barrel pressed against his nose. In the real world it was Sheila who did the dirty deed, but this isn't the real world is it?

It's the fantasy world of of the pro-guilt argument where cunning pre-laid plans and sorcery exist, or perhaps Nevill and June decided that it was best to die quietly in their agony rather than wake the twins.

From CAL's book:

"Both dogs were habitually alert to intruders. Crispy was variously described as ‘very noisy’, ‘lively and always nipping at people’s ankles’ with a ‘high-pitched yappy bark’ that he used to good effect on callers. Bruce would also bark when anyone approached the house".

Hoots

Perhaps you were unaware that this particular area of Essex is renown for witchcraft? However, as Jeremy took so long to bring his plan to 'perfection' he probably had no need of its assistance. He could, for instance, have employed some Pavlov-type persuasion on the dogs -I wonder from whom came the information that they barked? I wonder who, of all who gave information re the daily routine of WHF, OTHER than Jeremy, was actually privy to the daily routine. Of course there were risks. NOTHING is risk free. Jeremy must have reckoned that he could handle any he could think of. Those he couldn't, he naturally wouldn't have worried about until it was too late. Rather like having to shoot Sheila twice, actually. It's possible, even in the real world to (almost) get away with murder.

[Steve_uk]

If there was that much venom between the two, where did it come from?

That Jeremy wanted to be master of his own fate and not be tied to an occupation which didn't particularly interest him. He would have checked the routine on the Sunday and Monday nights: the twins had their bath and were in bed by half past seven, probably overawed by their surroundings, which is why Daniel was discovered sucking his thumb as comforter, trapped and unable to turn to either mother or grandmother for solace. Jeremy had been in and out of those windows a hundred times, the dogs knew his smell: they were all sitting ducks for someone who despised them all.

I noted how difficult it is to be a successful parent whilst watching the Three Girls programme this week concerning the Rochdale abuse scandal. Here were girls at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder yet exhibited some of the same problems associated with Sheila and Jeremy who were near the top (there were anecdotes that Sheila would climb out of White House Farm by means of a ladder to meet schoolfriends during the holidays, not unlike the Rochdale girls who attempted to flee parental authority for an evening). Maybe for some teenagers this is just part of the process of growing up, though add criminality into the equation and grudges can smoulder into the final tragedy.

[David1819]

If there was that much venom between the two, where did it come from?

According to Jane J she is 'eminently qualified to know' its was from Robert Boutflour.

MYYYYY GOD!!!!! Steve there are times when your sense of your own superiority and your condescension stagger me. Maggie has said that she is NOT writing from personal experience, I, however, AM, because I can't write from anyone else's experience and I trust my own judgement. I grew up with a female RWB who called herself my mother. I can spot a similar from a mile away. I was constantly compared to members of "our" family. Financial "gifts" came with the reminder that it was "family" money. I was told, on a regular basis that "we don't do/think/say/dress/speak/VOTE!!!!! like that in OUR family" and best of all "You're not one of us and never will be." I believe I'm eminently qualified to know what RWB thought of Jeremy. It was he who dripped poison in Nevill's ear regarding Jeremy, just as my mother did about me, to the rest of her family. You appear to have an out of context soundbite for every occasion. I have just one and it tells everything there is to know. "HOW I LOATHE THAT BOY."

David, I have edited out your emoji.  I am sure you won't be happy about it but my decision is purely because I believe Jane's arguments from 2013 may be in direct contrast to her present arguments but for all that I don't believe her childhood experiences shared within that post should ever be a laughing matter.

[guest1199]

Nevill was cradling June after Sheila had shot her 7 times in bed ? That is a new theory. Is that when Sheila started moaning at Nevill for phoning Bamber ?

All the wounds were spiteful. June in the throat & between the eyes. The twins 8 times in the head. Sheila twice in the neck. There is no reason why Bamber would treat Nevill differently. It wasn't just spite. It was money.

It's doubtful Sheila had thr strenght to pull the trigger. She was Haloperidol.

I think that the theory of Nevill being shot in the mouth for getting a call away is compelling, especially if it was only inches away.  If it was Jeremy who did the dirty deed, he had to make every shot count, having only one totally inappropriate weapon and one magazine, spiteful shots to the mouth don't come in that category,  I don't think a lust for money could cause that sort of hatred either.

Hoots

[Jane]

If there was that much venom between the two, where did it come from?

Eh!!! To understand that one, TomG, you need to be adopted into a family into which you feel your only role is to fulfill the life they've prescribed for you, presuming that you'll do it without question. From Jeremy's desire to travel and/or do any sort of menial work he could get, it seems to me that he'd have undertaken anything rather than farm. Unfortunately, his inheritance hung on him doing just that. If he wanted the dosh, it seems he'd have to work for it. Might it have seemed unbalanced that he had to work at something which wasn't to his taste, whilst his sister had it handed to her on a plate and did nothing to earn it? I'm not suggesting such was true. I'm suggesting that it MAY have been how Jeremy saw it. We have him telling someone he had no intention of sharing his money with Sheila so I think it's fair to assume he wasn't prepared to see the family fortune being squandered on her and the boys, NOR was he prepared to work to keep her.

[Jane]

I think that the theory of Nevill being shot in the mouth for getting a call away is compelling, especially if it was only inches away.  If it was Jeremy who did the dirty deed, he had to make every shot count, having only one totally inappropriate weapon and one magazine, spiteful shots to the mouth don't come in that category,  I don't think a lust for money could cause that sort of hatred either.

Hoots

Maybe you've never felt trapped enough or hungry enough.