Author Topic: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!  (Read 15229 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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For almost three decades my mind has toiled with the uneasy question whether or not Jeremy Bamber is the mass murderer,  when almost everybody else thinks he is?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 03:06:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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A rifle, 25 bullets, five bodies, a telephone call (or two), an inheritance..
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Was there only one gun used in the shooting of these five victims?

Yes

No...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Caroline

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For almost three decades my mind has toiled with the uneasy question whether or not Jeremy Bamber is the mass murderer,  when almost everybody else thinks he is?

So you're not sure?
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline mike tesko

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Did Jeremy plan to kill all of his family, intending to lay blame upon his sister?

Yes

No...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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So you're not sure?

Hi, Caroline

I have always kept that question in the forefront of my mind, until very recently when it became clear to me, that Jeremy could only have shot and killed his sister with the rifle from the first floor window, and staged her death scene with her body in possession of the rifle, post 8.10am.  At this stage, there was an alteration in the body count downstairs and upstairs, which had originally been at a ratio of two versus three, but which had become transformed into one versus four. If I had been Jeremy Bambers counsel during his trial, armed with the information now in the public domain, that would be my argument, and in my closing speech to the jury. The police message log contents is admissible evidence. The specific timed events could not be any clearer. The contents of these key messages passed from the scene to the incident room were sufficient to satisfy staff back at Chelmsford Police station, and elsewhere, that not only had two bodies been found upon entry to the kitchen, but also that one of these two bodies was a male, the other body a female. One of these two deaths known to be a murder, the other a suicide. Facts, recorded at different sources, and believed to be true, certainly by 7.45am. None of the staff which passed or  received these messages have ever questioned the accuracy or otherwise of these documented accounts. Two bodies, a male, a female, a murder, and a suicide, known about by 7.45am. This damning evidence is a key factor in favour of Jeremy Bambers innocence. It's accuracy checkable, by reference to another specifically timed event at 8.10am, 'after a thorough search a further three bodies found upstairs. Five dead in total'. Before cops had even set foot in the farmhouse, a rifle which was the only one of its kind found upstairs was seen by two police officers, Jeapes and Brown, resting against a first floor window. This sighting is important, because with this rifle being there at a first floor window at 7.15am, it was not possible for it to be upon Sheila's body at the same time, either upstairs on the bedroom floor, or downstairs in the kitchen. Now, when I first started to gather my thoughts regarding this information, I wanted to pinpoint the exact window at which the rifle in question had been resting?  However, that precise window is not so important after all. What counts is the fact that the rifle was placed on view upstairs at a first floor window, prior to the firearm officers making their approach to enter the farmhouse. The sighting of the rifle at a first floor window, must be linked to the decision to send into the farmhouse a team of firearm officers to try to bring the seige situation to an end. Now, it doesn't even matter when the rifle was placed there at the first floor window, because whilst ever, and whenever it was in that position at a first floor window it could not have been resting on top of Sheila Caffells body in the main bedroom, or in the kitchen. The rifles location then at 7.15am, provides a huge indication that Jeremy Bamber (a) cannot have shot his sister with that rifle, (b) killed her, (c) staged her body on the main bedroom floor in possession of that rifle, so as to fool police into wrongly thinking that Sheila had taken her own life, so that (d) Bamber would inherit his parents estate(s). Bamber cannot be responsible for his sister's death, whatever the true circumstances of her death were/are. The position of the rifle at a first floor window on the red brick part of the farmhouse (7.15am) prior to the entry of firearm officers at 7.30am, exonerates Bamber from involvement not only in his sister's death, but more importantly, in the actual staging of her death scene, which was then photographed. As if only to make matters worse, cops then adopted the position which Sheila's body in possession of that rifle had been captured in by PC Bird (SOCO), as the exact position her body with the rifle had been found in upon entry. But, this cannot possibly be true, because the police message log contents with timed entries at 7.37am, and 8.10am, disprove that suggestion...

The point I am seeking to make, is that Jeremy Bamber could only have murdered his sister by shooting her dead with the only rifle upstairs, and staging her death scene using the rifle on her body, intending to fool the police into accepting that she had committed suicide was post 8.10am, not at any stage beforehand. If Bamber was the killer of his sister, he had to have done it, after 8.10am, that same morning. But we all know that that is impossible, because armed police entered the farmhouse at just after 7.30am, and that they found Sheila in the kitchen along with the body of her farther. We know there were only three bodies upstairs by 8.10am, five dead in total, the other two bodies already accounted for downstairs...

How did Sheila get shot in the kitchen, if the rifle which was used to shoot her was at a first floor window?

With the rifle at a first floor window (7.15am), and Sheila's body in the kitchen (7.37am), the area alongside her parents bed on the bedroom floor would have been empty at the specified times...
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 04:11:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Stephanie

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Mike posted: "How did Sheila get shot in the kitchen, if the rifle which was used to shoot her was at a first floor window?

With the rifle at a first floor window (7.15am), and Sheila's body in the kitchen (7.37am), the area alongside her parents bed on the bedroom floor would have been empty at the specified times...



Chillingly, SH said to me (Post confession) how the mind can believe anything. And oh how right and cruel he was. The amount of people taken in by his claims, who then came up with their own claims (Me included) in the belief he was a victim. Personal agendas aside; he conned us all.

Mike could it be possible that some of your beliefs have been man made; as mine once were. Like you, I was convinced an MOJ had occurred but I was wrong. And I am not ashamed to publicly admit I was wrong.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 04:16:PM by Stephanie »
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Offline Stephanie

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Mike posted: "How did Sheila get shot in the kitchen, if the rifle which was used to shoot her was at a first floor window?

With the rifle at a first floor window (7.15am), and Sheila's body in the kitchen (7.37am), the area alongside her parents bed on the bedroom floor would have been empty at the specified times...


Maybe any references to the above were made due to human error? And as such have given Bamber the opportunity to use plausible deniability.

Elsewhere, Mike posted: "yes, his case has very similar features to those relied upon to secure his convictions. Similarly, so do my case and his case have something in common with very many of the other know known miscarriages of justice. Exhibits tampered with, witness statements tampered with, mistaken identification evidence, misinterpreted scientific conclusions, bias opinion, lying witnesses, withholding of vital and necessary in all formats, stage managing of crime scene's, mis-production of crime scene photographs which benefit the prosecutions case, and bias summing up by trial judges are amongst the very causes of these miscarriages of justice.

Wouldn't someone like Jeremy Bamber know this sort of thing happens, after all he would have come into contact with many other prisoners and heard their stories. SH knew and in his case used it to suit his agenda of playing the victim.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 04:31:PM by Stephanie »
“The only people who are mad at you for telling the truth are those people who are living a lie. Keep telling the truth"

Offline mike tesko

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Mike posted: "How did Sheila get shot in the kitchen, if the rifle which was used to shoot her was at a first floor window?

With the rifle at a first floor window (7.15am), and Sheila's body in the kitchen (7.37am), the area alongside her parents bed on the bedroom floor would have been empty at the specified times...



Chillingly, SH said to me (Post confession) how the mind can believe anything. Bamber could not have known about the timed police message log contents, or his defence would have relied upon these damning facts... And oh how right and cruel he was. The amount of people taken in by his claims, who then came up with their own claims (Me included) in the belief he was a victim. Personal agendas aside; he conned us all. I am sorry to hear that/this

Mike could it be possible that some of your beliefs have been man made; as mine once were. I have narrowed my arguments down to specific timed events in the police operation. I have no reason to conclude that these timed events are man made lies. If they were man made lies, you would think that the person making them, did so intent upon supporting the accounts given in the witness statement accounts which run with the alternative one body downstairs, four bodies upstairs version of the events Like you, I was convinced an MOJ had occurred but I was wrong. I do not know enough about that case, to give an opinion about it... And I am not ashamed to publicly admit I was wrong. there is no shame for anybody having to admit they might have made a mistake...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Roch

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For almost three decades my mind has toiled with the uneasy question whether or not Jeremy Bamber is the mass murderer, when almost everybody else thinks he is?

Personally I don't think that is correct Mike.  I would say closer to 50/50.  I think one or two decent defence based documentaries could wipe out huge swathes of guilters among the general public also.

Offline Stephanie

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2016, 05:02:PM »
Bamber could not have known about the timed police message log contents, or his defence would have relied upon these damning facts..

I have narrowed my arguments down to specific timed events in the police operation. I have no reason to conclude that these timed events are man made lies. If they were man made lies, you would think that the person making them, did so intent upon supporting the accounts given in the witness statement accounts which run with the alternative one body downstairs, four bodies upstairs version of the events

I agree Mike, if Bamber has known about the message logs he would have relied on them. But why didn't he push to see the message logs before his trial started? And is he only now relying on these to support his claims on innocence? Again, human error could be responsible for the content of the notes made. It happens..

I should make it clear, I am not suggesting a man made belief is a lie. I do not think you are a liar.

I did not lie when I campaigned for SH. I genuinely believed he was a victim of injustice. I was furious when I learned he had lied about his movements on the night of the murder and had omitted this in his evidence. As a point of law, I learned an omission was not a lie per se. But I could not and would not get my head around why he had held this vital information back. The truth started coming out from this point on; though I was actually convinced at the time that this omission could finally clear his name. After all, if he was committing a burglary he wasn't committing a murder.

My belief at this time was man made. I wasn't lying but I must have been in denial? And any unconscious denial lifted the moment he admitted guilt.
“The only people who are mad at you for telling the truth are those people who are living a lie. Keep telling the truth"

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2016, 05:04:PM »
Maybe any references to the above were made due to human error? And as such have given Bamber the opportunity to use plausible deniability.

Elsewhere, Mike posted: "yes, his case has very similar features to those relied upon to secure his convictions. Similarly, so do my case and his case have something in common with very many of the other know known miscarriages of justice. Exhibits tampered with, witness statements tampered with, mistaken identification evidence, misinterpreted scientific conclusions, bias opinion, lying witnesses, withholding of vital and necessary in all formats, stage managing of crime scene's, mis-production of crime scene photographs which benefit the prosecutions case, and bias summing up by trial judges are amongst the very causes of these miscarriages of justice.

The contents of the timed police message logs, 7.37am, 7.38am, and 8.10am were on record, before Jeremy Bamber came into contact with the type of prisoners being alluded to. The recorded facts in these logs, the sighting of the rifle at a first floor window, and the Photographing of the rifle resting against the main bedroom window, prior to the same rifle being photographed upon and with Sheila's body. You do not have to be a prisoner, or have a good education to be able to see that the only rifle found upstairs on the morning of the shootings, was both at a first floor window, and it was photographed at the main bedroom window, before the same rifle was photographed by police with and upon Sheila Caffells body. Nobody has to manipulate anything, the truth is all there in the recorded facts. Bamber is entitled to rely upon this to reinforce his claim from day one, which is that he did not kill his family. His sister was one of the five victims. These facts as alluded to by me here, support the case for him not having shot and killed his sister, for him not having staged her body with the rifle from the first floor window, so that police would be fooled into thinking his sister had taken her own life, there on the main bedroom floor. How could this be true, with the police having the rifle at a first floor window before they photograph it with Sheila's body almost three hours afterwards? A lot can happen in three hours, inside a remote farmhouse. What is a rather disturbing feature in this case, is the involvement by senior officers in the practice of 'informatives' between 9.00am and 10.00am? What was there to work out, if Sheila's body had been laid out on the main bedroom floor with the rifle when police first entered the main bedroom?

The now known facts, enforce Bambers claim that he had not killed his sister, or staged her body to make it look like suicide, after a massacre. Bamber has had no influence  upon me in arriving at this conclusion.  I arrived at this conclusion after careful consideration of the now known facts. If these facts had not been deliberately withheld from Bamber and his defence for his trial, would almost certainly have compelled the jury to reject the prosecutions case in its entirety. Certainly, these are valid grounds of appeal, since these facts were not known to the defence at the time of Bambers trial. Not surprisingly, the police and the prosecution sought to withhold all of this evidence no doubt fully aware of the impact upon its own case...


Wouldn't someone like Jeremy Bamber know this sort of thing happens, after all he would have come into contact with many other prisoners and heard their stories. SH knew and in his case used it to suit his agenda of playing the victim.
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2016, 05:06:PM »
Personally I don't think that is correct Mike.  I would say closer to 50/50.  I think one or two decent defence based documentaries could wipe out huge swathes of guilters among the general public also.

Hi Rich

I may have slightly exaggerated, apologies...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2016, 05:28:PM »
I agree Mike, if Bamber has known about the message logs he would have relied on them. yes, it would almost certainly have formed the main plank in his defence during the trial.. But why didn't he push to see the message logs before his trial started? And I have the original letters sent by his solicitors to police and the CPS, prior to his trial taking place. These fell into my possession after the 2002 appeal. The 'COLP' investigation seized these during its operation. Bambers solicitors requested everything, including the audio recording of Bambers phone call to police at 3.36am, and pS Bews radio message to the incident room immediately after the sighting of the silhouetted figure at a first floor window. Cops and CPS stated they handed over everything, including giving them access to all the photographic material, but this was all nonsense... is he only now relying on these to support his claims on innocence? He is entitled to rely upon any fresh evidence, as is any defendant or appellant... Again, human error could be responsible for the content of the notes made. ItThis new material cannot be explained away as human errors. To begin with, why did cops and the CPS choose to withhold it in the build up to Bambers 1986 Chelmsford Crown Court trial? What about the officers report which alludes to the shooting incident in the kitchen? This report was part of a review carried out in the light of mistakes made during the firearm operation at the farmhouse. Would you refer to these mistakes as errors that Bamber or anybody else may not allude to, or rely upon? Of course not happens..

I should make it clear, I am not suggesting a man made belief is a lie. I do not think you are a liar.

I did not lie when I campaigned for SH. I genuinely believed he was a victim of injustice. I was furious when I learned he had lied about his movements on the night of the murder and had omitted this in his evidence. I understand, because you simply cannot help or advise anyone who lies to you. As a point of law, I learned an omission was not a lie per se. But I could not and would not get my head around why he had held this vital information back. I understand... The truth started coming out from this point on; though I was actually convinced at the time that this omission could finally clear his name. After all, if he was committing a burglary he wasn't committing a murder. I don't profess to know enough about the case to realise the point your making, sorry...

My belief at this time was man made. I wasn't lying but I must have been in denial? And any unconscious denial lifted the moment he admitted guilt.What an awful deception to become a victim of, on top of the fact that as you say he was guilty of, all along...
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 05:29:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline lookout

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Re: The only opportunity Bamber had to kill his sister, was after 8.10am!!!
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2016, 05:52:PM »
When someone wipes out a whole family,they either end up " half-heartedly " trying to take their own lives,or actually succeeding in doing so,or alternatively,pleading insanity and therefore ending their lives in institutions such as Broadmoor or Ashworth,for the criminally insane where appropriate medical treatment is then administered.

In 30 years,Jeremy has given no indication of suffering from a mental illness,nor has he made any attempt to " admit " to carrying out the atrocity in order to be assessed for early release. He could have admitted defeat long before now,but instead has chosen to read through reams of paperwork,where many would have given up and called it a day. He's been determined and steadfast in his quest for innocence and freedom and his preference for solitude has enabled him to focus without distraction.
If I was in his shoes I wouldn't want to converse with anyone anyway !