Author Topic: The Secret Land deal - relatives did not want anyone to find out about?  (Read 40258 times)

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Tyler

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Good point TylerD. She had apparantly been in a strange brooding type mood that evening.It is possible that whilst watching Jeremy load the rifle,she could have been having disturbing violent thoughts and when she did finally flip,the rifle was just simply avaliable.

Offline Tyler Durden

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...and I'm sure I read something about an incident the previous night where a shot was fired in the kitchen.
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Tyler Durden

Offline ngb1066

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Vic, apologies, I forgot, can I also ask you:

3.  Does your 'JB did it' theory view JB as the murderer or does it favour the idea of a hitman?

Dear Keira,

Goodness! Where to begin......

The phone call. 'Terrified' father calls....doesn't call 999, gets phone book, calls witham, back to phone book, calls chelmsford, gets agitated, calls Julie, leaves house, gets overtaken by Police car. (Team JB now creeping time of call and introducing another call to get round some of the problems with this.)

Jeremy adamant father said "Sheila" has got THE gun, so completely rules out anyone else being involved. (Team JB have in the past said he may have misheard this, to introduce someone else)

Read the actual descriptions of what was done to the victims.....Arc of bullets into one of the twins heads, Nevill's injuries to his face, all done by Sheila? A woman whom Jeremy himself admitted to having never seen fire a gun as an adult. How many times did she load the magazine? You try doing it! It's bloody hard going! And by Sheila? Yeah right!

Jeremy leaves gun in kitchen having shot rabbits without the sights on. For a start, especially with the twins in the house, Nevill would never have left it there. Secondly, what would JB have been doing shooting rabbits without the sight? (Bit convenient this rifle just lying around)If JB is innocent and the family framed him, then the silencer wasn't used. How can you shoot all those different people without anyone making an escape without the silencer?Sheila didn't have anywhere near enough blood on her top to suggest she could possibly have shot herself once, moved, then had another go. Oh, and without hardly a trace of anything on her hands to suggest she'd fired the rifle anyhow....

Julie told police that a hitman was to blame. Why? If she was lying then why not simply blame JB. Bit of a strange move to blame someone else instead.

Also WHY? Why would the police believe the evil relatives instead of taking the easier option and just blaming Sheila. Is it not possible that they were telling the truth when members of the police weren't convinced with the initial decision? If you, as a relative found the explanation so completely ridiculous would you not investigate it? Would you welcome JB back into the fold if you believed he may have wiped out half your family?

Have you ever considered how many people would have had to have lied all these years?? Hundreds...Relatives, Police, reinvestigation police, friends, ballistic experts, the list is endless.......and not ONE has ever come forward, even when JB offered ONE MILLION pounds to break cover.....

Just a brief selection of reasons......

Vic - You have set out fairly the main factors which have convinced you of Jeremy Bamber's guilt.  Others have already posted responses but I would like to deal with the points which you have made relating to the rifle and silencer, because there is a genuine contrary argument which can be advanced in relation to each of your points. I apologise to other members of the forum who will have read earlier posts of mine dealing with several of the points but I do believe that it is important that Vic's points are answered. I will deal with the points briefly following the order in Vic's post.

1. The "arc of bullets" fired into the head of one of the twins is not indicative of anything.  The rifle was light in weight and semiautomatic with a light trigger pull.  Anyone, whether or not experienced in the use of firearms, could fire a sequence of shots very rapidly. The "arc" of shots could easily be the result of the end of the barrel moving slightly during the course of the shots being fired.  The number of shots strongly suggests to me that the murderer of the twins was involved in a frenzied attack rather than a cold calculated execution.  A single shot to the head of each of the twins at close range would have been sufficient to cause death.  It would also have been the natural method to be used by a calm and calculating murderer in that there would have been more rounds left in the rifle to deal with the remaining victims.

2. It is not hard to load the magazine of a .22 Anschutz rifle.  At the trial evidence was given that it became progressively harder to load bullets the nearer the magazine came to be full.  The final round (the 10th) required some effort and the jury were invited to experiment themselves with loading bullets into the magazine.  However the first 6 or 7 rounds are very easy to load.  It is only as the spring within the magazine becomes more compressed that loading requires more pressure to be applied.  It is likely in my view that the rifle at WHF was reloaded several times during the course of the shootings, with perhaps 4 or 5 bullets loaded each time.  I have also explained on an earlier thread the ease with which individual rounds can be loaded and fired, by placing a round directly into the breach of the rifle rather than into the magazine. i believe that it is likely that this happened with some of the shots to Nevill and possibly to June.

3. It is perfectly possible to use the Anschutz rifle to shoot rabbits without the telescopic sights being fitted.  The rifle had what are known as "iron sights" fitted as standard (the photographs of the rifle show these clearly) and the telescopic sights are an optional attachment. The standard "iron" sights enable the rifle to be fired accurately and quickly, particularly at close or moderate range.  The telescopic sights assist with shooting accurately particularly at longer range, but only if they have been properly "zeroed". There is no evidence about whether the telescopic sights had been properly and recently zeroed.   If this had not been done, the telescopic sights would have been an impediment to shooting rabbits.  If therefore on the evening before the killings at WHF Jeremy Bamber saw rabbits near the house, he may have found it more convenient to remove the telescopic sights and rely on the standard "iron" sights.  There would be nothing sinister in this.

4. There is evidence that weapons security was lax at WHF.  This was not unusual at the time, particularly for farmers.  Now the accepted practice is for both shotguns and rifles to be stored when not in use unloaded in approved steel cabinets, firmly secured to the premises and in an area of the house where the cabinet cannot easily be seen.  The situation in the mid 1980s was very different. Shotguns and rifles at WHF were not stored in secure cabinets.  If Jeremy Bamber left the rifle on the settle in the scullery at WHF I do not believe it can be said with any degree of confidence that Nevill would have moved it.

5. The evidence is that the ammunition used was Eley hollowpoint subsonic.  Even without the silencer fitted the noise of shots being fired would not have been great.  There would not have been the "crack" generated by standard supersonic ammunition.  It would have been perfectly possible for the shootings at WHF to have been carried out without a silencer being attached to the rifle.  In addition we have no way of knowing the order in which each person was shot so I do not accept that the evidence indicates that a silencer was attached to the rifle at any stage.

Vic - I respect your views and accept that many people share them.  However it is important to point out the contrary views on the points above which are at least as credible as the views you have expressed.  It is also important to remember that if there are two alternative credible conclusions which may be drawn from proven facts, the defendant should be given the benefit of the doubt.



« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 06:12:PM by ngb1066 »

Jackiepreece

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Also remember that in the first few hours after those dreadful events they rallied round JB and tried to support him. JB knows this to be true.

It was only after things were overheard being told to the police that doubts started to emerge and the events of that night were questioned.



Remind me vidvic who overheard exactly what and how many hours did they rally around Jeremy

Please answer this question you are stating what you have put above as fact

Offline Alias

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Sheila didn't have anywhere near enough blood on her top to suggest she could possibly have shot herself once, moved, then had another go. Oh, and without hardly a trace of anything on her hands to suggest she'd fired the rifle anyhow....



There is a photograph on the forum showing a close up of one of Sheila's hands. This picture shows without a shadow of doubt that the police were entirely wrong to tell the court that Sheila's hands were spotlessly clean' when they were anythign but clean. The hand and arm in the photo are blood stained and the hand has a distinctive marking - bruise, oil, or other substance? - which would be entirely consistent with Sheila having fired a gun.

Abs: do you remember which thread that photo can be found under, please? I can't find it.There was also a blood stained hand print on sheila's nightdress which appears to have been Sheila's, that would suggest there was blood on Sheila's palm.

As the police failed to accurately record this crucial evidence, I have no confidence in their findings regarding gun residue - it's known too that Sheila's residue test findings were confused with someone else's.

I don´t remember which thread, but here it is again:


Offline Alias

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Thank you NEWBURY for scuppering my theory. Obviously women and knowledge of guns don't mix   ;)

Hi Tyler, that's an interesting statement in support of SC not doing it - I guess that's your message  ;)

Actually I didn't see the irony of my last post   ;) In all fairness,unlike me,Sheila grew up surrounded by guns so I'm sure she had alot more knowledge than me!


Yes, but if SC did have gun knowledge would she chose to pick up a relatively light weight rifle that required loading with at least 15 rounds, and firing 25 shots (not one missed).

Back to the shotgun, I think that in a moment of madness SC would have used a shotgun as this would be quick and only require loading with 4 cartridges for the murders - and the noise would be irrelevant to a women gone "berserk". IMO 

However if NB had locked the shotgun away maybe it was not available  ???
´

As far as I know, there was not a lock on the cupboard. I don´t know if the office it was in had a lock.

Offline Alias

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Yes, but if SC did have gun knowledge would she chose to pick up a relatively light weight rifle that required loading with at least 15 rounds, and firing 25 shots (not one missed).

Back to the shotgun, I think that in a moment of madness SC would have used a shotgun as this would be quick and only require loading with 4 cartridges for the murders - and the noise would be irrelevant to a women gone "berserk". IMO 

However if NB had locked the shotgun away maybe it was not available  ???

Isn't this ascribing too much logic to somebody described as a paranoid schizophrenic?
Surely if she just flipped out, she didn't think of what the best method of execution was or what the best chambering option was, as that would set the scene for a slightly more pre-meditated killing.

Hi, Tyler. I obviously don´t know whether Sheila committed the murders or not. But I have read that murders by paranoid/schizophrenics (or schizophrenics) ARE in fact often well planned - there IS some logic behind most of them. And most involve family members.

Jackiepreece

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Bring it on Vicvid the insider to the relatives, now is the time for you to put your facts to NGB1066

I live for these moments

Tyler

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  +1 NGB. If ever I get in trouble,I would want you to represent me   ;D

Offline Tyler Durden

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Hi, Tyler. I obviously don´t know whether Sheila committed the murders or not. But I have read that murders by paranoid/schizophrenics (or schizophrenics) ARE in fact often well planned - there IS some logic behind most of them. And most involve family members.

Hey there Abs.
I appreciate your point of view but would like to offer a counter.
Through some aspects of my work, I deal with a lot of people with mental health problems and in particular paranoid schizophrenics. Whilst I do concede that on occassion they will plan something meticulously, the actual planning in some cases is poorly thought out.
In other cases, there is no comprehensible logic to the planning and it just appears random to a level headed mind.

I'm not saying she did or did not do it, as I am still in a 50/50 stage.
It wasn't so long ago that I believed JB was guilty without any doubt.
Now I have some doubts.
TALK HARD!
Tyler Durden

Jackiepreece

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Oh NGB1066 look what you have done frightened him off  plus 1 :)

He has just gone >:(


Tyler he was my friend first but if its a murder trial you can have him :)

Jackiepreece

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Brilliant Tyler Durden we love fence sitters it was becoming boooooooooooooring

lucy70

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5. The evidence is that the ammunition used was Eley hollowpoint subsonic. Even without the silencer fitted the noise of shots being fired would not have been great.  There would not have been the "crack" generated by standard supersonic ammunition.  It would have been perfectly possible for the shootings at WHF to have been carried out without a silencer being attached to the rifle.  In addition we have no way of knowing the order in which each person was shot so I do not accept that the evidence indicates that a silencer was attached to the rifle at any stage.
 
Posted this link a while ago about the difference in noise whilst using both types of bullets http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X7Td2JMLhc and whilst I respect your opinion NGB1 have to say that I find it really hard to believe that no one would have heard this if a silencer hadn't of been fitted as it was in the middle of the night when noise tends to sound louder.


Offline grahameb

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Yes, but if SC did have gun knowledge would she chose to pick up a relatively light weight rifle that required loading with at least 15 rounds, and firing 25 shots (not one missed).

It depends how you look at it. I would say that the victims were shot at very close range? And if that was so then several shots missed their target, such as arms etc. Those I would count as a miss if the shots were meant to kill the victim. On the other hand if Jeremy shot them he was a very good shot apparently and he would have been more accurate. Similarly if a "hit man" had been hired, than I doubt if he would get much work after that very "unprofessional" job?

Tyler

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Oh NGB1066 look what you have done frightened him off  plus 1 :)

He has just gone >:(


Tyler he was my friend first but if its a murder trial you can have him :)

Dont worry Jackie,I wouldnt dream of trying to steal your forum crush   ;)  aint love grand  :-*