Author Topic: What makes Bamber innocent?  (Read 351188 times)

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Offline David1819

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3075 on: June 29, 2016, 12:26:PM »
You posted some text from the Campaign Teams website (written by them) and presented it as being a direct quote from "Michael Turner appeal notes 2002".

You then used the "quoted" text to attempt to reinforce your arguments.

Whether the above was unintentional or not, I felt it important to correct your misjudgement.

I didn't say it 'is' fictitious. I said (and you even quoted my post):

Which is an opinion, based largely on what has gone before. I did not suggest that you were required to subscribe to such an opinion.

Well that's an assumption on a number of different levels. The campaign team haven't actually  quoted Michael Turner QC at all, they simply added a reference suggesting that some information came from his notes, which particular bit of information, is however a mystery.

Simply put your suggesting that the CT are fabricating or misrepresenting Michael Turner QC notes? Fair enough that's a plausible opinion but I don't see any good reason to believe that is the case.

Michael Turner QC put forward a number of utterly ludicrous grounds in the 2002 appeal, which in the end he couldn't even continue to argue himself, as can be seen from the following extract from the 2002 appeal judgement:

The appeal Judgment put forward to the public is a white wash, Like everything in this case you must dig deeper than what is said on the surface to the public. Michael Turner's accusations against the police and CPS conduct are perfectly valid arguments, However MT did not aggressively attack the sound moderator evidence, believing the absence of Sheila's DNA would be sufficient. The COA upheld the conviction based on the sound moderator thus the COA are not going accept allegations of corruption if they believe the sound moderator evidence to be genuine. 

You no doubt think that Mr Turner's involvement in the case (if that is the case) somehow adds weight or reinforces an 'innocent Bamber' view, hence your reference to one of his former roles. It doesn't 'in my opinion' add or detract from either a guilty or innocent view.

Put it this way if the argument about the shell casings came from Distefano's notes I would no problem agreeing with your opinion on the matter.  :))


The article linked below is worth a read. The following extracts seem to sum it up quite well:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9716069/Devils-advocate-Michael-Turner-prepares-for-his-toughest-case.html


What you quote there is not specific to JB, However you fail to quote the one extract that is, for some reason  ::)

Quote
Does he believe Bamber is innocent? “Passionately.”

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3076 on: June 29, 2016, 12:27:PM »
Nobody at the trial, other than the prosecution, the cops and the relatives, knew that court exhibit 9 (DRB/1) the silencer, had supposedly had several different exhibit references (SBJ/1' SJ/1 and DB/1), previously. They kept 'that' information quiet, because they knew that if the defence had got wind of it, that the jury would almost certainly have rejected it as a reliable piece of evidence...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 01:35:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

guest2181

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3077 on: June 29, 2016, 01:03:PM »
Simply put your suggesting that the CT are fabricating or misrepresenting Michael Turner QC notes? Fair enough that's a plausible opinion but I don't see any good reason to believe that is the case.

There are a large number of claims and accusations written on the campaign teams website. They provide references apparently justifying their claims, however when those references are actually examined, it is usually the case that the reference either doesn't corroborate their claims at all, or a very one sided assumption has been made, or something is being viewed out of context.

A classic example is their claim that the police were in conversation with somebody inside the house.

I suspect that the information which you attempted to pass off as a direct quote from Turners appeal notes, follows this same pattern.

The appeal Judgment put forward to the public is a white wash .....

Oh, well that settles that then, let's all go home.  ::)
Needless to say, I do not agree with your view.

Put it this way if the argument about the shell casings came from Distefano's notes I would no problem agreeing with your opinion on the matter.  :))

I am not asking you to agree. You seem to be derisory towards people/groups sporadically, as if it's an attempt to come across as being reasonable.

It's not that long ago when you were rubbishing both Mike and the Campaign Teams claims. Now you tell us that you see no reason why the Campaign Team would lie.

It's a bit weird to tell you the truth.

What you quote there is not specific to JB, However you fail to quote the one extract that is, for some reason  ::)

I quoted two extracts which were relevant to him representing people who were not innocent, which was the subject of my preceding paragraph, which offered my opinion that his involvement didn't impact in any way on the likely guilt or innocence of Jeremy. You appeared to have suggested his involvement scored you some points.

Offline Caroline

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3078 on: June 29, 2016, 01:08:PM »



What you quote there is not specific to JB, However you fail to quote the one extract that is, for some reason  ::)

Quote from Michael Turner after being asked the following question;

But he has also represented the likes of Jeremy Bamber, who on Thursday lost his latest appeal against a whole-term life sentence for the murder of five relatives. So what is it like to stand up in court and plead the case for a killer?

“Everybody asks me that,” says this expert cross-examiner, looking sternly over the top of his half-moon glasses. “The answer is that you don’t know if someone’s guilty. You take instructions from your client. You think: 'Oh no, this sounds really unlikely.’ Then you test it and find out that what he says might actually be true. A jury might believe him. So you give it everything you’ve got.”

His quote doesn't seem to apply to JB given that ......

Quote

170. As observed by Mr Temple, QC, who has represented the prosecution at this appeal, there was a stark contrast between the allegations made on behalf of the appellant in the opening of this appeal in the full glare of media publicity, and the case that Mr Turner, QC, on behalf of the appellant felt able to advance when the evidence had been examined. It should be understood, particularly since his closing remarks did not attract the same degree of media coverage, that the appeal in this regard is a very different one that we now have to consider than might have been anticipated from the opening. Some of the very serious allegations made against police officers were manifestly wrong, and Mr Turner has recognised that position by not pursuing such matters once the fact became apparent.

Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3079 on: June 29, 2016, 01:44:PM »
What everyone has to remember, is that at all times,  a QC has to bear in mind, the 'damage' which can be caused to 'the Criminal Justice System', and the very livelihood they themselves rely upon. I have been represented by solicitors, barristers and Queens Counsel, on many occasions. The overall impression I get, is that these people from these groups although supposedly there to represent their clients best interests, invariably (but not always) tend to think about their own interests, and in particular, the 'integrity' of the system that they operate and work, within...

These representatives are scared that the judges they appear before, might report them (but not always) to the law society, with a view to getting their fees stopped (this applies in cases which involve legal aid fees)...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3080 on: June 29, 2016, 01:46:PM »
What everyone has to remember, is that at all times,  a QC has to bear in mind, the 'damage' which can be caused to 'the Criminal Justice System', and the very livelihood they themselves rely upon. I have been represented by solicitors, barristers and Queens Counsel, on many occasions. The overall impression I get, is that these people from these groups although supposedly there to represent their clients best interests, invariably (but not always) tend to think about their own interests, and in particular, the 'integrity' of the system that they operate and work, within...

These representatives are scared that the judges they appear before, might report them (but not always) to the law society, with a view to getting their fees stopped (this applies in cases which involve legal aid fees)...

Jeremy's case, turned out to be, ' one of these cases'...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3081 on: June 29, 2016, 01:47:PM »
Jeremy's case, turned out to be, ' one of these cases'...

Only, because he ended up, being convicted of killing his sister, even though his sister was still alive inside the farmhouse after cops forced their way in, at around 7.30am...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3082 on: June 29, 2016, 01:55:PM »
I think there should be changes made, to stop judges reporting solicitors, barristers, and Queens Counsel to the law society (legal aid board), with a view to getting fees stopped. This is because a defendant should receive the best defence they could expect to receive when placed into such a scenario. In Jeremy's case, MT was ' fearfull' that he might not get the fees he was entitled to receive. I have been there myself, with solicitors, barristers, and QC's, where they 'could only go so far'...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3083 on: June 29, 2016, 01:58:PM »
I think there should be changes made, to stop judges reporting solicitors, barristers, and Queens Counsel to the law society (legal aid board), with a view to getting fees stopped. This is because a defendant should receive the best defence they could expect to receive when placed into such a scenario. In Jeremy's case, MT was ' fearfull' that he might not get the fees he was entitled to receive. I have been there myself, with solicitors, barristers, and QC's, where they 'could only go so far'...

I was represented, by 'Michael Mansfield, QC' in my February, 1994, appeal, when the judges at the appeal, threatened to implement the proviso, if Mansfield, QC exercised his right to take the circumstances of my case, to ' The House of Lords'...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3084 on: June 29, 2016, 02:00:PM »
There are 'different' types of justice, depending upon who you are, whether or not you pay for being legally represent, or if you get legal aid...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 02:09:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3085 on: June 29, 2016, 02:09:PM »
There are 'different' types of justice, depending who you are, whether or not you pay for being legally represent, or if you get legal aid...

Let's get the facts right, those who purport to represent your interests, especially those who are receiving 'legal aid', are affiliated to the 'system'...

This, 'restricts' what they can actually do for you...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3086 on: June 29, 2016, 02:11:PM »
In Jeremy's case, he too was so 'restricted'...

This is 'because' his defence was funded by 'legal aid'...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3087 on: June 29, 2016, 02:12:PM »
In Jeremy's case, he too was so 'restricted'...

This is 'because' his defence was funded by 'legal aid'...

As a result, MT could only go 'so far'...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3088 on: June 29, 2016, 02:14:PM »
When you are a 'QC', and you are expecting to receive 'legal aid fees' of £3,500 + per hour, you do not upset the very system that is paying your salary, to pay you for your services, if what you are doing, is 'bringing the Criminal Justice System Into disrepute'...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 02:17:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #3089 on: June 29, 2016, 02:18:PM »
When you are a 'QC', and you are expecting to receive 'legal aid fees' of £3,500 + per hour, you do not upset the very system that is paying your salary, to pay you for your services, if what you are doing, is 'bringing the Criminal Justice System Into disrepute'...

It's all about money, not justice...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...