Author Topic: What makes Bamber innocent?  (Read 348290 times)

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Offline Adam

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #330 on: May 03, 2016, 06:36:AM »
At trial, defence lawyers will speak about the evidence which is not available. No witnesses, no murder weapon etc. Although in this case the murder weapon was crucial to the frame.

After conviction supporters will again talk about evidence no one has seen. Which the police are apparently hiding away. Or saying that evidence has been discovered but not saying what it is.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline Adam

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #331 on: May 03, 2016, 06:39:AM »
 https://youtu.be/mmCART1vcCo

At least Mike posts his forensic evidence discoveries.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #332 on: May 03, 2016, 09:41:AM »
Most of it is simply material relating to Jeremy's complaints after the trial and the various Inquiry's which took place into police conduct.  The evidence is a different matter and that was before the jury.  This constant reference to hidden material which will free Bamber is just a smokescreen.

Matters which were not placed before the jury because cops and CPS deliberately withheld access to such material is 'evidence', once it becomes known. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not J has complained about these tactics by cops or the CPS. Since, but for cop dishonesty the jury would have considered the 'missing' evidence in question. Just because the jury did not hear 'this evidence' during the trial does not 'invalidate' it as evidence. Of course its evidence, no matter whether J or anybody else has since found out about it, or complained about it, or discussed it on a forum such as this. Yes, there is still material being withheld, all of which is potential evidence that is capable of establishing that J is 100% innocent. Why would cops and CPS still after over 30 years be seeking to withhold it?

The answer to these questions is that cops know when Sheila actually died, how she died and that she was shot with two different weapons. She was shot once downstairs in the kitchen whilst the anshuzt rifle was upstairs resting against the bedroom window. For confirmation of this you need to get your hands on the currently withheld 'Officers Report' relating to the shooting incident downstairs in the kitchen at the time of entry. Why would such a report exist, yet cops and CPS seek for over 30 years to deliberately withhold it. So, that is evidence there. The evidence in question being the actual existence of such a report, about how Sheila got shot downstairs in the kitchen whilst the anshuzt rifle was resting against the bedroom window upstairs (that too is evidence). It is 'evidence' that 'two bodies, not one' was reported as being 'found downstairs' in the 'kitchen', after and inclusive of the reported discovery of dads body. Again, that is 'evidence' that we now know about, which the jury never got chance to hear because cops and CPS withheld the true contents of the police message logs (that is also evidence). If per chance the cops, CPS and people like you, want to throw in the argument that PC Collins mistakenly identified dads body as the body of a female, then fine go ahead. Since, this will be counter argued that any such mistake only involves one of the two bodies found downstairs, and reported as found downstairs (which is evidence). It is 'evidence' that a female body was found downstairs after dads body itself had already been found downstairs in the same kitchen. Again, this is evidence contained in the previously undisclosed police message logs. It is 'evidence' that not only was it confirmed that two bodies had been found upon entry at 7.37am, but this fact was re-affirmed at 7.38am, and later at various stages all the way up to 8.10am, with another previously undisclosed message being past, that 'after a thorough search of the premises', it states, 'a further three bodies found upstairs' and 'five dead in total'. Again, that is 'evidence'. The fact that at the time of the trial 'two different versions of events' regarding the body count downstairs and upstairs, and the fact that one version of these events was being deliberately withheld, is I am afraid 'evidence' that there has been, ney there was and there is a cover up surrounding 'the death' of at least one of the five victims. Now, you can pretend to be as brain dead as you like, but it should be obvious to someone even as biased as you are, that cops certainly knew and they know exactly how, when and where one of the female victims was shot and died inside that farmhouse. Again, this is evidence. The time one of these females died is 'important' to the validity of these convictions, because if one of the two females was 'not dead' when cops got into the kitchen, then it raises very serious legal and ethical question marks over the legitimacy of the convictions. I will leave you to try to fathom out which of the two females was found downstairs, but I will give you a clue. It was either June Bamber, or it was Sheila Caffell (and that is evidence). I will provide you with an additional clue to try and guide you toward the correct interpretation - the female body found downstairs had committed suicide. Again, more 'evidence'. How much 'evidence does one need before they are satisfied that the cop version of events as relied upon at trial was a completely dishonest account regarding where the positioning of the 5 bodies were found, met with or confronted by when they entered the kitchen downstairs, and the two bedrooms upstairs. Why did cops and CPS deliberately withhold the true version of the events as recorded in the cop message logs if they had not told lies, and had got 'nothing to hide'? Again, that is 'evidence'. Two bodies downstairs, three bodies upstairs, versus one body downstairs, four bodies upstairs, that is the 'issue' that the jury should have been deciding this case on, not whether Sheila or Jeremy were the killer. That, my friend, is 'evidence', it is evidence of a cover up. Do you know something, its people like you that make me angry. Let me remind you about what the judge told the jury in his biased summing up. He said that there was 'no evidence' of a 'third party' involvement in these killings. It had to be either Sheila or Jeremy. Well, that is not right, because it didn't have to have been either Sheila or Jeremy. It only got presented like this because cops and CPS deliberately withheld 'evidence' of the 'other' version of where each of the five bodies had been found, contained in the withheld police message logs. Now, that is 'evidence'. There clearly existed, albeit a fact only known to cops and the CPS during the trial, that 'evidence' of at least one of the two females still being alive at the time cops entered the kitchen, by reference to, and with reliance upon the content of the contemporaneously recorded police message logs. That only 'three bodies had been found upstairs' by 8.10am that morning. That is 'evidence', whether you choose to like it or not. Had the defence known about the existence of these police message logs, I can say with 100% certainty that their case would have been as follows. They would have defended J by stating that Sheila was still alive downstairs in the kitchen when police entered. At that time she was 'unarmed'. That cops miscalculated the reason why the family own rifle suddenly appeared at the bedroom window. That cops thought the placement of that rifle there meant Sheila was resting upstairs, or perhaps being prepared to 'surrender'. In any event what cops did not bargain for was them being confronted by Sheila downstairs in the kitchen. During a struggle over possession of one of the cops guns she was shot and presumed to have died there in the kitchen from that wound. This would be a mistake because that first shot had not as was originally thought killed her. At this precise moment the rifle was still resting against the window upstairs. Cops reported the two bodies found in the kitchen, dads body first, then a female. That female could only have been a reference to Sheila. This is because cops reported that during the struggle between one of the cops in possession of his weapon, with Sheila, how she had pulled the barrel of his gun into her throat at the time a single shot was discharged from the gun. Her death being therefore described as a 'suicide'. How cops had gone all the way through the house, downstairs, and then upon reaching the upstairs part of the farmhouse, how 'a further three bodies' had been found by 8.10am. By 10 O'clock, how PC Bird (soco) had been instructed to photograph the bodies 'insitu', now laid out in a completely different configuration, no longer two bodies downstairs, three bodies upstairs. Now, the photographs showed only one body downstairs, with the other four bodies upstairs. It would not have been necessary for Rivlin QC to outline exactly how this 'problem' in the prosecutions case had arisen. All he needed to have done, had he been given the opportunity was to advance the two different versions of the events as documented by the cops themselves, to be able to satisfy the jury that J could not possibly have been responsible for shooting dead his sister upstairs in the bedroom, of staging her death there, of removing the silencer after he had killed her upstairs in the bedroom with use of it, in the bedroom. He could not possibly have been responsible for doing any of that or this, because Sheila was still alive downstairs in the kitchen when cops entered. She had not been shot by that stage, and the gun which cops said had fired both shots which killed her, was still resting against the bedroom window upstairs when she got shot downstairs and was reported as being dead, by 'suicide'. What a mystery, she had supposedly committed suicide, ' downstairs', with use of a gun that was 'upstairs at the bedroom window'. In any event, if she was dead downstairs in the kitchen from as early as 7.37am until 8.10am, how had her body managed to end up on the bedroom floor by 10am in order for it to be photographed there? Had she 'not' been dead earlier? But if she had not been killed downstairs, had not as it were committed suicide, how had the second shot that was inflicted under her chin  been made?

Surely, Jeremy could not have been responsible for shooting her once, let alone twice in these circumstances...
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 09:53:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #333 on: May 03, 2016, 10:09:AM »
The two versions of where the bodies of the five victims were found (two downstairs, three upstairs, versus, one downstairs, four upstairs) should have been the main argument during the 1986 trial, and the 2002 appeal. But this was not possible because cops and CPS did not disclose the content of the police message logs until 'after' the 2002 appeal was turned down...

It should be obvious why cops and CPS did not want a court to determine the 'significance' of this previously unseen, unconsidered material...

Cops have lied about the circumstances of Sheila Caffells death. They know exactly when and how she got shot once downstairs, secondly upstairs. Its no good anyone trying to defend what these cops have done and what they did. The truth of the matter is that cops ended up shooting an unarmed Sheila downstairs in the kitchen. The most likeliest explanation for her being downstairs in the kitchen when cops entered was that she was preparing to surrender, a fact supported by the placement of the rifle at the upstairs window. All that changed when as the internal kitchen door was gradually pushed open the barrel of a cop gun came protruding around the opening edge of the door...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

John

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #334 on: May 03, 2016, 10:47:AM »
The two versions of where the bodies of the five victims were found (two downstairs, three upstairs, versus, one downstairs, four upstairs) should have been the main argument during the 1986 trial, and the 2002 appeal. But this was not possible because cops and CPS did not disclose the content of the police message logs until 'after' the 2002 appeal was turned down...

It should be obvious why cops and CPS did not want a court to determine the 'significance' of this previously unseen, unconsidered material...

Cops have lied about the circumstances of Sheila Caffells death. They know exactly when and how she got shot once downstairs, secondly upstairs. Its no good anyone trying to defend what these cops have done and what they did. The truth of the matter is that cops ended up shooting an unarmed Sheila downstairs in the kitchen. The most likeliest explanation for her being downstairs in the kitchen when cops entered was that she was preparing to surrender, a fact supported by the placement of the rifle at the upstairs window. All that changed when as the internal kitchen door was gradually pushed open the barrel of a cop gun came protruding around the opening edge of the door...

This is all purely speculation on your behalf.  The forensic evidence tells a different story unfortunately.  Sheila was shot twice where she sat on the bedroom floor.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 10:48:AM by John »

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #335 on: May 03, 2016, 10:48:AM »
It is obvious why the content of the police message logs were 'deliberately' withheld - the prosecution case would have 'collapsed'...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #336 on: May 03, 2016, 11:06:AM »
This is all purely speculation on your behalf.  The forensic evidence tells a different story unfortunately.  Sheila was shot twice where she sat on the bedroom floor.

No, it is 'not speculation', the facts exist in the police message logs that have been deliberately kept back from the defence, the court, the jury, the appellate court - two bodies downstairs, three bodies upstairs. A male body, and a female body downstairs. A murder, and a suicide, known about before the other three bodies were located upstairs at 8.10am. PC Collins bull shit explanation out of the window, regarding mistakenly identifying dads body for the body of a female. At best all it indicates is that he made a mistake with the sex of one of the two bodies in the kitchen, not both of them. A fact established by confirmation that after dads body had been reported as found, was the fact that the body of a female was also present in the kitchen. Mention of the presence of a female body is made 'twice' directly after reference to finding dads body. The truth is that there were two bodies in the kitchen, not one (at least not one until Sheila temporarily recovered from the shock and the effect of having been shot in the throat downstairs in the kitchen, and making her way upstairs, before collapsing on the bed in her parents bedroom. The same bedroom where she had placed the rifle at the window at 7.15am, loaded with a solitary bullet). The defence had a right to know about the existence of these message logs, and the location of the bodies inside the farmhouse at the time these timed messages were being passed. The court was deceived, because cops and CPS deliberately presented a scenario of where the bodies had been found upon entry, by relying upon false testimony and photographs which referred to where the bodies of the victims had 'ended up' after a training exercise during which time the rifle that Sheila had placed at the bedroom window was brought by cops to her body for 'gauging purposes', and as the fingers of her right hand were being positioned upon or against the trigger mechanism, the gun went off and fired the fatal bullet beneath the point of the chin and killed her. She died at 9.13am, upstairs on the bedroom floor. That is what it says in the officers report which is being deliberately withheld under pii...
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 11:08:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

John

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #337 on: May 03, 2016, 11:08:AM »
No, it is 'not speculation', the facts exist in the police message logs that have been deliberately kept back from the defence, the court, the jury, the appellate court - two bodies downstairs, three bodies upstairs. A male body, and a female body downstairs. A murder, and a suicide, known about before the other three bodies were located upstairs at 8.10am. PC Collins bull shit explanation out of the window, regarding mistakenly identifying dads body for the body of a female. At best all it indicates is that he made a mistake with the sex of one of the two bodies in the kitchen, not both of them. A fact established by confirmation that after dads body had been reported as found, was the fact that the body of a female was also present in the kitchen. Mention of the presence of a female body is made 'twice' directly after reference to finding dads body. The truth is that there were two bodies in the kitchen, not one (at least not one until Sheila temporarily recovered from the shock and the effect of having been shot in the throat downstairs in the kitchen, and making her way upstairs, before collapsing on the bed in her parents bedroom. The same bedroom where she had placed the rifle at the window at 7.15am, loaded with a solitary bullet). The defence had a right to know about the existence of these message logs, and the location of the bodies inside the farmhouse at the time these timed messages were being passed. The court was deceived, because cops and COS deliberately presented a scenario of where the bodies had been found upon entry, by relying upon false testimony and photographs which referred to where the bodies of the victims had 'ended up' after a training exercise during which time the rifle that Sheila had placed at the bedroom window was brought by cops to her body for 'gauging purposes', and as the fingers of her right hand were being positioned upon or against the trigger mechanism, the gun went off and fired the fatal bullet beneath the point of the chin and killed her. She died at 9.13am, upstairs on the bedroom floor. That is what it says in the officers report which is being deliberately withheld under pii...

None of which renders Bamber innocent.  In fact, the forensic evidence renders your theory impossible.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 11:09:AM by John »

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #338 on: May 03, 2016, 11:20:AM »
None of which renders Bamber innocent.

Yes, it does...

Cops and CPS know that J could not have shot and killed his sister Sheila upstairs in the bedroom by shooting her twice there with use of the anshuzt rifle, or be responsible for staging her death scene in that bedroom, because she wasn't shot twice in the bedroom, and the same rifle did not fire both of the bullets which led to her death. How could Sheila have even been shot downstairs with the rifle that supposedly fired the bullet across her throat upstairs at the bedroom window, where it had been from 7.15am that same morning?  The big problem cops have is that (1) Sheila was shot downstairs in the kitchen with use of a cop weapon, (2) they have falsely presented ballistic evidence suggesting that the rifle at the upstairs bedroom window fired the shot downstairs in the kitchen, but it could not have been, because at 7.37am, and by 7.38am, the rifle they are trying to fool us with, was 'unfortunately' for them, still resting at the upstairs window where it had been since 7.15am, (3) they are suggesting that the rifle which fired the fatal shot under Sheila's chin  was the rifle at the window, but without explaining how 'that' rifle got from the bedroom window, after 7.15am, onto Sheila's body where it was eventually photographed by PC Bird (soco) after 10am...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #339 on: May 03, 2016, 11:22:AM »
There is 'no forensic evidence' which proves J's involvement in any of these killings...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #340 on: May 03, 2016, 12:03:PM »
Cops found themselves in a dilemma...

Sheila was on the verge of surrendering, she had placed the rifle at the bedroom window in view of cops outside. She had gone downstairs to that part of the farmhouse where police intended to enter. She was unarmed. There was a struggle. She got shot. She was mistakenly presumed dead. Her death was reported as a suicide. In the same room, was the body of her dad. Cops went in search of the other three victims, and located them at 8.10am. By that stage everything appeared, 'tickityboo'. But then things suddenly went pearshaped. Sheila's body was no longer present downstairs in the kitchen...

It's quite 'obvious' what took place afterward...

In order for Sheila's body to wind up dead on the bedroom floor as depicted by PC Birds photographic images, a number of different things needed to happen. (1) Sheila was still alive or dead, after the first shot in the kitchen, (2) she either made her own way upstairs from the kitchen to the bedroom, or she was taken there. (3) she either walked, or was carried. (4) she either collected the rifle from the bedroom window so that she had it in her possession, or a cop brought it from the window and placed it on her body. (5) she either shot herself, once under the chin and killed herself, or the gun discharged a solitary shot whilst cops were manipulating the position of the rifle upon her body...
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 12:05:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #341 on: May 03, 2016, 12:14:PM »
Once all the shit had hit the fan, with Sheila 'now dead' on the bedroom floor (9.13am), what were cops to do?  They had the body of Sheila on the bedroom floor. She had been shot twice in the same region of her throat, by bullets fired from two different weapons. One of these weapons belonged to a cop, the other had been resting against the bedroom window and had been there ever since about 7.15am. How could cops explain how the gun from the bedroom window had found its way onto her body, and then shoot her?

An almost impossible situation to explain away. But some of the most sharpest minds in the Essex force at that time, were in attendance at the scene. Surely, they would know the best way to deal with such a bad situation?
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #342 on: May 03, 2016, 12:24:PM »
Once all the shit had hit the fan, with Sheila 'now dead' on the bedroom floor (9.13am), what were cops to do?  They had the body of Sheila on the bedroom floor. She had been shot twice in the same region of her throat, by bullets fired from two different weapons. One of these weapons belonged to a cop, the other had been resting against the bedroom window and had been there ever since about 7.15am. How could cops explain how the gun from the bedroom window had found its way onto her body, and then shoot her?

An almost impossible situation to explain away. But some of the most sharpest minds in the Essex force at that time, were in attendance at the scene. Surely, they would know the best way to deal with such a bad situation?

As cops gathered around Sheila's body, pondering the best way to proceed, soco arrived at the scene (9.20am) but were prevented from taking control of the crime scene until the cops inside the farmhouse had got their stories right. Now, how best to describe the infliction of the two wounds to the victims throat?

'Recoil', the same gun had fired both shots, one shot immediately, after the other. Both shots were in the same region of the victims neck, so 'recoil' might be a good enough explanation, but...

There was still the problem concerning the fact that two different guns, not the same gun, had been used to shoot the victim, once downstairs with one weapon, and a second time upstairs with the rifle from the window. How could cops get around that problem? They decided to cross that bridge when they came to it. In the meantime, cops decided to proceed on the footing that Sheila had ran amok shooting and killing the others, then taking her own life in the bedroom by shooting herself once under the chin...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #343 on: May 03, 2016, 12:26:PM »
Sheila had been shot 'only' once, that was the theme cops originally went with, not twice...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: What makes Bamber innocent?
« Reply #344 on: May 03, 2016, 12:30:PM »
Sheila had been shot 'only' once, that was the theme cops originally went with, not twice...

The police surgeon, Dr Craig, would state she had what appeared to be a solitary bullet wound to her neck at the time (8.44am) he formally pronounced her as being dead. Accompanying him at that time, was PI 'Bob' Miller, he too would report that Sheila only had a single bullet wound at the time her death was pronounced (8.44am)  by Dr Craig. They both could legitimately say this, because at that stage, there was only the one shot to her throat, not two...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...