The 3am telephone call. What was said ?

[mike tesko]

They must think we are behind the door when it comes to intelligence...

Thick BASTARDS, no wonder people like them have to resort to fabricating evidence...

[mike tesko]

Basically put, the fresh evidence which the previously deliberately withheld witness stament made by PC HOLTBY - SMITH, which states that the control room clock was inaccurate by 5 minutes, plus, or minus, means that although the control room clock gave the time of 03.36hrs, the correct time was 03.31hrs. Jeremys call to PC West commence at 03.31hrs, and West had to make a note of the things Jeremy started to tell him about from that point onwards. Therefore, PC West could not possibly relay anything Jeremy had not begun to tell him until 03.31hrs, to Malcolm Bonnet at 03.26hrs, because PC West had not yet recieved the call from Jeremy by that stage...

INACCURATE TIME Control room clock (03.36hrs)...

[mike tesko]

CORRECT TIME Control room clock  (03.31hrs)...

[mike tesko]

PC West could not possibly have relayed the information given to him by Jeremy Bamber at 03.31hrs, at the control room, to Malcolm Bonnet in the information room at 03.26hrs - impossible, not a cat in hells chance, West must have been in contact with Bonnet about some other matter...

[mike tesko]

In order for PC West to have relayed the information recived by him from Jeremy Bamber at 03.31hrs, to Malcolm Bonnet in the information room at 03.26hrs, it would amount to an evidential paradox, otherwise known as 'FABRICATED EVIDENCE'...

[mike tesko]

In the real world, of every day life, time moves forward, yet Essex police entrepeners, West and Bonnet, expect ordinary folk to believe that time moved backwards, from 03.31hrs, to 03.26hrs, so that PC West could tell Malcolm Bonnet about something Jeremy Bamber had not yet contacted him about, and would not do so until 5 minutes after PC West had already repeated to Bonnet...

[scipio_usmc]

Basically put, the fresh evidence which the previously deliberately withheld witness stament made by PC HOLTBY - SMITH, which states that the control room clock was inaccurate by 5 minutes, plus, or minus, means that although the control room clock gave the time of 03.36hrs, the correct time was 03.31hrs. Jeremys call to PC West commence at 03.31hrs, and West had to make a note of the things Jeremy started to tell him about from that point onwards. Therefore, PC West could not possibly relay anything Jeremy had not begun to tell him until 03.31hrs, to Malcolm Bonnet at 03.26hrs, because PC West had not yet recieved the call from Jeremy by that stage...

INACCURATE TIME Control room clock (03.36hrs)...

You are less accurate than a broken analog clock and they are only accurate 2 minutes a day.

The defense was well aware that some police said the control room clock was often inaccurate and thus West was asked on cross examination if the clock was often wrong.  He responded it was occasionally wrong but usually accurate.

The goal of the defense was to make sure the jury didn't think Jeremy waited until 3:36 to call police because the longer he took the worse it looked for him.  That was why they wanted the jury to know he called at minimum ten minutes earlier. The defense made sure they told the jury he wrote 3:26 as the time of Jeremy's call in one of his statements.

[Jane]

you were not a witness who testified in this particular matter, nor someone who could have possibly testified. You cannot alter the facts spoken about, or that were eventually relied upon. West and Bonnet were key witnesses, so was PC HOLTBY - SMITH, although the police and the prosecution deliberately withheld the contents of his statement, so that the defence were never in a favourable position to challenge what West and Bonnet were claiming at trial. HOLTBY - SMITH's testimony was not available to them at the time of the trial in 1986, but is available now.  This  new evidence if presented properly is capable of helping to establish that Ralph Bamber had indeed contacted the police, independently of Jeremy Bamber, himself, despite the prosecution arguing during the trial that Ralph Bamber would have contacted the police himself, it appears that was exactly what he had done, and did...

Very clever wording, that, you naughty, NAUGHTY boy!!!! "THIS NEW EVIDENCE IF PRESENTED PROPERLY IS CAPABLE OF HELPING TO ESTABLISH................................." here one could add ".................that Elvis still lives"  or  "..................the moon is made of cheese" or ".......................Scipio is the most popular poster on the forum"!!!!!!!   PROPERLY presented, one can convince people of anything.

[mike tesko]

You are less accurate than a broken analog clock tick, tock, tick, tock, went the police control room clock....and they are only accurate 2 minutes a day. How could you possibly know, that when PC West looked at the control room clock which read 03.36am, was not accurate at that time? I cannot accept that any body could misread a clock that reads 03.36hrs, for a time of 03.26hrs. It is much more likeky, that later on when Wests statement was being prepared, that the officer in charge of co-ordinating the evidence in the investigation, realized that by the time the matter came to court,  the defence stood a good chance of discovering that the reason why Jeremy's attempt to re-establish contact with his father back at the house was met with a 'constant engaged tone', was because within a minute of Ralphs call to Jeremy coming to an abrupt halt, was because Ralph had terminated the brief call to Jeremy andJeremy had tapped the reciever of his telephone clearing the original call made by Ralph to Jeremy, thus allowing Ralph to have made the 03.26hrs call to the police. It would appear to me that Malcolm Bonnet either, recieved the 03.26hrs call directly from Ralph Bamber at the scene at that time, or alternatively that another person (possibly PC West, but not necessarily him) relayed the message to Bonnet who in turn recorded what had been said or had been told to him at 03.26hrs. The co-ordinating officer, introduced the 03.26hrs timing into PC Wests statement with the deliberate intention of trying to conseal the fact that Ralph Bamber had made contact with the police about his daughter having gone crazy and got one of his guns. It was a very clever attempt to try and keep the lid on the fact that Ralph Bamber had indeed contacted the police himself. What still falls to be reconstructed, is whether or not Ralph spoke directly with Bonnet in the information room, or whether or not, the information recorded in the 03.26hrs log, was as a result of what Ralph Bamber had told someone else in a much earlier call made from the scene?  If Bonnets 03.26hrs log was relayed to him by another, it is probably true that Ralph could have contacted the police himself, prior to Ralph calling Jeremy to alert him to ongoing developments at the scene. (as per the contents of the 03.26hrs log...

The defense was well aware that some police said the control room clock was often inaccurate none that mentioned the control room clock was 10 minutes fast, none that mentioned it was fast or slow by a specific number of minutes, except HOLTBY- SMITH, whose statement was not disclosed...and thus West was asked on cross examination if the clock was often wrong. He responded it was occasionally wrong but usually accurate. I don't believe they were the exact words he used in his reply, I will check and get back to you on this point...

The goal of the defense was to make sure the jury didn't think Jeremy waited until 3:36 to call police because it was never Jeremy's case that he phoned the police at any specific time, only that he did made such a call. I questioned Jeremy on many occasions, and he had no idea at all about specific timings of events, it was more a case of the sequence of events which was in the forefront of his mind. Any timings he may later hàve relied upon seems to me to be purely guess work... the longer he took the worse it looked for him. the length of delay in Jeremy calling the police has little relevance when you rely upon the sequence of events, as opposed to timed events. As I have said earlier, Jeremy had no recollection of timed events, only the sequence with which events occurred... That was why they wanted the jury to know he called at minimum ten minutes earlier. I disagree, I believe the point Rivlin was trying to make was that West was not only at sixes and sevens with his time keeping, but the contents he recorded in his 03.36hrs, log, did not match the contents of the witness statement made in PC Wests name bearing the crucial time change to 03.26hrs. PC West could not explain why the contents of his statement (03.26hrs) did not match the contents of his log (03.36hrs) .. The defense made sure they told the jury he wrote 3:26 as the time of Jeremy's call in one of his statements. yes, but only for the reasons I have already alluded to...

[scipio_usmc]

How could you possibly know, that when PC West looked at the control room clock which read 03.36am, was not accurate at that time?

PC West did not know any of the following:

1) Whether his clock was in sync with the clock from the HQ IR Control room or not

2) Whether he wrote down the time immediately before Jeremy said anything, in the middle of the call at some point or after he completely hung up the phone

3) Whether he wrote down the time that the clock read or made a mistake and accidentally recorded 3:36 when he meant to write something else.

All he knows is that Jeremy called, he put Jeremy on hold and contacted Bonnett and they dispatched police then he got back on the phone with Jeremy and asked him to go there and at some stage during the call or after he wrote 3:36 as the time of the call.

He was made aware Bonnett recorded the time of West's call to him at 3:26 so he accepted that he must have made a mistake of some sort in recording Jeremy's call to him as coming later than this. 

You take nothing and try weaving a conspiracy around it and in the process look extremely dishonest or liek someone who is totally lacking in comprehension skills.

[mike tesko]

PC West did not know any of the following:

1) Whether his clock was in sync with the clock from the HQ IR Control room or notthe contents of his log (03.36hrs) did not match the contents of his witness statement where the time was altered to 03.26hrs. West was caught out in 'no mans land', he didn't know whether he was coming or going, he was caught between the devil and the deep blue sea, all because the police were trying hard to keep a lid on the fact that Ralph Bamber had contacted the police,  the details of which were recorded as per Malcolm Bonnets, 03.26hrs, log. What becomes obvious is that during the trial the two completely different versions of the log ( 03.36hrs, and 03.26hrs), were not both subject of the courts scrutiny, only the timings recorded by PC West (03.36hrs), and Malcolm Bonnet (03.26hrs), on the pretense that Bonnets log (03.26hrs) contained the same information that was written and contained in PC Wests log (03.36hrs), but we now know the contents of one log, contradicts the content of the other log, and vice versa. There is absolutely no evidence that the contents of the Bonnet log (03.26hrs) were brought to the attention of the court, or that any discussion took place trying to deal with both different versions purporting to be a reference to the same event. Infact, Wests statement contents, about what Jeremy told him over the phone, not only do  not match the contents of the PC West log (03.36hrs), but they don't match the contents of the Bonnet log (03.26hrs), so we have three separate versions of Jeremys purported call to police, and all three tell a completely different story...

2) Whether he wrote down the time immediately before Jeremy said anything, in the middle of the call at some point or after he completely hung up the phone Police are trained to record the time events occurred. That is all anybody needs to know, unless otherwise stated in his testimony during the trial. Since, this scenario that you are throwing into the circus ring was not alluded to by PC West, himself either in his log (03.36hrs), in his witness statement (03.26hrs), or when giving his testimony in chief for the prosecution during the trial (October 1986), or in cross examination by defence counsel at the same trial, it is not open to someone such as yourself to start meddling with the times mentioned at different sources by PC West. If snything, one thing everybody interested in this case will never put any faith in the old addage, "if you want to know the time, ask a policeman". What does one do now if for one reason or another, we have to ask a policeman the time, and he gives it to us, do we ask further questions about the accuracy of his timepiece? "Excuse me, officer, is your watch accurate, is it fast, or slow, and if so by how many minutes? Is your watch synchronised with the clock in the force control room, or the clock in the information room?

3) Whether he wrote down the time that the clock read or made a mistake and accidentally recorded 3:36 when he meant to write something else. PC West knew exactly what he was doing, he simply daren't say anything that might put himself in the shit, or which might jeopardise the prosecutions chances of securing a conviction. West lied through his teeth, he knows it, and I know it, and thats good enough for me...

All he knows is that Jeremy called, yes, just like Jeremy, but in the contemporaneously recorded phone log, in keeping with his training and experience, he glanced at the control room clock, which read, 03.36hrs, and he wrote the time at the beginning of the log, as one would expect him to have done. If the sequence had been any different, PC West would have said something about it, but since he didn't, I think its fair to say that he recorded the time he received Jeremys call in keeping with the control room clock reading 03.36hrs, which according to PC HOLTBY - SMITH, was inaccurate by 5 minutes, plus, or minus.The correct time, therefore had to have been 03.31hrs. Since, the information room clock was never suspected of being inaccurate at all, by anybody, the clocks in the control room and the information room, were only out of synchcronisation by 5 minutes, not 10. So, on that basis, PC Wests account about receiving the call from Jeremy at 03.36hrs (03.31hrs), could not have been recorded by Bonnet at 03.26hrs, because there exists a 5 minute period at all times, between the correct time shown by the control room clock, and the information room clock. You never never make up any story by trying to suggest that these two separate logs, were a record of the same call, which Jeremy had made to PC West, this is becaise when the information room clock showed the time 03.26hrs, the clock in the control room showed the time to be 03.31hrs (but the correct time was 03.26hrs). There would always be a 5 minute disparity between the time shown by the control room clock, as opposed to the information room clock. PC West could not have misread the control room clock which showed a time of 03.36hrs, but it was really 03.26hrs, because the control clock was only ever known to be inaccurate by 5 minutes, in keeping with the deliberately withheld PC HOLTBY - SMITH,  statemeht, confirming this... he put Jeremy on hold and contacted Bonnett and they dispatched police hang on a minute, in the court of appeal judgement (2002), the judges said it still remained something of a mystery, how the occupants of CA07 had been dispatched to the scene, before Jeremy had even called the police. So, there is no reason to suppose why police had not already been eespatched to the scene before PC West heard from Jeremy at all, responding to the earlier call from Ralph Bamber, or the activation of the attack alarm at 03.29am from the farmhouse. ?. then he got back on the phone with Jeremy and asked him to go there great...and at some stage during the call or after he wrote 3:36 as the time of the call. not only was he trained to recall the time he recieved the call (03.36hrs), but the layout and composition of the form PC West filled out, is also designed for the reciver if the call to make a note of the time the event was recieved...

He was made aware Bonnett recorded the time of West's call to him at 3:26 so he accepted that he must have made a mistake of some sort in recording Jeremy's call to him as coming later than this.  this can't be true for all the reasons I have thus far given...

You take nothing and try weaving a conspiracy around it and in the process look extremely dishonest or liek someone who is totally lacking in comprehension skills. all my answers, are honest, factual and plausable, I'll leave all the dishonesty to that set of scoundrels who helped to frame Jeremy Bamber for murders he could not have committed...

[mike tesko]

Very clever wording, that, you naughty, NAUGHTY boy!!!! "THIS NEW EVIDENCE IF PRESENTED PROPERLY IS CAPABLE OF HELPING TO ESTABLISH.. that the contents of the Bonnet log (03.26hrs) is a true record of Ralph Bambers call made to them from the scene either at or before 03.26hrs, and that Jeremys call to PC West was made at 03.31hrs, not 03.36hrs.................................." here one could add ".................that Elvis still lives"  or  "..................the moon is made of cheese" or ".......................Scipio is the most popular poster on the forum"!!!!!!!   PROPERLY presented, one can convince people of anything.

[Jane]

Hmm, that's as MAYbe, but thus far, we have no evidence, save what you have told us -and because it comes from another party we have no way of knowing if what they say is true- so we can't say, with any confidence, it's more than cleverly put together words

[mike tesko]

The contents of the Bonnet log (03.26hrs), do not correspond with the contents of the PC West log (03.36hrs), and neither of these two logs match or correspond with the contents of Wests statement about what was supposedly said by Jeremy to PC West in the same call. Lets put some undisputeable facts in place. Bonnet makes a record in his log (03.26hrs, purporting to be a message passed to him by PC West, who in turn claims to be repeating to Bonnet what Jeremy supposedly had told PC West prior to 02.26hrs. This is problematic because Bonnet records his log (03.26hrs), before PC West records his own log (03.36hrs). The matter is further complicated, by the known fact that the clock in the control room was inaccurate by 5 minutes (according to PC HOLTBY - SMITH. So, although the control room clock read 03.36hrs, the correct time being 03.31hrs. The control room clock being inaccurate by 5 minutes, plus. It couldn't realistically have been inaccurate by 5 minutes minus, because the correct time would have been 03.41hrs, with insufficient time for the actual duration of Jeremys call to PC West to unfold forward in time, and for Jeremy to get dressed, get himself out to his car, and away to the farmhouse, in time for him to arrive at the farmhouse by 03.52hrs...

If Bonnet received the detail for his 03.26hrs log, it could not have been given to him, after Jeremys call to West which commenced at 03.31hrs, because the Jeremy to West conversation did not occur until 5 minutes after Bonnet started to recieve the contents of the 03.26am log from PC West. This implies that West had knowledge of both calls, one call from Ralph Bamber, and the other from Jeremy Bamber. There was no need for two logs to be made for either the log of Ralph Bamber, or the log of Jeremy Bamber. There was in fact, one log made for the Ralph Bamber call in log 03.26hrs, and another log made for the Jeremy Bamber call in log 03.36hrs (03.31hrs). Evidence exists to prove that PC West contacted Bonnet after Jeremy called him, and there is some evidence that PC West may have also been in contact with Bonnet, after the earlier call made by Ralph Bamber...

[mike tesko]

Jeremy told police, that in the call from his father, his father had said, "Sheila had got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", or "She has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly", or "he has got the gun, he has gone crazy, come quickly"...

When Jeremy phoned the police, this is what he told the police (PC West) - "Sheila has got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly". Yet, a month later, during police interview, he brought it to the attention of interviewing officers, that his father could have said, "SHE HAS GOT THE GUN, SHE HAS GONE CRAZY, COME QUICKLY", because he said it sounded similar phonetically to, " Sheila's got the gun, she has gone crazy, come quickly". Years  later, during a discussion between us both, he agreed that, "he has got the gun, he has gone crazy, come quickly", also sounded phonetically similar to the other two versions aforementioned...

The funny thing is...

that the content of the Bonnet log (03.26hrs), nor the content of the PC West log (03.36hrs / 03.31hrs) replicate exactly, what Ralph told Jeremy, and what Jeremy repeated to the police. Why is this?