How many people think Sheila was the shooter

[Steve_uk]

OK, Lookout, let's suppose she HAD gone to the police and leave aside that their hands were tied until or unless a crime was committed. SUPPOSING they'd had a word with Jeremy? Suave, educated, charming, urbane, confident, superior Jeremy. The one who brazenly told prosecuting counsel, "That is for you to prove, isn't it." He'd have shown surprise, undoubtedly and followed it by telling them his soon to be ex girlfriend was as "nutty" as his sister. He'd have made Julie into a liar and a fool AND they'd have believed him because he just didn't look like a potential murderer. You can see the problems facing social workers, can't you.

She could have warned Colin though not to leave his sons alone with Jeremy at any time.

[Steve_uk]

She didn't tell anyone because she didn't think he was being serious. She thought he was just blowing off steam like many people do when they say they want to kill someone.

But he had said it to her on more than one occasion and these rantings became more serious in the New Year. I find Julie's ditherings incomprehensible and her actions throughout are still one of the most shocking aspects of this case.

[scipio_usmc]

But he had said it to her on more than one occasion and these rantings became more serious in the New Year. I find Julie's ditherings incomprehensible and her actions throughout are still one of the most shocking aspects of this case.

If a relative of yours periodically said they wanted to kill someone but hadn't actually done it despite saying it several times would you take that as a sign they would at some point do it and that you had better tell the authorities?

If a kid says they hate school and want to blow up you say yeah sure...If you catch them making bombs then you know there is a problem.

He told her things that she thought was just talk.  She didn't witness him taking some sort of preparations like making bombs that would establish he was carrying it out for real.

In high school I cooked improvised c4 (Ammonium nitrate, nitromethane and powdered aluminum) and set it off in aspirin bottles. It was just for fun we didn't actually do anything destructive with it.  I didn't tell my friends I was going to blow anyone or anything up with it beyond see how big a hole it would make in the dirt.  If I told them I wanted to use it on someone or something then they would have had cause to rat me out. Then again they joked about blowing something else up but I didn't let anyone else touch the bottles so I have no idea if they were serious or not- I assumed they were just joking.  I didn't want to be responsible for one of them blowing their ass off like something out of a jackass movie.  This was pre-911 when we could get away with such things. They worked pretty good Bill Murray could have used the in Caddyshack.  The powdered aluminum was supposed to add enough velocity to bend steel but we had no steel to try it on so I don't know what it would do to a structure.  Most people who say they are going to kill someone don't.  That makes it hard to predict if someone is serious unless you see them grabbing a weapon and leaving with it.

Even after the murders she still didn't think he was capable and that was why she bought his claim he hired a hitman. Because of her love for him she still might not have ratted him out if she found out he paid a hitman and thus knew the murder was coming later that evening.  It takes a brave/selfless person to actually intervene, particularly if they have no great love for the potential victims.  While there are people like that they are in the minority. A minority will stick out their neck by risking their body or relationships for the sake of others. Most people in such situations are like a deer in the headlights. A minority will take action and that is why the minority who do such are called heroes. It is heroic precisely because it is they are doing something the majority is not willing to do.

[Steve_uk]

If a relative of yours periodically said they wanted to kill someone but hadn't actually done it despite saying it several times would you take that as a sign they would at some point do it and that you had better tell the authorities?

If a kid says they hate school and want to blow up you say yeah sure...If you catch them making bombs then you know there is a problem.

He told her things that she thought was just talk.  She didn't witness him taking some sort of preparations like making bombs that would establish he was carrying it out for real.

In high school I cooked improvised c4 (Ammonium nitrate, nitromethane and powdered aluminum) and set it off in aspirin bottles. It was just for fun we didn't actually do anything destructive with it.  I didn't tell my friends I was going to blow anyone or anything up with it beyond see how big a hole it would make in the dirt.  If I told them I wanted to use it on someone or something then they would have had cause to rat me out. Then again they joked about blowing something else up but I didn't let anyone else touch the bottles so I have no idea if they were serious or not- I assumed they were just joking.  I didn't want to be responsible for one of them blowing their ass off like something out of a jackass movie.  This was pre-911 when we could get away with such things. They worked pretty good Bill Murray could have used the in Caddyshack.  The powdered aluminum was supposed to add enough velocity to bend steel but we had no steel to try it on so I don't know what it would do to a structure.  Most people who say they are going to kill someone don't.  That makes it hard to predict if someone is serious unless you see them grabbing a weapon and leaving with it.

Even after the murders she still didn't think he was capable and that was why she bought his claim he hired a hitman. Because of her love for him she still might not have ratted him out if she found out he paid a hitman and thus knew the murder was coming later that evening.  It takes a brave/selfless person to actually intervene, particularly if they have no great love for the potential victims.  While there are people like that they are in the minority. A minority will stick out their neck by risking their body or relationships for the sake of others. Most people in such situations are like a deer in the headlights. A minority will take action and that is why the minority who do such are called heroes. It is heroic precisely because it is they are doing something the majority is not willing to do.

Or maybe she believed Jeremy's excuse about not marrying her at the turn of the year because the idea arose from June(unsubstantiated) and he didn't want to acquiesce with her wishes. Once she was dead there was no excuse left but of course marriage as we know was not forthcoming. Your adolescent experiences are something akin to the film Breaking Bad.

[scipio_usmc]

Or maybe she believed Jeremy's excuse about not marrying her at the turn of the year because the idea arose from June(unsubstantiated) and he didn't want to acquiesce with her wishes. Once she was dead there was no excuse left but of course marriage as we know was not forthcoming. Your adolescent experiences are something akin to the film Breaking Bad.

Blowing holes in the dirt in the woods and the kinds of things done on Breaking Bad are quite different.  I also made my own smoke grenades. Nothing was done with such items to vandalize though or to cause any other problems. It was simply playing with an improvised weapons survivalist book to see if I could do it. The worst thing I did was make a trap with a tripwire which resulted in a branch from a tree whacking a jerk I hated. I didn't put spikes in it or anything like that. It wasn't a very thick branch so I knew it would not do any real damage. It did leave a red mark on his forehead though. We laughed all day in school. He never did figure out who set it and I only told a few people who I knew would not tell anyone.  Someone else previously egged him on to start a fight with me and he lost so I was not afraid to tell him I knew he could not do anything to me. He was really tall but a toothpick his punches had nothing on them at all. He was hitting me and I was laughing because his punches were so weak.  I let him punch me 5 times just hysterical.  He said I didn't know how to fight so I punched him in the eye/cheek giving him a bright shiner then he ran away. He lied to everyone in school saying he beat me up but they asked how come my face was fine and his wasn't.  Then people who saw it said what really happened. It was simply more amusing with him never finding out and having to wonder. He was so paranoid he stopped walking through the woods to school so we didn't have to deal with his crap anymore.

Since that is the worst thing I did you grossly overestimate me.  Now people I know- that is another thing they did a lot of bad stuff. I didn't smoke, do drugs or anything else I was the goody goody Jeremy hated. Then I turned 15, got a job, worked ever hour I could and the only bad things I did was there but I was provoked...like I was throwing away sour cream that was no good, we just had to save the lids to get some credit back. Someone would not leave me alone and just let me work. He tried to wipe some of the sour cream on me. I had one container in each hand and chased him. The bastard ran down a hall that had cameras. I lobbed them like grenades at him. Both hit him in the ass and blew up. His whole ass was full of sour cream. Some got on the floor too of course.  Then we got called to the office because naturally the manager was in the office at that exact moment watching the cameras.

Another time the same idiot shot me with a water pistol.  I got two cleaning bottles and was shooting him back- the spray bottles were awesome they shot a major spray like 30 feet they were the only supplies the store had that were actually good. I was killing him, his little gun wasn't worth crap. The floor was all wet and he was running around then he fell and it was like he was on a slip n slide.  He slid down the hall like a bowling ball right through the break room door crashing into the TV.  The store managers were having a meeting in there with the district manager. They were watching some work related VCR tape.  I should have run away but I couldn't.  I was laughing too hard- so I got busted too.

These antics got them mad but not enough to get us fired because on the flip side we actually worked.  Most people just slacked off and did nothing. They would let them get away with doing nothing and pile all the work on the few who actually worked. If they fired us nothing would get done so they had no choice but to put up with us and since they dumped everything on us we had the right to blow off steam now and then. It's a lot better to blow off steam with childish antics than keeping it all in and one day blowing up in a violent episode.

[Alias]

But he had said it to her on more than one occasion and these rantings became more serious in the New Year. I find Julie's ditherings incomprehensible and her actions throughout are still one of the most shocking aspects of this case.

You used to defend her - or do I remember it wrongly?

My logic always stuggles with Jeremy shooting Sheila twice, then staging it as suicide. Calling police and the whole drill.
Something doesn´t add up there.

[Jane]

You used to defend her - or do I remember it wrongly?

My logic always stuggles with Jeremy shooting Sheila twice, then staging it as suicide. Calling police and the whole drill.
Something doesn´t add up there.

Part of the reason some still "struggle" is because they're inside their own heads, using their own "logic" rather than imagining what it was to be JEREMY, in the position HE found himself in, and having to deal with the unplanned for.

[maggie]

Part of the reason some still "struggle" is because they're inside their own heads, using their own "logic" rather than imagining what it was to be JEREMY, in the position HE found himself in, and having to deal with the unplanned for.

I can quite see if he had planned the murders why people expect he would have thought things through and if he did you would expect him to see glaring difficulties ie. How to make Sheila's death look like suicide, in a carefully planned exercise you would expect him to maybe have to accept the two shot suicide as part of his plan.
It is Julie Mugford who tells us he planned the killings over a year and this tends to confuse because it sits uncomfortably with what we see happened and that the whole situation seemed to be far more a chaotic attack than anything planned.
It's true once in such a situation anything can happen as no one can plan for human reaction, unforeseen difficulties etc. I would find it easier to believe if JM had never claimed he had prepared by strangling rats etc. which gives an impression of serious planning and attention to detail. 
This is contradictory and confusing.

[Jane]

I can quite see if he had planned the murders why people expect he would have thought things through and if he did you would expect him to see glaring difficulties ie. How to make Sheila's death look like suicide, in a carefully planned exercise you would expect him to maybe have to accept the two shot suicide as part of his plan.
It is Julie Mugford who tells us he planned the killings over a year and this tends to confuse because it sits uncomfortably with what we see happened and that the whole situation seemed to be far more a chaotic attack than anything planned.
It's true once in such a situation anything can happen as no one can plan for human reaction, unforeseen difficulties etc. I would find it easier to believe if JM had never claimed he had prepared by strangling rats etc. which gives an impression of serious planning and attention to detail. 
This is contradictory and confusing.

Maggie, my point is, this isn't about "why people expect (he would have thought thing through)" OR "you would expect him to see....." all of which is about our own frame of reference. In order to see where Jeremy was coming from, it becomes necessary to totally divorce ourselves from where we would be with it. Julie didn't claim that............ JEREMY made a claim which Julie repeated.

[maggie]

Maggie, my point is, this isn't about "why people expect (he would have thought thing through)" OR "you would expect him to see....." all of which is about our own frame of reference. In order to see where Jeremy was coming from, it becomes necessary to totally divorce ourselves from where we would be with it. Julie didn't claim that............ JEREMY made a claim which Julie repeated.

Ok April, Julie claimed Jeremy told her but this still sets up contradictions in people's minds however otherwise as you say Jeremy did what he did and we have to accept this as apart from the hard facts all arguments are hypothetical and purists would therefore claim there is no argument which carried to it's extreme becomes a  dangerous process, n'est pas? 

Or have I lost the thread?

[John]

I do not believe that Sheila was the shooter, at least not alone.
I care not about her mental state, as I do not think she could have shot her children.
If Sheila was in a mental state then the shootings would have been more random, not methodical.

Very true, someone experiencing an episode whilst brandishing a rifle with which they are totally unfamiliar do not generally manage 22 carefully targeted shots killing four people and engage in a struggle for control of said rifle without incurring some blood spatter and/or injury.

Or as David Boutflour recently recorded for a TV dramatisation of the case, Sheila was found with barely a hair out of place!

[lookout]

I wouldn't have said the shots were " targeted ". How could anyone miss at a couple of feet away even a closer range than that a few times ? The shots were frenzied and the ones between the eyes would have been done either after death or certainly close to it to have delivered a shot like that.
I can't even visualise much of a struggle either as 2 or 3 shots into Neville would have left him vulnerable and open to a further bashing.

I wouldn't have had a " hair out of place " nor a fingernail if I'd been in control of a rifle shooting two adults.Why would there have to be ?

[lookout]

These murders weren't planned,they were spur of the moment done in an act of sheer madness.

[John]

These murders weren't planned,they were spur of the moment done in an act of sheer madness.

Bollocks.  Only some nutter like Jeremy Bamber would murder two innocent babes as they slept.  No wonder his real parents want nothing to do with him!

[lookout]

Bollocks.  Only some nutter like Jeremy Bamber would murder two innocent babes as they slept.  No wonder his real parents want nothing to do with him!

 I see. Losing it are we ?