Colin said he would have killed June

[nugnug]

It is intentionally blown out of proportion.  He explained what the boys didn't like.  They didn't like the food they were served while staying and didn't like being taught about religion, having to do chores...  They were probably allowed to do anything they want except when at WHF where they had to do as they were told and were made to do things they didn't like. 

People who harp on such do so in order to push an agenda it is not an accident. It is used to try to suggest June and Nevill were horrible people though it is quite ridiculous to suggest this establishes such.

if that was the case then colin was showing a surprising amount of concern about it.

i think it had to be a bit more than that.

[lookout]

It is intentionally blown out of proportion.  He explained what the boys didn't like.  They didn't like the food they were served while staying and didn't like being taught about religion, having to do chores...  They were probably allowed to do anything they want except when at WHF where they had to do as they were told and were made to do things they didn't like. 

People who harp on such do so in order to push an agenda it is not an accident. It is used to try to suggest June and Nevill were horrible people though it is quite ridiculous to suggest this establishes such.

To us it was blown out of all proportion but to June it was the end of the world. Because she too wasn't well and her reasoning on such small matters became an explosive situation. She too couldn't help it being prone to a depressive illness herself.

[Jane]

It is intentionally blown out of proportion.  He explained what the boys didn't like.  They didn't like the food they were served while staying and didn't like being taught about religion, having to do chores...  They were probably allowed to do anything they want except when at WHF where they had to do as they were told and were made to do things they didn't like. 

People who harp on such do so in order to push an agenda it is not an accident. It is used to try to suggest June and Nevill were horrible people though it is quite ridiculous to suggest this establishes such.

I'm sure they didn't, and encouraging them to do things they don't like WASN'T necessarily bad for them and may have helped them develop. HOWEVER, there are ways of doing this. Forcing them isn't one of them. Make things seem like fun. Engage with them. Sadly, June's way of handling her grandsons seems to have been, as it had been with Sheila, about control. She seems determined that they would do it her way. I see nothing wrong with bringing children up with Christian values but although I don't believe it was her place to do this without the parents' permission, she could have taught them religion without the word ever being mentioned. Surely much better to turn bible stories into adventure stories that she could have told them off by heart instead of reading them in language which isn't easy for children to comprehend. Might it not have been better simply to teach them how to be kind rather than have them on their knees, praying. Her way put them off, even frightened them.

 Even when I thought that Jeremy was innocent I didn't suggest that Neville and June were "horrible people" -certainly Neville was thought of as being great fun and excellent company. June was a worthy woman who I believe was kindness itself to those she didn't have any expectations of. Sadly, she had expectations of her family that they appeared unable to fulfil.

[scipio_usmc]

I'm sure they didn't, and encouraging them to do things they don't like WASN'T necessarily bad for them and may have helped them develop. HOWEVER, there are ways of doing this. Forcing them isn't one of them. Make things seem like fun. Engage with them. Sadly, June's way of handling her grandsons seems to have been, as it had been with Sheila, about control. She seems determined that they would do it her way. I see nothing wrong with bringing children up with Christian values but although I don't believe it was her place to do this without the parents' permission, she could have taught them religion without the word ever being mentioned. Surely much better to turn bible stories into adventure stories that she could have told them off by heart instead of reading them in language which isn't easy for children to comprehend. Might it not have been better simply to teach them how to be kind rather than have them on their knees, praying. Her way put them off, even frightened them.

 Even when I thought that Jeremy was innocent I didn't suggest that Neville and June were "horrible people" -certainly Neville was thought of as being great fun and excellent company. June was a worthy woman who I believe was kindness itself to those she didn't have any expectations of. Sadly, she had expectations of her family that they appeared unable to fulfil.

They obviously had Sheila's permission to force them to eat food they didn't want to eat and learn about religion- she was there at the time and permitted such to occur. If children are not forced they will not do things forcing children is often in their best interest.

[Jane]

They obviously had Sheila's permission to force them to eat food they didn't want to eat and learn about religion- she was there at the time and permitted such to occur. If children are not forced they will not do things forcing children is often in their best interest.

Strictly speaking, she wasn't "there" she was all over the place, taking no interest in the children what so ever and no interest in helping June -as she relayed to Pam- so it's doubtful she'd have taken much interest in what June was doing with the children. I don't go with forcing children to do anything. Persuading,coercing, manipulating, bribing -if necessary. If they think it was their idea they'll do it much more willingly.

[maggie]

Strictly speaking, she wasn't "there" she was all over the place, taking no interest in the children what so ever and no interest in helping June -as she relayed to Pam- so it's doubtful she'd have taken much interest in what June was doing with the children. I don't go with forcing children to do anything. Persuading,coercing, manipulating, bribing -if necessary. If they think it was their idea they'll do it much more willingly.

Agreed Jane, I still wonder why she took them to the farm if the children were so unhappy there.  I would guess they were apprehensive because June was quite strict but once there it was quite fun, it's typical of kids to behave like that and then they're as happy as anything when they've worried you to death.
I agree forcing children to do things is wrong in my book, could never force mine to do anything they didn't want to do, I suppose a good beating may have made them do it but I would have had to catch them first 

[Jane]

Agreed Jane, I still wonder why she took them to the farm if the children were so unhappy there.  I would guess they were apprehensive because June was quite strict but once there it was quite fun, it's typical of kids to behave like that and then they're as happy as anything when they've worried you to death.
I agree forcing children to do things is wrong in my book, could never force mine to do anything they didn't want to do, I suppose a good beating may have made them do it but I would have had to catch them first 

I think it was the equivalent of a Royal Command visit, Maggie. Colin was taking them to his sister's in Norway and the grandparents wanted to see them before they went -I've often wondered if the money in Neville's wallet was holiday money for the twins. I think they probably DID over egg the pudding on the chance that if they made enough fuss Colin wouldn't make them stay -you have to hand it to them for trying- on the other hand if June was seen to be a firm disciplinarian, I imagine Colin was anything but and was all about free expression, as for Sheila..................To be honest, I don't think opposite ends of the spectrum are good for children and it becomes worse when it's in a tug of love situation. A good beating? Hmm. I wonder if it will ever catch on

[maggie]

I think it was the equivalent of a Royal Command visit, Maggie. Colin was taking them to his sister's in Norway and the grandparents wanted to see them before they went -I've often wondered if the money in Neville's wallet was holiday money for the twins. I think they probably DID over egg the pudding on the chance that if they made enough fuss Colin wouldn't make them stay -you have to hand it to them for trying- on the other hand if June was seen to be a firm disciplinarian, I imagine Colin was anything but and was all about free expression, as for Sheila..................To be honest, I don't think opposite ends of the spectrum are good for children and it becomes worse when it's in a tug of love situation. A good beating? Hmm. I wonder if it will ever catch on

  I am sure it was difficult but don't believe it was as bad as we have been led to believe.
I must say when I managed to catch them beating didn't do much good they're still as naughty as ever 

[scipio_usmc]

Strictly speaking, she wasn't "there" she was all over the place, taking no interest in the children what so ever and no interest in helping June -as she relayed to Pam- so it's doubtful she'd have taken much interest in what June was doing with the children. I don't go with forcing children to do anything. Persuading,coercing, manipulating, bribing -if necessary. If they think it was their idea they'll do it much more willingly.

You say she took no interest in them.  You say such from a position of ignorance.  You constantly assume you know all about her and the victims though you clearly don't.  You say I assume I know everything but it is you who do so and look very foolish in the process.

[nugnug]

your saying it from ignorance as well we all are.

[Jane]

Strictly speaking, she wasn't "there" she was all over the place, taking no interest in the children what so ever and no interest in helping June -as she relayed to Pam- so it's doubtful she'd have taken much interest in what June was doing with the children. I don't go with forcing children to do anything. Persuading,coercing, manipulating, bribing -if necessary. If they think it was their idea they'll do it much more willingly.

You say she took no interest in them.  You say such from a position of ignorance.  You constantly assume you know all about her and the victims though you clearly don't.  You say I assume I know everything but it is you who do so and look very foolish in the process.

OK, unless you're about to twist what I've said, which part of the above are you assuming that I'm assuming? I didn't pull any of it from the ether. June told Pam "she has no interest in anything including the twins." Others spoke of her lethargy. Her zombie-like movements, however I HAVE allowed for the occasion when she was seen skipping with the children in a post where I've said I believe she was depressed AND outlined my reasons for it.So now tell me where, from your lofty superiority come your beliefs of my ignorance?

[scipio_usmc]

OK, unless you're about to twist what I've said, which part of the above are you assuming that I'm assuming? I didn't pull any of it from the ether. June told Pam "she has no interest in anything including the twins." Others spoke of her lethargy. Her zombie-like movements, however I HAVE allowed for the occasion when she was seen skipping with the children in a post where I've said I believe she was depressed AND outlined my reasons for it.So now tell me where, from your lofty superiority come your beliefs of my ignorance?

Jeremy said she brought the kids to play on the tractor as he was trying to work.  That alone says she was with them at least part of the visit and taking an interest in what they were doing.  She is the one who stuck her son's dirty pant to soak.  These are actual things we know she did we don't know what else she may have been doing with them because all those who would know are dead except for Jeremy would was not with her and the boys that much. You choose to ignore such and take generalizations and say these generalizations mean you know all.  Your ignorance of the facts is obviously - no one who didn't know them is in any position to judge their relations and by ignoring such and pretending you know so much you demonstrate you refuse to face you have no frame of reference.

 

[maggie]

Jeremy said she brought the kids to play on the tractor as he was trying to work.  That alone says she was with them at least part of the visit and taking an interest in what they were doing.  She is the one who stuck her son's dirty pant to soak.  These are actual things we know she did we don't know what else she may have been doing with them because all those who would know are dead except for Jeremy would was not with her and the boys that much. You choose to ignore such and take generalizations and say these generalizations mean you know all.  Your ignorance of the facts is obviously - no one who didn't know them is in any position to judge their relations and by ignoring such and pretending you know so much you demonstrate you refuse to face you have no frame of reference.

I have to disagree scipio, Pamela stated that June told her on the telephone how worried she was about Sheila's lack of interest in anything including the boys just as Jane stated in her post.  It is in fact one of the very few things we definitely know about the night of the murders.

[Jane]

Jeremy said she brought the kids to play on the tractor as he was trying to work.  That alone says she was with them at least part of the visit and taking an interest in what they were doing.  She is the one who stuck her son's dirty pant to soak.  These are actual things we know she did we don't know what else she may have been doing with them because all those who would know are dead except for Jeremy would was not with her and the boys that much. You choose to ignore such and take generalizations and say these generalizations mean you know all.  Your ignorance of the facts is obviously - no one who didn't know them is in any position to judge their relations and by ignoring such and pretending you know so much you demonstrate you refuse to face you have no frame of reference.

WOW! GEE!! Holy f'ing smoke. Make a point, why don't you!!! I've already said that ONLY 95% of what has been said of her, by those who knew her, during her last couple of weeks suggests depression. I've allowed for a couple of times when her spirits seemed to lift, the occasion you mention being one of them. I'm finding it laughable in the extreme that the only thing you can pick out to point to my ignorance is something I've already mentioned, and isn't it rather strange that it is the ONLY thing, other than soaking their dirty clothes that you can find that she did for/with them in three days. Signs of true devotion, don't you think, that may have worn her out to the point that she couldn't do anything else with them...........................d'ya think that may have been the reason why June told Pam "She has no interest in anything including the twins"?

[Jane]

I have to disagree scipio, Pamela stated that June told her on the telephone how worried she was about Sheila's lack of interest in anything including the boys just as Jane stated in her post.  It is in fact one of the very few things we definitely know about the night of the murders.

Maggie, his next post, which he'll probably put his own spin on and insist he's right, will probably tell us that June didn't mean what we think she meant.