Colin said he would have killed June

[maggie]

Maggie, his next post, which he'll probably put his own spin on and insist he's right, will probably tell us that June didn't mean what we think she meant.

[scipio_usmc]

I have to disagree scipio, Pamela stated that June told her on the telephone how worried she was about Sheila's lack of interest in anything including the boys just as Jane stated in her post.  It is in fact one of the very few things we definitely know about the night of the murders.

What someone sees as a lack of interest is in the eye of the beholder. There is a reason why courts don't want witnesses to give subjective opinions but only want witnesses who cant detail events they observed and conversations they had so the trier of fact can draw their own conclusions.

I gave 2 examples of things we know happened- one was her taking an interest in washing their clothing and another is she actually went with them to visit Jeremy which he complained about because he said they were bothering him.  It is clear at least some of the time she payed attention to them while they were visiting.

It is obvious the Haldol affected her as she had speech problems and sometimes would just sit around vacantly but she wasn't like that 24/7.  It was concerning but different than if she were like that always which would have resulted in her doctors being consulted.

It seems June and Nevill wanted Sheila to entertain the boys most of the time and just to have a little bit of time with them which makes me wonder why they even wanted them to stay over. 

[maggie]

What someone sees as a lack of interest is in the eye of the beholder. There is a reason why courts don't want witnesses to give subjective opinions but only want witnesses who cant detail events they observed and conversations they had so the trier of fact can draw their own conclusions.

I gave 2 examples of things we know happened- one was her taking an interest in washing their clothing and another is she actually went with them to visit Jeremy which he complained about because he said they were bothering him.  It is clear at least some of the time she payed attention to them while they were visiting.

It is obvious the Haldol affected her as she had speech problems and sometimes would just sit around vacantly but she wasn't like that 24/7.  It was concerning but different than if she were like that always which would have resulted in her doctors being consulted.

It seems June and Nevill wanted Sheila to entertain the boys most of the time and just to have a little bit of time with them which makes me wonder why they even wanted them to stay over.

June was her mother, I am sure she knew what she was speaking about ti Pamela and I am sure Pamela understood what she was saying.

[Jane]

What someone sees as a lack of interest is in the eye of the beholder. There is a reason why courts don't want witnesses to give subjective opinions but only want witnesses who cant detail events they observed and conversations they had so the trier of fact can draw their own conclusions.

I gave 2 examples of things we know happened- one was her taking an interest in washing their clothing and another is she actually went with them to visit Jeremy which he complained about because he said they were bothering him.  It is clear at least some of the time she payed attention to them while they were visiting.

It is obvious the Haldol affected her as she had speech problems and sometimes would just sit around vacantly but she wasn't like that 24/7.  It was concerning but different than if she were like that always which would have resulted in her doctors being consulted.

It seems June and Nevill wanted Sheila to entertain the boys most of the time and just to have a little bit of time with them which makes me wonder why they even wanted them to stay over.

Yes, I allowed for 5% but it seems that what I quote June as having said to her sister-and subsequently provided by Pam, regarding Sheila's behaviour is to be undermined and superseded by YOUR quoting what Jeremy said. How silly of me for not knowing that you would have to place yourself in a position of pre-eminence.

As I've already said -but you probably haven't bothered to read- Colin was taking the boys to his sister in Norway for a holiday. June and Neville wanted to see then before they went. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think they wanted to give them some spending money.

[Jan]

Jeremy said she brought the kids to play on the tractor as he was trying to work.  That alone says she was with them at least part of the visit and taking an interest in what they were doing.  She is the one who stuck her son's dirty pant to soak.  These are actual things we know she did we don't know what else she may have been doing with them because all those who would know are dead except for Jeremy would was not with her and the boys that much. You choose to ignore such and take generalizations and say these generalizations mean you know all.  Your ignorance of the facts is obviously - no one who didn't know them is in any position to judge their relations and by ignoring such and pretending you know so much you demonstrate you refuse to face you have no frame of reference.

How do you know she put the trousers in to soak - how do you know it was not june?

[Jane]

How do you know she put the trousers in to soak - how do you know it was not june?

I had noted that comment, Jan, but I couldn't be certain that the housekeeper hadn't said it. I was too idle to check it out

[maggie]

I had noted that comment, Jan, but I couldn't be certain that the housekeeper hadn't said it. I was too idle to check it out

I did wonder, I had no memory of ever reading who put the clothes in to soak.

[scipio_usmc]

How do you know she put the trousers in to soak - how do you know it was not june?

Because of the statement June would not soak clothing in the the kitchen but Sheila was in the habit of doing such and since she soaked her panties in the other bucket then logically she put the trousers in the other.  It appears other people picked up on such already though.

[Jane]

I did wonder, I had no memory of ever reading who put the clothes in to soak.

How do you know she put the trousers in to soak - how do you know it was not june?

Heheheheeeee YES!!!¬ I'm being a big kid and I don't care. Girls, I think you might like this. I can't find ANYTHING which says SHEILA soaked the boys' clothes............................BUT!!!!! Wait for it!!!!..................... "It had been JUNE'S habit to soak exceptionally dirty clothes before washing them" She's not talking about knickers stained by a menstrual mishap, She's talking about little boys' dirty trousers. NOT my words! NOT I making assumptions! NOT my ignorance! Yah Boo SUCKS, Scipio.

[Steve_uk]

I'm sure they didn't, and encouraging them to do things they don't like WASN'T necessarily bad for them and may have helped them develop. HOWEVER, there are ways of doing this. Forcing them isn't one of them. Make things seem like fun. Engage with them. Sadly, June's way of handling her grandsons seems to have been, as it had been with Sheila, about control. She seems determined that they would do it her way. I see nothing wrong with bringing children up with Christian values but although I don't believe it was her place to do this without the parents' permission, she could have taught them religion without the word ever being mentioned. Surely much better to turn bible stories into adventure stories that she could have told them off by heart instead of reading them in language which isn't easy for children to comprehend. Might it not have been better simply to teach them how to be kind rather than have them on their knees, praying. Her way put them off, even frightened them.

 Even when I thought that Jeremy was innocent I didn't suggest that Neville and June were "horrible people" -certainly Neville was thought of as being great fun and excellent company. June was a worthy woman who I believe was kindness itself to those she didn't have any expectations of. Sadly, she had expectations of her family that they appeared unable to fulfil.

I wonder to what extent the ECT had altered her perception of reality so much that she was unaware of how others interpreted her(one is reminded of Daniel's drawings)and clung onto the constants in her life of her husband,money and religion. Colin saw that the more Sheila stayed in her mother's company the more she deteriorated and again one thinks of the phenomenon of folie à deux,where one's delusions are foisted upon those nearest to one and something Colin was determined would not spread to his sons.

[Jane]

I wonder to what extent the ECT had altered her perception of reality so much that she was unaware of how others interpreted her(one is reminded of Daniel's drawings)and clung onto the constants in her life of her husband,money and religion. Colin saw that the more Sheila stayed in her mother's company the more she deteriorated and again one thinks of the phenomenon of folie à deux,where one's delusions are foisted upon those nearest to and something Colin was determined would not spread to his sons.

Steve, my mother's sister was treated with ECT for depression. I have no memory of how she was prior to it but I knew -sensed- that she wasn't "right" afterwards. She was frequently "somewhere else" or acting oddly. Conversely, I had a friend who maintained that her brother was TOTALLY cured after receiving it -mind you, when she took her son to see a psychiatrist because she believed he was anxious it was she who was prescribed medication for anxiety!!!- I guess you pays your money and takes your choice. I definitely feel that being in each other's company may have had a negative effect on both.

PS. How come you can produce grave/acute accents?

[Steve_uk]

Steve, my mother's sister was treated with ECT for depression. I have no memory of how she was prior to it but I knew -sensed- that she wasn't "right" afterwards. She was frequently "somewhere else" or acting oddly. Conversely, I had a friend who maintained that her brother was TOTALLY cured after receiving it -mind you, when she took her son to see a psychiatrist because she believed he was anxious it was she who was prescribed medication for anxiety!!!- I guess you pays your money and takes your choice. I definitely feel that being in each other's company may have had a negative effect on both.

PS. How come you can produce grave/acute accents?

Well I've taught Modern Languages for years and I know that there are two systems Word and Mac I think(someone will correct me) but there's a code whereby you use the Alt key and then type numbers which you can look up online and which are written in my diary.

[Steve_uk]

For this system here these are the numbers you need. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061029134307AATm10H

[Steve_uk]

There's another system for the French "a" whereby you use Alt+0225 but if you do that here the page just disappears with the whole of your thread. Some member here more competent than myself will be able to give the reason why.

[Jan]

Heheheheeeee YES!!!¬ I'm being a big kid and I don't care. Girls, I think you might like this. I can't find ANYTHING which says SHEILA soaked the boys' clothes............................BUT!!!!! Wait for it!!!!..................... "It had been JUNE'S habit to soak exceptionally dirty clothes before washing them" She's not talking about knickers stained by a menstrual mishap, She's talking about little boys' dirty trousers. NOT my words! NOT I making assumptions! NOT my ignorance! Yah Boo SUCKS, Scipio.

Yes I thought that assumption was strange from someone who says he sticks to facts.