Author Topic: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?  (Read 14698 times)

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Offline Caroline

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #120 on: August 10, 2015, 10:49:AM »
Sorry to intrude but am sure that 'outer edge' of the hand is called the 'side' of the hand? The palm is the flat of the hand :-\ ??

Have never heard the expression 'outer palm' before and I've been around a bit  :)

Neither have I but as a doctor, you would imagine that accuracy and not ambiguity would be paramount. Have you ever heard anyone (never mind a doctor) mistake a palm for a wrist or vice versa?  ::)         
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Offline lookout

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #121 on: August 10, 2015, 11:02:AM »
 I imagine that if you went to see that doctor because of a boil on your arris,he'd tell you to keep an eye on it. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline lookout

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #122 on: August 10, 2015, 11:21:AM »
Was that muck or a bruise in the area of Sheila's thumb and forefinger of her right hand ? Which also shows the 6 striated lines of blood on her arm. Sheila would momentarily have stood up after the first injury which resulted in the darker blobs of blood dripping to form the " stripes " which ran across that arm.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #123 on: August 10, 2015, 12:13:PM »
I imagine that if you went to see that doctor because of a boil on your arris,he'd tell you to keep an eye on it. ;D ;D ;D ;D

There is just blood Lookout.
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Offline lookout

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #124 on: August 10, 2015, 12:21:PM »
Wow,you wouldn't believe that two self-same pics would differ so much. It doesn't even show RM seeing as she'd been dead for hours. In fact,considering it's a hand of a dead person,it's a better colour than mine at this moment. Quite pink and normal !

Offline lookout

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #125 on: August 10, 2015, 12:22:PM »
Now find the same pic in a different format and see the VAST difference.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #126 on: August 10, 2015, 12:24:PM »
Wow,you wouldn't believe that two self-same pics would differ so much. It doesn't even show RM seeing as she'd been dead for hours. In fact,considering it's a hand of a dead person,it's a better colour than mine at this moment. Quite pink and normal !

Ha, ha!! Nice try Lookout!  ::)
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Offline lookout

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #127 on: August 10, 2015, 12:34:PM »
Ha, ha!! Nice try Lookout!  ::)






I'm sorry,but there's a thread which gives a different pic" mark from trigger guard found on Sheila Caffell's right hand " .Now you study them both.They don't even look like the same hands.

Offline Jan

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #128 on: August 10, 2015, 12:37:PM »
There is just blood Lookout.

So underneath are what you think are prints from her fingers?

On her night dress?

Offline lookout

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #129 on: August 10, 2015, 12:38:PM »
In the other pick,her thumb touches her forefinger,in the " enhanced " one--------it doesn't,so two different shots.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #130 on: August 10, 2015, 01:11:PM »
So underneath are what you think are prints from her fingers?

On her night dress?

Looks like fingers to me,
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Offline lookout

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #131 on: August 10, 2015, 01:33:PM »
Looks like fingers to me,






No.Surely not. ;)

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #132 on: August 10, 2015, 04:03:PM »
We won't ever agree on this because it's not your clarification that's required - it's Venezis's.

You are the one who has to try to get him to CHANGE his claims and clarify he was wrong in his report in writing the inside of her hands were free of blood.  You are the one trying to say he wrote 2 contradictory things in his written report but failed to realize i.

Your theory is little better than Mike deciding to interpret Davidson's COLP statement as saying he labeled the moderator SJ/1 though the import of his words make it obvious he was saying he wrote SBJ/1 on the label and HOLAB documents.

You are the one who wants to change things so you bear the burden of proving the changes are warranted.  Anyone who possesses reasonable intelligence and logic understands that Vanezis was drawing a distinction between the blood that ringed the sides and outside of the hand from the inside by noting they were free of blood and that the wrist transferred the blood to her gown.  You don't want to understand his words because they refute your claims.

For the same reason you totally ignore the statements of all the other witnesses who saw the inside of her hands who say they were clean of blood; all those who saw the photo of the insides of her hands showing her hands to be clean of blood; the evidence that blood was underneath the top of the Bible and thus a portion of the top of the left and right hand pages were sitting in that blood and both happened to have blood exactly where the pages were touching the ground that was covered in such blood; the experts who fingerprinted the Bible decided it was not a palm print they decided the only prints on the Bible were not in the blood and they saw it up close and it was their job to do it; and finally you the practical reasons why the whole suggestion is not credible:

It is not credible that Sheila was holding the Bible as she was shot, then moved her wrist to her wound, then closed the bible, then moved the inside of her hand to her wound getting the entire inside of her hand covered in blood, reopened it to the same exact page to read it again as Jeremy was busy jamming the rifle into her chin to match up his second shot so this time it would go into her brain.

Such is no more credible than Reader's wild tales about the phone call. Sheila didn't get shot, covered in blood then reopen the Bible and grab the top of the right hand side with her hand to stop from dropping it (you would not grab the top to try to read it you hold the side or bottom).

Nothing at all is in your favor.  You have to go against a great deal of evidence but have nothing at all to do it with beyond speculation upon speculation.

If Vanezis told COLP that the insides of her hands did have blood then the defense and Jeremy supporters would have shouted it from the rooftops.  He said nothing useful for their propaganda thus nothing he said to COLP has been released.   Mike said he would produce notes taken from Vanezis' COLP interview but all he ended up posting was the handwritten draft of Vanezis' 1986 report for into the mistakes and his recommendations for the future.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #133 on: August 10, 2015, 04:13:PM »
You are the one who has to try to get him to CHANGE his claims and clarify he was wrong in his report in writing the inside of her hands were free of blood.  You are the one trying to say he wrote 2 contradictory things in his written report but failed to realize i.

Your theory is little better than Mike deciding to interpret Davidson's COLP statement as saying he labeled the moderator SJ/1 though the import of his words make it obvious he was saying he wrote SBJ/1 on the label and HOLAB documents.

You are the one who wants to change things so you bear the burden of proving the changes are warranted.  Anyone who possesses reasonable intelligence and logic understands that Vanezis was drawing a distinction between the blood that ringed the sides and outside of the hand from the inside by noting they were free of blood and that the wrist transferred the blood to her gown.  You don't want to understand his words because they refute your claims.

For the same reason you totally ignore the statements of all the other witnesses who saw the inside of her hands who say they were clean of blood; all those who saw the photo of the insides of her hands showing her hands to be clean of blood; the evidence that blood was underneath the top of the Bible and thus a portion of the top of the left and right hand pages were sitting in that blood and both happened to have blood exactly where the pages were touching the ground that was covered in such blood; the experts who fingerprinted the Bible decided it was not a palm print they decided the only prints on the Bible were not in the blood and they saw it up close and it was their job to do it; and finally you the practical reasons why the whole suggestion is not credible:

It is not credible that Sheila was holding the Bible as she was shot, then moved her wrist to her wound, then closed the bible, then moved the inside of her hand to her wound getting the entire inside of her hand covered in blood, reopened it to the same exact page to read it again as Jeremy was busy jamming the rifle into her chin to match up his second shot so this time it would go into her brain.

Such is no more credible than Reader's wild tales about the phone call. Sheila didn't get shot, covered in blood then reopen the Bible and grab the top of the right hand side with her hand to stop from dropping it (you would not grab the top to try to read it you hold the side or bottom).

Nothing at all is in your favor.  You have to go against a great deal of evidence but have nothing at all to do it with beyond speculation upon speculation.

If Vanezis told COLP that the insides of her hands did have blood then the defense and Jeremy supporters would have shouted it from the rooftops.  He said nothing useful for their propaganda thus nothing he said to COLP has been released.   Mike said he would produce notes taken from Vanezis' COLP interview but all he ended up posting was the handwritten draft of Vanezis' 1986 report for into the mistakes and his recommendations for the future.

Not everyone has seen his written notes! YOU HADN'T until a few days go. I don't HAVE to do anything - but I also don't have to pretend that there is an official reference to 'inner and outer' palm. A palm, is a palm is a palm. Venezis is a doctor and KNOWS the importance of using the CORRECT terminology and WRIST does NOT equate to PALM in anyway, shape or form.

Why are you likening me to other posters?  ;D ;D ;D ;D. I don't get wound up or bothered by you so these little digs are like water off a ducks back - OH! And that's 'BACK' - please don't get it confused with any other part of the ducks anatomy  ;D ;D ;D ;D

We are NOT going to agree - simple!
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #134 on: August 10, 2015, 05:10:PM »
Not everyone has seen his written notes! YOU HADN'T until a few days go. I don't HAVE to do anything - but I also don't have to pretend that there is an official reference to 'inner and outer' palm. A palm, is a palm is a palm. Venezis is a doctor and KNOWS the importance of using the CORRECT terminology and WRIST does NOT equate to PALM in anyway, shape or form.

Why are you likening me to other posters?  ;D ;D ;D ;D. I don't get wound up or bothered by you so these little digs are like water off a ducks back - OH! And that's 'BACK' - please don't get it confused with any other part of the ducks anatomy  ;D ;D ;D ;D

We are NOT going to agree - simple!

His handwritten notes do not state what you claim. All he said was her right hand caused the stain he didn't specify which portion of her hand.  He said the same thing in his autopsy report except that he specified which portion of the hand did it and also specified no blood was on the inside of her hand. 

If that were all we had to go on it would be ambiguous where the blood was but it is not all we have to go on.  We have an autopsy report where he offered clarification.  That clarification is that blood was around the outside edge of the hands and the inside of her hands were free of blood.

You want to ignore this and pretend that we need to question him further to see whether he wrote by accident that the inside of her hands were free of blood.  Go ahead and try to find out what he elaborated to COLP on the issue or try writing to him no doubt if he bothers to answer he would simply confirm he meant the inside of her hands were free of blood and outside edges had blood as photos prove, and as other witnessed state.

You haven't even tried addressing the issue of why Jeremy would want her to have the bible in her hands as he shot her (which would hurt his narrative because she was supposed to have a gun in her hands) or why Sheila would close the Bible after being shot then reopen it to the same exact page as Jeremy was readying to deliver the fatal shot and after reopening it would put her hand across the top. Your theory is not well thought out.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry