Author Topic: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?  (Read 14696 times)

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guest2181

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #105 on: August 09, 2015, 09:36:PM »
Caroline, we differ in opinion on this particular topic, as we have many times before. It is clearly not that big a deal either way, so I think it's just best to agree to disagree.

At least until it comes up again and we repeat ourselves.   :-X

Offline Caroline

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #106 on: August 09, 2015, 09:39:PM »
Caroline, we differ in opinion on this particular topic, as we have many times before. It is clearly not that big a deal either way, so I think it's just best to agree to disagree.

At least until it comes up again and we repeat ourselves.   :-X

Yes we do H - don't mind the odd spat with you. You're always a gent  ;) :).
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #107 on: August 09, 2015, 09:54:PM »

If I can put my two pen'th in here, is it possible that as she was sitting there, scared, he tossed a bible at her and told her to read it, shot her the first time, she put her hand -PALM- against the wound then instinctively grabbed for the bible -perhaps it had slipped. Voila! Instant PALM print.

Why would he do that?  If she is reading a Bible as she is being shot then she can't be shooting herself. At best one would want it to look like she was reading the Bible before she shot herself not during or after. He got a little bit of blood on the Bible- towards the bottom. He closed it then reopened it creating a mirror image.  No mirror image was created at op because the blood at the top wasn't there yet.  That blood got there later after it already had been closed and reopened to the same exact page.

 

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Jane

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #108 on: August 09, 2015, 10:04:PM »
Why would he do that?  If she is reading a Bible as she is being shot then she can't be shooting herself. At best one would want it to look like she was reading the Bible before she shot herself not during or after. He got a little bit of blood on the Bible- towards the bottom. He closed it then reopened it creating a mirror image.  No mirror image was created at op because the blood at the top wasn't there yet.  That blood got there later after it already had been closed and reopened to the same exact page.


Why would he NOT? You're just saying what you would-or not-have done. And can you point me to WHERE I suggested she shot herself. It's my understanding that Jeremy shot her. May I suggest you get yourself a cup of tea or a shot of bourbon. You sound as if you may have got a little confused after disagreeing with Caroline.

guest2181

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #109 on: August 09, 2015, 10:08:PM »
Yes we do H - don't mind the odd spat with you. You're always a gent  ;) :).

As are you, well, not a gent, but know what I mean.  :)

Offline Caroline

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #110 on: August 09, 2015, 10:16:PM »
As are you, well, not a gent, but know what I mean.  :)

 :o ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #111 on: August 09, 2015, 10:46:PM »
"He referred to the blood on the outside of her hand as being on her wrist and said that is how the blood transferred to her gown.  He said her fingers and inside of her hands were free of blood.  That is if one actually wants to understand what he wrote as opposed to deciding to incorrectly interpret it for their own purposes."

NOT in his notes - he said P-A-L-M!


"There is an inside palm and outside palm. The outside palm is adjacent to the outer wrist and often simply included with the wrist depending if speaking about both."

Bollocks!   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
 

All you are doing is denying reality and in the process not helping yourself at all.  The left and right side of the wrist are bordered by the right side and left side outer palm "to the North" and the side of left and right sides of the forearm to the South.  Photos show blood on the OUTER palms and wrist. Vanezis and police say this is the only place there was blood.  They say this blood transferred to her gown.

They have photos that confirm no blood is on the inside palms which the public has not seen because Jeremy sees no advantage in providing it to the public.

You want to pretend Vanezis contradicted himself in his report by suggesting the inside of her hands were blood free yet the outside had blood.  You do so by refusing to comprehend his words and now ridiculously denying there is an outside palm.  You are doing the same nonsense you engage in to try to pretend the moderator was doctored. 

You are just as wrong about that and engage in the same mindless nonsense to try to justify your beliefs. I choose the face reality and actually follow evidence where it leads not make up my own by distorting what people experts assessed.

Those people who actually matter understand Vanezis words and interpret them the way I do.  Your interpretation is totally meaningless since your opinion matters not one bit.

You can scream as loud as you liek that doesn't mean you have any evidence to refute their interpretation.  You simply choose to believe your own ridiculous interpretation and it is ridiculous to assert that Vanezis didn't realize the contradiction if he were actually asserting the inside were free of blood an in another location suggesting the inside did have blood.  He would have realized it if he were contradicting himself.

It is not enough to just offer wild speculation he contradicted himself but didn't realize it you bear the burden of PROVING he meant inside which you cannot do.  You can't refute the police testimony her inner hands were free of blood.  You can't refute the photos showing her inside hands free of blood.  you can't refute the examination records demonstrating no bloody prints found.  You can't refute the evidence proving the Bible was sitting on top of blood.  You can't refute the evidence proving the Bible was opened, little bits of blood got on it, it was closed, it was reopened to the same exact page exhibiting a mirror image of the stain.  No way in hell did Sheila reopen it to the same exact page it had been opened to before.

You ignore the totality of the evidence to make up your own ideas which is no better than what Jeremy supporters do and that sort of informs how you ended up being one of them.
   
"Look at the lab reports.  If you can't get a hold of them then ask Mike if he won't provide them then you are stuck with just knowing the lab personnel tasked with it.  MadDonnell among others were shown the photos of the insides of her hands and they said the photos showed her hands to be clean."

Where did you get hold of them? If you have them you post them or is thus just bluster?

What bluster- they exist.  I posted the Court of Appeals provisions discussing how they exist.  I don't need to read them you are the one who wants to challenge them so you need to read them to even try to find a way to say they made a mistake.  My point is unassailable- the lab examined the Bible for prints.  They found no prints in blood- the only prints they found were not in blood.  That by definition means they decided that it was not a palm print.  Lincoln's report covered all the blood testing.  The blood on the Bible was not tested. It was not tested because the Bible was sitting in a puddle of Sheila's blood.  It was thus assumed it was her blood and no doubt it was.

You are the one saying you don't trust the assessment so you go find it to try to find a way to attack it.  I will assume print experts know how to identify a palm print when hey see one especially if it is the whole hand like you claim.  It is not a small piece of the palm like her dress had you are claiming it is the entire palm- not even an indentation where the hand dips in which would require the entire palm to be saturated in blood. 

"Like the lab personnel whose job it was to physically inspect the Bible looking for prints it was Sutherst's job to physically inspect the mantle in person to look for scratches?

No Sutherst blew up low quality photos of items that were distant in such photos. 

What happened to Sutherst is he engaged in the same kind of nonsense speculation you engage in without any basis at all to do so.  You are in no greater position than Sutherst was to challenge the experts and in fact an even lesser position than he was.  There were no close ups of the mantle but there were close up photos of her hand showing them clean you haven't seen them because you have no cause to be provided with them."

You're the one talking nonsense suggesting that wrist and palm are the same thing!!  ::) ::)

I didn't say they were the same thing.  I said that Vanezis chose to refer to the outside palms of the hand and wrist simply as the wrist in his report.  You deny there is an outside palm so I guess you think a hand is as flat as a piece of paper. You are straining for nothing.  Those who matter already decided that Vanezis was referring to the inside of the hand being free of blood and the outside edges having blood.  That is clearly what he meant and how they interpret it.  You have no ability to demonstrate this position to be wrong nor do you have any basis to use photos to try to contradict his assessment the wrist made the marks on her gown and the assessment of those experts who said the blood got on the Bible by being placed in a pool of blood and failed to assess it to be a palm print.

Your speculation is not supported by any proof and unless you can come up with concrete proof you are not going to convince me your theory is the least bit accurate. 

"Vanesis doesn't think they were finger shaped he said her wrist made them.  Blowing them up doesn't help at all it is as much of a waste as blowing up the Bible and trying to say you know what made the marks. I'll stick with those who actually inspected the items in person."
I don't CARE what Venezis though t because according to you he doesn't know his wrist from his palm!

I said he chose to simply say wrist instead of saying wrist and outer palms. But any nonsense you can come up with to convince yourself not to trust the experts you will engage in just like when you decided that because Jeremy wanted the DNA test it means he didn't use the moderator no matter what anyone else says about the subject.  You are acting the same way about this but it doesn't really matter because what you can prove matters not what you choose to believe. 

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Caroline

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #112 on: August 09, 2015, 10:50:PM »
 

All you are doing is denying reality and in the process not helping yourself at all.  The left and right side of the wrist are bordered by the right side and left side outer palm "to the North" and the side of left and right sides of the forearm to the South.  Photos show blood on the OUTER palms and wrist. Vanezis and police say this is the only place there was blood.  They say this blood transferred to her gown.

They have photos that confirm no blood is on the inside palms which the public has not seen because Jeremy sees no advantage in providing it to the public.

You want to pretend Vanezis contradicted himself in his report by suggesting the inside of her hands were blood free yet the outside had blood.  You do so by refusing to comprehend his words and now ridiculously denying there is an outside palm.  You are doing the same nonsense you engage in to try to pretend the moderator was doctored. 

You are just as wrong about that and engage in the same mindless nonsense to try to justify your beliefs. I choose the face reality and actually follow evidence where it leads not make up my own by distorting what people experts assessed.

Those people who actually matter understand Vanezis words and interpret them the way I do.  Your interpretation is totally meaningless since your opinion matters not one bit.

You can scream as loud as you liek that doesn't mean you have any evidence to refute their interpretation.  You simply choose to believe your own ridiculous interpretation and it is ridiculous to assert that Vanezis didn't realize the contradiction if he were actually asserting the inside were free of blood an in another location suggesting the inside did have blood.  He would have realized it if he were contradicting himself.

It is not enough to just offer wild speculation he contradicted himself but didn't realize it you bear the burden of PROVING he meant inside which you cannot do.  You can't refute the police testimony her inner hands were free of blood.  You can't refute the photos showing her inside hands free of blood.  you can't refute the examination records demonstrating no bloody prints found.  You can't refute the evidence proving the Bible was sitting on top of blood.  You can't refute the evidence proving the Bible was opened, little bits of blood got on it, it was closed, it was reopened to the same exact page exhibiting a mirror image of the stain.  No way in hell did Sheila reopen it to the same exact page it had been opened to before.

You ignore the totality of the evidence to make up your own ideas which is no better than what Jeremy supporters do and that sort of informs how you ended up being one of them.
   
What bluster- they exist.  I posted the Court of Appeals provisions discussing how they exist.  I don't need to read them you are the one who wants to challenge them so you need to read them to even try to find a way to say they made a mistake.  My point is unassailable- the lab examined the Bible for prints.  They found no prints in blood- the only prints they found were not in blood.  That by definition means they decided that it was not a palm print.  Lincoln's report covered all the blood testing.  The blood on the Bible was not tested. It was not tested because the Bible was sitting in a puddle of Sheila's blood.  It was thus assumed it was her blood and no doubt it was.

You are the one saying you don't trust the assessment so you go find it to try to find a way to attack it.  I will assume print experts know how to identify a palm print when hey see one especially if it is the whole hand like you claim.  It is not a small piece of the palm like her dress had you are claiming it is the entire palm- not even an indentation where the hand dips in which would require the entire palm to be saturated in blood. 

I didn't say they were the same thing.  I said that Vanezis chose to refer to the outside palms of the hand and wrist simply as the wrist in his report.  You deny there is an outside palm so I guess you think a hand is as flat as a piece of paper. You are straining for nothing.  Those who matter already decided that Vanezis was referring to the inside of the hand being free of blood and the outside edges having blood.  That is clearly what he meant and how they interpret it.  You have no ability to demonstrate this position to be wrong nor do you have any basis to use photos to try to contradict his assessment the wrist made the marks on her gown and the assessment of those experts who said the blood got on the Bible by being placed in a pool of blood and failed to assess it to be a palm print.

Your speculation is not supported by any proof and unless you can come up with concrete proof you are not going to convince me your theory is the least bit accurate. 

I said he chose to simply say wrist instead of saying wrist and outer palms. But any nonsense you can come up with to convince yourself not to trust the experts you will engage in just like when you decided that because Jeremy wanted the DNA test it means he didn't use the moderator no matter what anyone else says about the subject.  You are acting the same way about this but it doesn't really matter because what you can prove matters not what you choose to believe.

Your post is too long and life is too short - I'm not repeating myself again. the two statements contradict - end of! 8)

Edit: It must have taken you ages to write that but at the end of it all a wrist isn't a palm and a palm is STILL the inside of a hand - so, you're still wrong and the statements STILL contradicts. (Hee hee!!)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 10:54:PM by Caroline »
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #113 on: August 09, 2015, 11:03:PM »

Why would he NOT? You're just saying what you would-or not-have done. And can you point me to WHERE I suggested she shot herself. It's my understanding that Jeremy shot her. May I suggest you get yourself a cup of tea or a shot of bourbon. You sound as if you may have got a little confused after disagreeing with Caroline.

I'm not confused at all apparently you are.

Jeremy apparently wanted it to look like Sheila was reading the Bible BEFORE she shot herself to enhance the notion she was acting out of some religious delusions.

As I explained to you- but obviously went straight over your head- she could not shoot herself if she had a Bible in her hands.  Thus he would not want to kill her with the bible in her hands because if the blood proved she was busy holding a Bible than quite clearly she can't have shot herself and had to have been murdered.

So right off the bat there would be no advantage in throwing the Bible in her hands only disadvantages in doing so.  All he had to do was leave it in the room.

Furthermore, AFTER Sheila was shot someone got a little bit of blood on the bottom of a page then closed it.  Then it was reopened to the same exact page and after it was reopened is when the stain Caroline claims was a palm print was made. They say it wasn't a palm print but a stain made by sticking the Bible in a pool of her blood.  These facts convinced the experts someone closed the Bible causing the mirror image at the bottom then the killer reopened it to the same page and stuck it in the pool of blood. 

So in order for your theory to work:
A) Jeremy gave Sheila the Bible intentionally opened to the pages it was opened to before he shot her and she kept it there open
B) After she was shot she shut the Bible
C) She put her wrist to her wound getting blood on her wrist and outer palm which leaked down to her elbow.
D) She also put the inside of her hand to her wound and got her inside palm absolutely covered in blood
E) then she opened the Bible to the same exact page it had been opened to before thus leaving a palm print
F) then he finally shot her a second time killing her

Why would she open it again let alone to the same page?

It makes no sense.

Hartley and I am viewing the evidence in a logical manner.  Other people not so much...

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #114 on: August 10, 2015, 01:00:AM »
"He didn't say anything about the stain being from the inside palm of her hand.  You are the one inventing things and it is pure nonsense you are inventing."

The PALM is the inside of a hand and he said that the print on her nightdress appeared to have been transferred from her right palm - the palm being the INSIDE of a hand.

If a hand were flat like a sheet of paper then that would be true but it is not flat the hand has an edge running all the way around it.  That outer edge is known as the outer palm.  The blood transferred from that outer edge and the wrist according to the experts. 


You want us to believe Vanesis is so stupid he didn't realize he contradicted himself in his type written report by asserting the inside of her hands were free of blood and yet saying the inside of her hands had blood and she she thus left a palm print on her gown.  In order to try to get us to believe he is this stupid you suggest he put in his notes that she had blood inside her hand.  Once again A PALM IS the inside of a hand!

Once again the hand is not flat it is 3 dimensional there is an edge around the hand known as the outer palm. That is what is credited with the print.

"Your straining is for nothing.  The experts do not agree with you and thus the defense never even tried making this argument. Nor would they be able to try at best dishonest propagandists can try to use this in an informal setting like their website to try false creating more suspicion of wrongdoing claiming Vanezis was asked to distort."

 I don't care what these 'experts' (that you can't name) think - if we all agreed with the experts, there would be no debate.

There is not much of a debate when the other side has no evidence.  Deciding to ignore the experts without solid basis to do so doesn't create a good debate.     

At the end of the day you are just engaging in the same crap you accuse reader and others of engaging in when you debate against them. No, that's what you're doing and you can always tell when your argument is weak or that you are getting rattled because you get personal - take a breather and clam down dear!!  ;)

My position is the one supported by the evidence so is hardly weak.
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Offline Caroline

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #115 on: August 10, 2015, 01:09:AM »
If a hand were flat like a sheet of paper then that would be true but it is not flat the hand has an edge running all the way around it.  That outer edge is known as the outer palm.  The blood transferred from that outer edge and the wrist according to the experts. According to one experts notes (the one who FIRST viewed the body of SC) the blood transferred from her right palm - nothing about 'outer or inner' JUST palm.


Once again the hand is not flat it is 3 dimensional there is an edge around the hand known as the outer palm. That is what is credited with the print. No one is saying that except you - Venezis said palm and never mentioned the word OUTER. I have looked at some anatomy sites and books - they don't mention such a palm distinction either.

There is not much of a debate when the other side has no evidence.  Deciding to ignore the experts without solid basis to do so doesn't create a good debate. There goes those 'experts' again

My position is the one supported by the evidence so is hardly weak. It's mainstream - so what? Some experts don't appear to know their wrist from their palm or their ar ........ you get the idea on that
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 01:09:AM by Caroline »
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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #116 on: August 10, 2015, 01:49:AM »
According to one experts notes (the one who FIRST viewed the body of SC) the blood transferred from her right palm - nothing about 'outer or inner' JUST palm.

Those notes don't specify outside palm or inside palm. He didn't specify because he understood what he meant.  He described what he meant in his autopsy report- no blood inside her hand just her wrist outer palm areas.

His claims are supported by the other witnesses who saw her hands and photos of her hands.

No matter how much you try to deny this is what he meant and that he was wrong to say the inside of her hands were clean of blood you have zero evidentiary support you simply decided you will pretend his report is contradictory in saying her hands were free of blood.

I don't waste my time trying to pretend people said something I know they did not. If I actually try raising the argument in a formal setting the person will be asked to clarify and will say what I knew he meant all along and thus twisting is a wasted effort.

Sheila didn't get shot, get blood on it, close it, then reopen it to the same exact page and get a handprint on it after reopening it prior to the second shot. This is what you are effectively arguing happened.

In all likelihood Jeremy opened it to the Psalms thinking it sounded like good stuff for them to think she was contemplating death, got a little blood on it from his gloves which would have had some spots of blood but not been completely covered in blood, it closed on him as he was trying to plant it near her so he had to reopen the page then after that he stuck it in the pool of blood.  The primary significance of the mirror image is that it demonstrates it was closed and that mirror image created BEFORE the stains at the top were created.  Someone opened it, closed it then reopened it to the same exact page and after it was reopened to the same exact page that is when the stains at the top were created. Blood was on the rug under those top stains. What is more likely that the blood under those stains created the stains or that after Sheila was shot she closed the Bible then reopened the Bible to the same exact page before Jeremy fired the second shot and the fingerprint expert failed to figure out the stain was a palm print though you decided you could tell from a distant photo? 

You ignore a great number of things all to arrive at what you pre-decided you want to believe.

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Offline Caroline

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #117 on: August 10, 2015, 02:20:AM »
Those notes don't specify outside palm or inside palm. He didn't specify because he understood what he meant.  He described what he meant in his autopsy report- no blood inside her hand just her wrist outer palm areas. Exactly, they just say Palm - not write or outside/inside/upper/lower - JUST palm.

His claims are supported by the other witnesses who saw her hands and photos of her hands.

No matter how much you try to deny this is what he meant and that he was wrong to say the inside of her hands were clean of blood you have zero evidentiary support - other than his OWN words? you simply decided you will pretend his report is contradictory in saying her hands were free of blood. I'm not pretending - one states no blood the other says 'apart' from. Their his words, not mine, I'm not adding words like 'outer' or 'inner'

I don't waste my time trying to pretend people said something I know they did not. If I actually try raising the argument in a formal setting the person will be asked to clarify and will say what I knew he meant all along and thus twisting is a wasted effort. Which is what I am doing

Sheila didn't get shot, get blood on it, close it, then reopen it to the same exact page and get a handprint on it after reopening it prior to the second shot. This is what you are effectively arguing happened. Actually, I have never said that at all

In all likelihood Jeremy opened it to the Psalms thinking it sounded like good stuff for them to think she was contemplating death, got a little blood on it from his gloves which would have had some spots of blood but not been completely covered in blood, it closed on him as he was trying to plant it near her so he had to reopen the page then after that he stuck it in the pool of blood.  The primary significance of the mirror image is that it demonstrates it was closed and that mirror image created BEFORE the stains at the top were created.  Someone opened it, closed it then reopened it to the same exact page and after it was reopened to the same exact page that is when the stains at the top were created. Blood was on the rug under those top stains. What is more likely that the blood under those stains created the stains or that after Sheila was shot she closed the Bible then reopened the Bible to the same exact page before Jeremy fired the second shot and the fingerprint expert failed to figure out the stain was a palm print though you decided you could tell from a distant photo?  I didn't say anything about her being shot first.

You ignore a great number of things all to arrive at what you pre-decided you want to believe. Whatever I want to believe is my prerogative BUT, Venezis's notes still indicate that her hand(s) and right palm were not free from blood, that the night dress stain came from her palm but later wrote wrist. You can pretend their isn't a discrepancy - and that's your prerogative.

We won't ever agree on this because it's not your clarification that's required - it's Venezis's.
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Offline maggie

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #118 on: August 10, 2015, 08:56:AM »
Sorry to intrude but am sure that 'outer edge' of the hand is called the 'side' of the hand? The palm is the flat of the hand :-\ ??

Have never heard the expression 'outer palm' before and I've been around a bit  :)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 10:28:AM by maggie »

Offline lookout

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Re: Palm print on Bloodied Bible?
« Reply #119 on: August 10, 2015, 10:05:AM »
 Why do all these " experts " have differing views ?