Ending the SJ/1 nonsense once and for all

[Jane]

  I'd rather not. 

I see Adam has managed -YET AGAIN- to produce enough BS to disrupt a good debate.

[Jane]

I have reported you to the moderators. Similar to Jan you must stop getting over excited.

You know there is nothing to get hold of regarding the relatives finding the silencer. But you are once again just trying to back up you're unproven claim about the silencer not being used.

You said Stan Jones and others arranged to contaminate the silencer. I created a thread on this showing it is complete nonsense. Now you are again focusing on the relatives. To try to justify you're former 'innocent' stance.

Just admit you supported Jeremy so passionately because he is famous and wrote you letters.

And please answer my question about why it is important who was 'actually' in the room when the silencer was found.

Why do you question the importance of Caroline questioning who was in the room when the silencer was found -it's highly pertinent and part of the case- when you devote a thread to asking if Jeremy smuggled heroin which has nothing to do with the case.

[Jane]

Hi Adam personally I don't see anything wrong with BS but think we need to have agreement on this. I understand your complaint but it's in everyday use now and is no more abusive than rubbish etc imo.

Frankly, I see a whole lot wrong with BS and I wish Adam would refrain from such emissions.

[Jane]

I'd imagine that just one silencer wouldn't be enough if more than one worker was using a rifle at the same time.

We don't know that they were, and I doubt that Neville provided enough firearms for every worker. Most likely they'd all have had their own and bought them in as and when necessary -with or without silencers- which I don't imagine to have been a daily occurence.

[Jan]

This is a good discussion thread . I think it would be useful to look at the statements at the time also to compare where the silencer was "stored" and who actually reported it to the police because I have a feeling the accounts do vary . They definitely do later on - but as others have mentioned that would be normal - except they were making diary notes and as a certain poster has quite rightly said they were looking for evidence - so you would have  thought that this important find would have been noted in detail.

I get the feeling that the document that shows the call about the silencer on the 11th Sept is in fact DB calling to find out why the police were hanging about in telling the family what the blood on the silencer was . It is an ambiguous note.

[maggie]

 

Frankly, I see a whole lot wrong with BS and I wish Adam would refrain from such emissions.

 

[susan]

   

 

[scipio_usmc]

Hi scipio, as blood dries it cracks and flakes, 'blob of jam' sounds like a description from someone's imagination of what they thought it may look like, all I'm saying.
The statements regarding the whole situation were questionable imo. I am not claiming this proves innocence but questioning this particular event.

How thick blood is and where it is determines what happens to it.  Blood that is on a body is going to crack as will blood on something that moves. Blood that dries on a solid object where no movement is occurring will be able to dry in different shapes depending on the quantity of such blood.

A blob means a small amount of something.  The moderator's hole is not that large. Blood right inside that hole will naturally be a small amount and some would call that a blob. Did you ever see Jelly that dried outside of a container?  It can and does dry in small amounts that are not perfectly flat against the jar. Ann Eaton never claimed it looked wet.  People who don't want to believe the evidence and want to find a way to assert the blood was planted are trying to suggest she said it was wet at the time it was found but she didn't say that.  In some instance blood takes a very long time to dry totally mind you.  On cloth it can take more than a day to be fully dry.  Blood also changes colors differently on some materials than others. 

The blood the family saw in the opening is the blood that Howard used to test whether the blood was human.  It was apparently one of the largest blood deposits even though it was only the size of a matchhead. Sadly it wasn't used for typing instead because it would have been large enough and close enough to the murders to get a good the AK reading.  Furthermore since it was blocking the opening it presumably would have been from the last victim the moderator was used on. Lincoln found quite a bit of microscopic material where the "blob" had been and determined it was group A blood but could not get an AK reading because his testing was in 1986 and it was still only microscopic traces not the nice sample Howard used.

The blood extended well beyond the inside threads though.  Blood got to the 8th baffle as confirmed by defense expert Lincoln.  Trying to claim the family planted blood goes out the window since the family would not have known drawback would extend far and know to plant it so far let alone figure out how to plant it that far.  Nor did they know Sheila had a wound which would have resulted in drawback and if they did know that and did know the moderator wasn't used they would know blood would be in the rifle and it would expose their planting of evidence. hey wanted police to have all the items found in the closet but police only would take the moderator at first.  A month later they finally agreed to take the bullets and the scope. then after that they finally agreed to take the shotgun shells.  The family wanted police to have everything firearm related from WHF not just the moderator.

[maggie]

How thick blood is and where it is determines what happens to it.  Blood that is on a body is going to crack as will blood on something that moves. Blood that dries on a solid object where no movement is occurring will be able to dry in different shapes depending on the quantity of such blood.

A blob means a small amount of something.  The moderator's hole is not that large. Blood right inside that hole will naturally be a small amount and some would call that a blob. Did you ever see Jelly that dried outside of a container?  It can and does dry in small amounts that are not perfectly flat against the jar. Ann Eaton never claimed it looked wet.  People who don't want to believe the evidence and want to find a way to assert the blood was planted are trying to suggest she said it was wet at the time it was found but she didn't say that.  In some instance blood takes a very long time to dry totally mind you.  On cloth it can take more than a day to be fully dry.  Blood also changes colors differently on some materials than others. 

The blood the family saw in the opening is the blood that Howard used to test whether the blood was human.  It was apparently one of the largest blood deposits even though it was only the size of a matchhead. Sadly it wasn't used for typing instead because it would have been large enough and close enough to the murders to get a good the AK reading.  Furthermore since it was blocking the opening it presumably would have been from the last victim the moderator was used on. Lincoln found quite a bit of microscopic material where the "blob" had been and determined it was group A blood but could not get an AK reading because his testing was in 1986 and it was still only microscopic traces not the nice sample Howard used.

The blood extended well beyond the inside threads though.  Blood got to the 8th baffle as confirmed by defense expert Lincoln.  Trying to claim the family planted blood goes out the window since the family would not have known drawback would extend far and know to plant it so far let alone figure out how to plant it that far.  Nor did they know Sheila had a wound which would have resulted in drawback and if they did know that and did know the moderator wasn't used they would know blood would be in the rifle and it would expose their planting of evidence. hey wanted police to have all the items found in the closet but police only would take the moderator at first.  A month later they finally agreed to take the bullets and the scope. then after that they finally agreed to take the shotgun shells.  The family wanted police to have everything firearm related from WHF not just the moderator.

Scipio blood on metal dries in hours turning dark brown and flaking off. The blood was never said to be inside the moderator hole where it just may have escaped oxgenation but the blob like jam was said to be at the end of the silemcer. I am not trying to any sort of  manipulation this is one point I find questionable as do others.

[scipio_usmc]

I'm not talking about who was in the house at the time! I'm talking about who was there IN THE ROOM when the silencer was ACTUALLY found!

He was in the room alone because everyone in the house was doing different things. After he found it he brought it to the attention of others and their reactions varied from not caring at all (Cock) to the family agreeing it and the other firearms items should be turned over to police but not thinking too much of it.  Ann said she thought maybe it was simply animal blood and didn't realize the significance of the moderator until the trial when she heard he experts discussing the significance.

The notion he found it and then decided on the spur to plant blood inside so took it apart and planted blood doesn't sound very plausible or that he subsequently snuck into the kitchen to scratch the mantle then returned to the office with it and pretend it was like that when he found it. People were nearby enough to hear him say he found it and to then go in the room to see what he was talking about so presumably some were in the kitchen at the time.

 

[scipio_usmc]

This is a good discussion thread . I think it would be useful to look at the statements at the time also to compare where the silencer was "stored" and who actually reported it to the police because I have a feeling the accounts do vary . They definitely do later on - but as others have mentioned that would be normal - except they were making diary notes and as a certain poster has quite rightly said they were looking for evidence - so you would have  thought that this important find would have been noted in detail.

I get the feeling that the document that shows the call about the silencer on the 11th Sept is in fact DB calling to find out why the police were hanging about in telling the family what the blood on the silencer was . It is an ambiguous note.

There was no call about a silencer on September 11. There was a call about the scope and bullets which subsequently were picked up by police from Ann Eaton that same day. 

[Jane]

He was in the room alone because everyone in the house was doing different things. After he found it he brought it to the attention of others and their reactions varied from not caring at all (Cock) to the family agreeing it and the other firearms items should be turned over to police but not thinking too much of it.  Ann said she thought maybe it was simply animal blood and didn't realize the significance of the moderator until the trial when she heard he experts discussing the significance.

The notion he found it and then decided on the spur to plant blood inside so took it apart and planted blood doesn't sound very plausible or that he subsequently snuck into the kitchen to scratch the mantle then returned to the office with it and pretend it was like that when he found it. People were nearby enough to hear him say he found it and to then go in the room to see what he was talking about so presumably some were in the kitchen at the time.

So what you're saying, is that although people were near enough to hear him say he'd found it, but because nobody was in the room, no one actually SAW him find it.

[scipio_usmc]

Scipio blood on metal dries in hours turning dark brown and flaking off. The blood was never said to be inside the moderator hole where it just may have escaped oxgenation but the blob like jam was said to be at the end of the silemcer. I am not trying to any sort of  manipulation this is one point I find questionable as do others.

Blood adheres to metal. That is why blood was found on the baffles. If blood didn't adhere none would have been on the baffles it would have all been on the sides.  You are making it sound like it would just disintegrate. The claims you are making are not claims scientists or experts are making and you should consider why they didn't make such claims. Metal is not porous and as a result the blood will not soak and become flat like will be the case on porous surfaces where it is absorbed into, it will remain more textured. A guy fell and cracked his head open in a store I worked in.  He was on the floor being treated for an extended period. I later had to clean the mess up. The floor was nonporous. There were chunks throughout the spill it was not simply flat and this is on a floor. It was bumpy like vomit. Before blood coagulates it glistens like this:



Boutflour didn't have any preservatives to store blood he would have to have cut himself there and then to plant the blood and the people would have known something was wrong if it were wet blood so he would have need to wait a while for it to dry and taking it apart to plant blood on each baffle and also at the tip would have left him with an obvious wound not simply a pin prick he could hide.

[Jan]

the relatives said NB would always tidy away the guns at night although not lock them away - but when you look at the house ( very untidy typical farmhouse ) it seems odd that the silencer was put away in a box - and yet the "blob"of blood did not get disturbed or smudged .

I think it was handled more when taken away from WHF by the family rather than when it was there.

[Caroline]

I have reported you to the moderators. Similar to Jan you must stop getting over excited.

You know there is nothing to get hold of regarding the relatives finding the silencer. But you are once again just trying to back up you're unproven claim about the silencer not being used.

You said Stan Jones and others arranged to contaminate the silencer. I created a thread on this showing it is complete nonsense. Now you are again focusing on the relatives. To try to justify you're former 'innocent' stance.

Just admit you supported Jeremy so passionately because he is famous and wrote you letters.

And please answer my question about why it is important who was 'actually' in the room when the silencer was found.

Good!