Exhibits from the family

[Caroline]

Honestly I dont think JB did it. Its just a feeling

So no more fence sitting then? But for an decent argument, you need more than a feeling.

[scipio_usmc]

Honestly I dont think JB did it. Its just a feeling

A feeling that requires ignoring the evidence in the case...  People who believe Jeremy is innocent need to close their eyes to reality and make up nonsense to try to pretend it is possible for him to be innocent.  That says volumes about whether he truly is innocent.

Since Jeremy supporters make up so much nonsense that is why people who think he is guilty make the effort to refute such lies and rubbish.  If pro-Jeremy nonsense wasn't spewed there would be no opportunity to refute such but since it is spewed the opportunity to counter it exists.

If Jeremy is innocent then:

1) why didn't Sheila have blood of the victims on her, elevated lead levels from loading the bullets, GSR/soot on her hands and gown and have Nevill's blood on her body and gown?  The killer would have had all of these things. 

2) How could Sheila have killed herself with the rifle sans moderator and yet no blood to get inside the rifle and yet blood to be inside the moderator?

3) How could Sheila have died seated then after a short while move her own body flat and also to have
placed the Bible in a pool of blood that formed after she died?

4) How could Jeremy have taken out a full or near full box of ammo (47-50 rounds), 25 rounds from such box be used and yet 30 remain?  Quiet clearly the bullets were staged after the murders- how could Jeremy have staged it after the murders unless he were the killer?

5) How could Jeremy have found the gun with the moderator and scope removed when it was routinely stored with them attached?  Quite obviously he removed the scope in anticipation of the murders.

6) Why would Jeremy leave the bullets and gun out and why would Nevill and June not put them away knowing the twins were over?

7) Why would Jeremy have removed the bedroom phone to replace a perfectly good kitchen phone and then lie about it later unless he did it for the murders?

8 ) Why would Nevill try to phone Jeremy if Sheila was threatening him with a gun?  He would either arm himself or dial 999 if he needed help.

9) The evidence proves the shooting started int he master bedroom with both Nevill and June being shot until the magazine was empty.  Then Nevill and the killer went to the kitchen.  How could Nevill have phoned before the shooting started when they were attacked in a room that had no phone and by the time he got to the kitchen he was injured and could not speak?

10)  If Jeremy actually received a call from Nevill he would not have called Julie period he would have either rushed over or have called police.  Calling Julie period gives away he didn't receive the call claimed but worse he lied about it and told police he immediately tried to call Nevill back then called the police and last called Julie.  He would not have been able to call Nevill back though he would have to have waited for the phone to clear which would have taken a couple of minutes.  If he were telling the truth he would have told police his phone would not work at first. 2 of Julie's roomates even insist the call came around 3AM so before the time Jeremy even claimed he received a call from Nevill.

11) Why would Sheila want to kill everyone she had no motive.

12) Sheila only had episodes when she was off her medication but she took her medication 3 weeks earlier and the injections last 6 weeks.   

13) Sheila went to sleep early because her medication caused her to be tired a lot. It is a major tranquilizer and she was even diagnoses as being over medicated because of the symptoms witnesses described of her having problems communicating and being drowsy and vacant.  What would make her wake up at 3AM and send her into an episode despite her medication?

14) WHy would Julie make up such a detailed account of him planning the murders and knowing he had no alibi why would she make up a claim he told her he hired a hitman?  If she were going to make up something she would make up that he confessed to killing everyone himself.

Your feeling is based on little more than ridiculous biases you have including the refusal to face Jeremy's own lies and claims such as refusing to accept Jeremy's own assertions he could fit through the kitchen window.  You mainly base your feelings on the notion he would not have shot Sheila a second time and instead would have fled and risked her surviving.  Your feelings are not rational based and ignore all the evidence in the case.

[scipio_usmc]

So no more fence sitting then? But for an decent argument, you need more than a feeling.

At least she is being honest about her position finally, though we knew it all along anyway so there was no benefit to pretending otherwise.

[lookout]

Lookout, it sounds, to me, as if you're saying that you felt shocked and disappointed when Caroline and I "changed sides." I CAN understand that. I don't think Caroline will attack me if I include her when I say that we were both vociferous -OK, MOUTHY!!!- in our support of Jeremy. I can, however, ONLY speak for myself when I say that I was beginning to HEAR myself sounding as if I was having to make excuses for his actions and behaviours and it was at that point that I began re-evaluating. Whilst it may have seemed sudden and shocking to you, it actually took weeks of evaluation before I was certain enough to say how I felt because I knew, that having committed to it, there'd be no going back. Even THEN, I didn't feel entirely certain but when I started to apply logic, ie what I believe HAD happened as opposed to what I would have LIKED to have happened, I felt confident that I HAD made the right decision.

I'm laying it on the line here, Lookout. I'm revealing exactly how it was and being as honest as I can. I'm sorry if you feel disappointed, but whilst on many occasions, I'll go with the flow, rather than make waves simply because I can, in this case I HAD to be true to myself. I couldn't pretend to believe something I no longer had faith in.

I can't argue with your post,April,it's a very fair one and explained very well too.

[Jane]

Same here April, both you and Maggie will remember that I initially told you both that I had doubts but it was quite some time before I wrote on the forum about it. And even then, it was ONLY because the discussion had dried up!!

Yes, Caroline, I remember. Both Maggie and I encouraged you to "come out" -a bit selfishly, perhaps- to generate discussion on a flagging forum. For myself, I carried it around for WEEKS, feeling really disloyal but I was actually being disloyal ONLY to myself and I felt as if a weight had been lifted from my shoulders when I was able to confess how I felt.

[lookout]

Yes, Caroline, I remember. Both Maggie and I encouraged you to "come out" -a bit selfishly, perhaps- to generate discussion on a flagging forum. For myself, I carried it around for WEEKS, feeling really disloyal but I was actually being disloyal ONLY to myself and I felt as if a weight had been lifted from my shoulders when I was able to confess how I felt.

I would probably have felt like yourself if it were not for the fact that top police officers,etc couldn't find any evidence that it was Jeremy. Top cops of all people who were specialised in murder investigations and contrary to what people say about Jeremy " having fooled " them------------no chance,these guys can't be fooled by anyone.
EP had ignored the inheritance spiel and had made their minds up that it was none other than Sheila.
Top cops NEVER ignore evidence,and if it wasn't there to start with after their searches,etc.These guys were 100% certain that it was Sheila.
Make no mistake,Jeremy couldn't fool any of the team who dealt with the murders.

I have the biggest issues with the lack of evidence,as well as the credibility of the prosecution witnesses.

[Jane]

I would probably have felt like yourself if it were not for the fact that top police officers,etc couldn't find any evidence that it was Jeremy. Top cops of all people who were specialised in murder investigations and contrary to what people say about Jeremy " having fooled " them------------no chance,these guys can't be fooled by anyone.
EP had ignored the inheritance spiel and had made their minds up that it was none other than Sheila.
Top cops NEVER ignore evidence,and if it wasn't there to start with after their searches,etc.These guys were 100% certain that it was Sheila.
Make no mistake,Jeremy couldn't fool any of the team who dealt with the murders.

I have the biggest issues with the lack of evidence,as well as the credibility of the prosecution witnesses.

Lookout, I don't live in a black or white world. For me, it's all about grey area. Sadly, EVERYONE makes mistakes. Mike made a point of saying that the police weren't influenced by anything Jeremy said. We are ALL influenced by the first words we here about a situation. Who, other than Jeremy, knew the family? I believe he told them exactly what he wanted them to hear to plant the belief that Sheila was responsible. Until he opened his mouth -father saying daughter gone mad, has gun. Sister mentally ill, just released from psych hospital, knows how to use guns- EP were what new borns are, tabula rasa, a clean slate. Jeremy was the first person, on that occasion, to inform their slate. VERY difficult, with that mind set installed, to think any other way. This is by no means the only crime where police have looked at it from the wrong angle and gone down the wrong road.

[lookout]

Lookout, I don't live in a black or white world. For me, it's all about grey area. Sadly, EVERYONE makes mistakes. Mike made a point of saying that the police weren't influenced by anything Jeremy said. We are ALL influenced by the first words we here about a situation. Who, other than Jeremy, knew the family? I believe he told them exactly what he wanted them to hear to plant the belief that Sheila was responsible. Until he opened his mouth -father saying daughter gone mad, has gun. Sister mentally ill, just released from psych hospital, knows how to use guns- EP were what new borns are, tabula rasa, a clean slate. Jeremy was the first person, on that occasion, to inform their slate. VERY difficult, with that mind set installed, to think any other way. This is by no means the only crime where police have looked at it from the wrong angle and gone down the wrong road.

I'm still giving Jeremy the benefit of the doubt.This is what it's about in a situation such as this where there are no alibi's. I remain of the belief that Neville did ring Jeremy,and that police would naturally ask about the weapons held within WHF,it being a farm where it's not unusual for there to be guns.

There's no accounting for the differences in the age of Sheila,with normally the older member of the family who'd get it wrong.
Why would Jeremy give two different ages ? Liars are supposed to have good memories. If this was a planned assassination,then everything else would run with the same precision. But it didn't.It was an utter shambles if it was meant as planned,with so many anomalies made by a few.

There is at least one officer who wishes to remain anonymous for the time being,who attended the scene and who is 100% certain of Jeremy's innocence. I have no name. 

[scipio_usmc]

Well you request I am banned whenever I criticise Nugnug. Although you are content to let him call mine and Scopio's posts 'bullshit', say Scipio made up documents and create threads on false quotes.

To be fair the moderators are on you're side, telling me it is acceptable for Nugnug to say 'bullshit' but guilters are not allowed to criticise his posts as he has writing problems.

You have never put me on ignore. Jan claims she does. But then always engages when seeing my post when someone quotes it. So don't know why she does it.

You fought hard to defend Jeremy when I first joined. Similar to another elderly poster of 30 years, Lookout, you were not going change stance without a fight.

As you said, you found yourself having to defend Jeremy too much. As I was the only guilter posting on a regular basis at the time, a thank you would be have been nice. Otherwise it would now just be you and Lookout in denial.

Not too late to say 'thank you'.

I have defended myself against Nug's charges and challenged Nug to produce evidence to prove his bogus charges and have not been penalized as a result.  No one told e I have to lay off or will suffer sanction.

I have gone after Mike's distortions with great vigor and aside from a long time ago when Mike banned Harters and I for a short period I have not been banned for my position.  It would be hard pressed for anyone to argue I walk on eggshells here because I am in the "guilty camp". 

[Jane]

I'm still giving Jeremy the benefit of the doubt.This is what it's about in a situation such as this where there are no alibi's. I remain of the belief that Neville did ring Jeremy,and that police would naturally ask about the weapons held within WHF,it being a farm where it's not unusual for there to be guns.

There's no accounting for the differences in the age of Sheila,with normally the older member of the family who'd get it wrong.
Why would Jeremy give two different ages ? Liars are supposed to have good memories. If this was a planned assassination,then everything else would run with the same precision. But it didn't.It was an utter shambles if it was meant as planned,with so many anomalies made by a few.

There is at least one officer who wishes to remain anonymous for the time being,who attended the scene and who is 100% certain of Jeremy's innocence. I have no name.

I accepted the phone call partly because numbers/timings/distances etc go over my head. It didn't help that the timings kept changing. It wasn't that which made me think. It was the wording. Jeremy told the police that his father had sounded "panicked" -3am. His daughter had gone mad. She had a gun!!!- and yet MUST have waited the best part of 20 minutes before contacting the police. I accept that there may not have been any response from the first police station. SURELY then, recalling "panicked" he'd have dialled 999 but NO, he spends MORE time going through the phone book to look for another at according to Mike 3.36!!! I can only think he was deliberately wasting time. I CAN'T make excuses for him, Lookout. It just isn't possible to heap excuse on excuse ad infinitum. We're not talking about a child here. This is a man -OK, an immature one- who has been through boarding school and spent much time making his own way on the other side of the world and having to make his own decisions. It seems to me that he was a man who'd spent much time going against everything his father stood for unless it suited him.

I think you have it wrong about the discrepancies in Sheila's age. It wasn't Jeremy who got it wrong. He may have given the correct age but it was misquoted when the message was passed on.

 Personally, re Neville's alleged call, I'd have found it MORE believable if he'd called the police first and THEN phoned Jeremy to advise him of the situation. Just out of interest, do you believe Neville took time to look through the phone book to find a police station OR did he call 999, OR do you believe that he never made a call.

[scipio_usmc]

I accepted the phone call partly because numbers/timings/distances etc go over my head. It didn't help that the timings kept changing. It wasn't that which made me think. It was the wording. Jeremy told the police that his father had sounded "panicked" -3am. His daughter had gone mad. She had a gun!!!- and yet MUST have waited the best part of 20 minutes before contacting the police. I accept that there may not have been any response from the first police station. SURELY then, recalling "panicked" he'd have dialled 999 but NO, he spends MORE time going through the phone book to look for another at according to Mike 3.36!!! I can only think he was deliberately wasting time. I CAN'T make excuses for him, Lookout. It just isn't possible to heap excuse on excuse ad infinitum. We're not talking about a child here. This is a man -OK, an immature one- who has been through boarding school and spent much time making his own way on the other side of the world and having to make his own decisions. It seems to me that he was a man who'd spent much time going against everything his father stood for unless it suited him.

I think you have it wrong about the discrepancies in Sheila's age. It wasn't Jeremy who got it wrong. He may have given the correct age but it was misquoted when the message was passed on.

 Personally, re Neville's alleged call, I'd have found it MORE believable if he'd called the police first and THEN phoned Jeremy to advise him of the situation. Just out of interest, do you believe Neville took time to look through the phone book to find a police station OR did he call 999, OR do you believe that he never made a call.

Jeremy could not even remember her married name I think it is likely Jeremy did get her age wrong.  Many siblings end up being only ballpark right when it comes to their siblings ages even when not adopted. The age apart will fluctuate to make matters worse unless both have the same birthday in different years. The age gap grows or shrinks by a year at the birthday of one or the other.  For instance my brother is 1 year younger half the year but 2 years younger than me the other half.  Some people don't even know how old they are.  When you are adult you start ignoring it and losing count (sometimes intentionally).  I know people who have accidentally given their incorrect ages and needed to be corrected.  I also know people who screwed up their birthday.  My paternal grandmother had us celebrate her birthday the wrong day we found out after she died her birthday was actually a day earlier than we had thought!  Screwing up her age is the one thing that Jeremy could have reasonably done.  I would not read too much into such an error given what I have seen by others. 

[Jane]

Jeremy could not even remember her married name I think it is likely Jeremy did get her age wrong.  Many siblings end up being only ballpark right when it comes to their siblings ages even when not adopted. The age apart will fluctuate to make matters worse unless both have the same birthday in different years. The age gap grows or shrinks by a year at the birthday of one or the other.  For instance my brother is 1 year younger half the year but 2 years younger than me the other half.  Some people don't even know how old they are.  When you are adult you start ignoring it and losing count (sometimes intentionally).  I know people who have accidentally given their incorrect ages and needed to be corrected.  I also know people who screwed up their birthday.  My paternal grandmother had us celebrate her birthday the wrong day we found out after she died her birthday was actually a day earlier than we had thought!  Screwing up her age is the one thing that Jeremy could have reasonably done.  I would not read too much into such an error given what I have seen by others.

Well, I did allow him the benefit of the doubt there, but as the age was passed between three people, ONE of them got it wrong and it could equally have been Jeremy. Not a HUGE thing which ever way one views it.

[lookout]

I accepted the phone call partly because numbers/timings/distances etc go over my head. It didn't help that the timings kept changing. It wasn't that which made me think. It was the wording. Jeremy told the police that his father had sounded "panicked" -3am. His daughter had gone mad. She had a gun!!!- and yet MUST have waited the best part of 20 minutes before contacting the police. I accept that there may not have been any response from the first police station. SURELY then, recalling "panicked" he'd have dialled 999 but NO, he spends MORE time going through the phone book to look for another at according to Mike 3.36!!! I can only think he was deliberately wasting time. I CAN'T make excuses for him, Lookout. It just isn't possible to heap excuse on excuse ad infinitum. We're not talking about a child here. This is a man -OK, an immature one- who has been through boarding school and spent much time making his own way on the other side of the world and having to make his own decisions. It seems to me that he was a man who'd spent much time going against everything his father stood for unless it suited him.

I think you have it wrong about the discrepancies in Sheila's age. It wasn't Jeremy who got it wrong. He may have given the correct age but it was misquoted when the message was passed on.

 Personally, re Neville's alleged call, I'd have found it MORE believable if he'd called the police first and THEN phoned Jeremy to advise him of the situation. Just out of interest, do you believe Neville took time to look through the phone book to find a police station OR did he call 999, OR do you believe that he never made a call.

Surely Jeremy would have known the word panicked,and also the difference between ringing 999 as opposed to the number of the station. Why did he even mention the word ? He needn't have done,need he if it was that he'd planned something. ?
To my mind he said too much for it to have been planned. He may as well have just said he did it and be done with.
A customer doesn't tell a shopkeeper that he's going to burgle his shop.That's too easy. He keeps his mouth shut.
I just can't believe the stupidity of carrying out a crime,after telling two people their intentions,then leaving clues left right and centre. So either Jeremy didn't do it,or he's suffering from mental retardation,because nobody on this earth is that dumb.

It gets worse as you go along if you start looking for all the faux-pars. If you list them all,nobody would believe he was the murderer.

[lookout]

Remember one thing,liars have got good memories. Jeremy's memory was somewhat rusty,especially about the times of the calls.
He certainly tried to fathom out the times,but kept on being contradicted by EP on his arrest,which naturally confuses the best of us when someone else butts in with their own interpretations.

I'm looking at this case from a more humane view on how I would have reacted under pressure. I'd have crumbled and told them all to sod off.

[scipio_usmc]

Well, I did allow him the benefit of the doubt there, but as the age was passed between three people, ONE of them got it wrong and it could equally have been Jeremy. Not a HUGE thing which ever way one views it.

There were two mistakes with Seila's age-

1) Either Jeremy telling her age wrong to West

or

Jeremy telling west her correct age but West screwing it up and recording a different age than Jeremy told him

and

2) Either West verbally telling Bonnett a different age than West recorded in writing

or

Bonnett accidentally writing down a different age than West told him either because he misheard or misrembered by the time he wrote it down.


I think Jeremy screwing up her age is rather likely and not a big deal.  Not remembering her last name is more surprising that he should really have known. I think Jeremy had to build up courage to call the police and was practicing what he would say and that is why there was the time gap between him calling Julie and calling police. He was so focused on the story he was making up he didn't pay as much attention to trying to think of her last name or trying to calculate her age.