Familiar Portrait?

[susan]

Susan, I think in a way he did. He didn´t think that Sheila was actually mentally ill, but rather "carried" June´s illness for the whole family. A strange dynamics, but it does happen. Of course I don´t know if that was the case, but Colin believed it might be.

Alias you could well be right I will need to read the book again I did find it rather hard work and as a result did do some skim reading

[maggie]

Maggie
I think the boys did not like going to the farm as they were made to pray too much not just bed time prayers  and she was rather critical of them but the boys really loved Ralph as did Sheila.

Yes, I appreciate that......

[Alias]

Maggie
I think the boys did not like going to the farm as they were made to pray too much not just bed time prayers  and she was rather critical of them but the boys really loved Ralph as did Sheila.

Still, they did not want to go to White House Farm. None of them. In fact the boys cried and clung to Colin when he was about to leave, they cried and clung to him desperately, like he had never seen before.

[susan]

Still, they did not want to go to White House Farm. None of them. In fact the boys cried and clung to Colin when he was about to leave, they cried and clung to him desperately, like he had never seen before.

Alias Colin  feels very guilty as he promised the boys he would speak to June about the prayers and other issues and he never did and that was the last time he saw them.  Think he said that Ralph changed his behaviour towards Sheila because of the way June would react to him June did not like him being all lovey dovey with her

[Caroline]

Thank you for that Caroline, think I can work all that out for myself and I am quite open to other people's arguments and attitudes.
I have always said I believe Jeremey would have to have been a psychopath to have carried out the murders, which is why I continue to question.

Work what out? I asked why you think there should be limits and what they should be?

[Caroline]

Anyway ......

The comments "Involved in petty thievery, he seemed to lack discipline, used his charm to get away with not working too hard"

Were actually said about Ted Bundy - an altogether different kind of psychopath (he enjoyed killing people and there was an element of the 'sadist' about him) - but the description is similar to those made about Jeremy.

[Alias]

Anyway ......

The comments "Involved in petty thievery, he seemed to lack discipline, used his charm to get away with not working too hard"

Were actually said about Ted Bundy - an altogether different kind of psychopath (he enjoyed killing people and there was an element of the 'sadist' about him) - but the description is similar to those made about Jeremy.

I disagree about Ted Bundy having been a sadist. He killed his victims instantly. He was a necropheliac and didn´t torture his victims while they were alive.

[maggie]

Anyway ......

The comments "Involved in petty thievery, he seemed to lack discipline, used his charm to get away with not working too hard"

Were actually said about Ted Bundy - an altogether different kind of psychopath (he enjoyed killing people and there was an element of the 'sadist' about him) - but the description is similar to those made about Jeremy.

Broadly speaking but I just don't take that as proof of JB being a psychopath as we can find similarities anywhere if we are looking for them.  My argument is that we don't know enough about him, personally to be able to point the finger and say he is a psychopath, however that is my opinion and I respect the fact you see him differently.

[Caroline]

I disagree about Ted Bundy having been a sadist. He killed his victims instantly. He was a necropheliac and didn´t torture his victims while they were alive.

Well, I'm not a Bundy enthusiast so will bow to your better knowledge. The point was that that the description of his is the same as what has been said about Jeremy.

Just to add - Psychology Today seems to class Bundy as a sadistic killer but if you know better.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/disturbed/201307/sadistic-killers

[Alias]

Well, I'm not a Bundy enthusiast so will bow to your better knowledge. The point was that that the description of his is the same as what has been said about Jeremy.

Just to add - Psychology Today seems to class Bundy as a sadistic killer but if you know better.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/disturbed/201307/sadistic-killers

I am no expert, all I know is that he killed his victims instantanously, so there was no torture. Thank God for those girls, however horrible it is what happened to them, they did not suffer for long.

Other than that, I find it hard to compare Jeremy and Ted Bundy, vastly different cases.

"Involved in petty thievery, he seemed to lack discipline, used his charm to get away with not working too hard" <- can be said about a lot of people, why do you choose Ted Bundy for comparison?

[Jane]

Broadly speaking but I just don't take that as proof of JB being a psychopath as we can find similarities anywhere if we are looking for them.  My argument is that we don't know enough about him, personally to be able to point the finger and say he is a psychopath, however that is my opinion and I respect the fact you see him differently.

What would you consider to be proof that Jeremy is psychopathic?

[lookout]

Caroline, I have yet to come across anyone of those who knew him pre murders who supports the description Lookout paints of him. Come to think of it, I've yet to meet anyone who knew June to describe her the way Lookout does.

Because June was similar in character to my own mother--------children should be seen and not heard.
I couldn't " see it " as it was the norm for bro. and myself,but other people had noticed.This is why I can relate. Best behaviour and speak nicely and all that,not so much the Bibley bit,but would never play " Devil music " as she used to call pop music. Family Favourites and Womans Hour were the order of the day. She'd turn in her grave if she saw life as it is today.
I HAD to go to church and Sunday school too,religiously-----------no excuses.

[Caroline]

I am no expert, all I know is that he killed his victims instantanously, so there was no torture. Thank God for those girls, however horrible it is what happened to them, they did not suffer for long.

Other than that, I find it hard to compare Jeremy and Ted Bundy, vastly different cases.

"Involved in petty thievery, he seemed to lack discipline, used his charm to get away with not working too hard" <- can be said about a lot of people, why do you choose Ted Bundy for comparison?

I already said that; I said the description of them is the same.

[Caroline]

Broadly speaking but I just don't take that as proof of JB being a psychopath as we can find similarities anywhere if we are looking for them.  My argument is that we don't know enough about him, personally to be able to point the finger and say he is a psychopath, however that is my opinion and I respect the fact you see him differently.

I didn't say it was proof of anything. However, I think he killed 5 people, he has very few people who stood by him and far more that were happy to condemn hi. Their descriptions of him are all pretty similar and there aren't many of the PCL-R items that haven't been attributed to him.

[Jane]

Because June was similar in character to my own mother--------children should be seen and not heard.
I couldn't " see it " as it was the norm for bro. and myself,but other people had noticed.This is why I can relate. Best behaviour and speak nicely and all that,not so much the Bibley bit,but would never play " Devil music " as she used to call pop music. Family Favourites and Womans Hour were the order of the day. She'd turn in her grave if she saw life as it is today.
I HAD to go to church and Sunday school too,religiously-----------no excuses.

As she was to mine, Lookout.  The difference being that June's friends saw her as a good, kind and gentle woman. My mother, who was nothing like that, didn't have friends and her peer group within the family tolerated her for the sake of peace. She was too judgemental and dogmatic. If it wasn't done/if THEY didn't do it her way, it was the wrong way. I, too, was forced to church -for which she worked enormously hard and gave to generously- and Sunday school at a time when all other children were permitted to exercise choice in it. The only criticism of June I've read from the family is about the amount of money she spent on Sheila.