Facts

[lookout]

Charles Bronson has been moved 120 times since he was first jailed in 1974 for seven years for armed robbery.  But i think this is more to do with prisons not being able to handle him.  I think he is in a special cell made for him at Wakefield?

Goodness me. I know the place is full of rotters,and I also know what I'd do as well.

[lookout]

 I'm trying to picture a " man-size " figure crawling around on the bedroom floor,shooting at his mother and sister. June had received some shots while in a sitting position and Sheila,as we know,received her shots,one of which was in an upward position.
Strange how both women were found close enough for the rifle to have been fired from a foot away for June's injuries ??

[lookout]

 The shot that June received between the eyes,IMO,would have been done after the poor woman had died.

[Caroline]

I'm trying to picture a " man-size " figure crawling around on the bedroom floor,shooting at his mother and sister. June had received some shots while in a sitting position and Sheila,as we know,received her shots,one of which was in an upward position.
Strange how both women were found close enough for the rifle to have been fired from a foot away for June's injuries ??

Why would he be crawling around the floor?

[lookout]

Why would he be crawling around the floor?

To shoot while June was in a sitting position with her back against the door. The same with the angle that the fatal bullet went into Sheila's brain------upwards.

So far as I can gather,the shots that June received didn't enter at an angle,and as police had themselves pointed out,she was in a sitting position,so the shooter would have had to have been a rifle length away plus another foot to have shot straight into her,and also sitting facing her.

[Caroline]

To shoot while June was in a sitting position with her back against the door. The same with the angle that the fatal bullet went into Sheila's brain------upwards.

So far as I can gather,the shots that June received didn't enter at an angle,and as police had themselves pointed out,she was in a sitting position,so the shooter would have had to have been a rifle length away plus another foot to have shot straight into her,and also sitting facing her.

I don't think he was crawling around the floor. Don't know much about bullet trajectories - but I'm sure NGB or Scip (or both) will be able to explain this aspect?

[scipio_usmc]

I don't think he was crawling around the floor. Don't know much about bullet trajectories - but I'm sure NGB or Scip (or both) will be able to explain this aspect?

In all likelihood she was lying on the floor and was shot between the eyes to make sure she was dead. If she were standing it would mean she was running to her attacker which would be pretty strange. Furthermore if she were standing when shot it means she was shot in the initial burst and that Jeremy had 11 bullets in the gun.  While it is quite possible for him to have 11 shots in the gun her movements are hard to explain.  She walked around the bed to Nevill's side then back towards the door.  There is not that much room to walk and she would have had great difficulty walking through the killer so it is easier to think she walked to Nevill's side after the killer left the room or at least while the killer was in the doorway. So she would have to have run around the bed and then turned around and walk to the doorway with the killer aiming the gun at her head. Then have spun around after being shot. This seems unlikely. Much more likely is that she collapsed and was shot later while on the floor just to make sure she was dead. They didn't have any reconstruction experts go to the scene and didn't preserve enough for modern reconstructionists to work their craft well. They do a pretty amazing job today of piecing together the progression of events.

I personally still wonder whether June ended up jumping across the bed to Nevill's side and getting out of bed on Nevill's side and the blood trail simply was from her walking from his side towards the door as opposed to walking back and forth. The bedding was destroyed so there is no way to know. Unless Nevill was sleeping on the quilt the killer moved the quilt over the sheets later. It is not credible that Nevill fixed his quilt after getting out of bed.  The crime scene officers didn't take the bedding but rather left it there and during the cleanup that Jeremy wanted done it was destroyed. This is one of the things that was lousy police work, the crime scene officers should have taken all the bedding.  Because it was considered a murder suicide they didn't take all they should have but that is not really a valid excuse it is simply an explanation for their actions.  They looked for things that supported the murder suicide theory and that's pretty much it. 

[Caroline]

In all likelihood she was lying on the floor and was shot between the eyes to make sure she was dead. If she were standing it would mean she was running to her attacker which would be pretty strange. Furthermore if she were standing when shot it means she was shot in the initial burst and that Jeremy had 11 bullets in the gun.  While it is quite possible for him to have 11 shots in the gun her movements are hard to explain.  She walked around the bed to Nevill's side then back towards the door.  There is not that much room to walk and she would have had great difficulty walking through the killer so it is easier to think she walked to Nevill's side after the killer left the room or at least while the killer was in the doorway. So she would have to have run around the bed and then turned around and walk to the doorway with the killer aiming the gun at her head. Then have spun around after being shot. This seems unlikely. Much more likely is that she collapsed and was shot later while on the floor just to make sure she was dead. They didn't have any reconstruction experts go to the scene and didn't preserve enough for modern reconstructionists to work their craft well. They do a pretty amazing job today of piecing together the progression of events.

I personally still wonder whether June ended up jumping across the bed to Nevill's side and getting out of bed on Nevill's side and the blood trail simply was from her walking from his side towards the door as opposed to walking back and forth. The bedding was destroyed so there is no way to know. Unless Nevill was sleeping on the quilt the killer moved the quilt over the sheets later. It is not credible that Nevill fixed his quilt after getting out of bed.  The crime scene officers didn't take the bedding but rather left it there and during the cleanup that Jeremy wanted done it was destroyed. This is one of the things that was lousy police work, the crime scene officers should have taken all the bedding.  Because it was considered a murder suicide they didn't take all they should have but that is not really a valid excuse it is simply an explanation for their actions.  They looked for things that supported the murder suicide theory and that's pretty much it.

Perhaps she was trying to get to the other door that led through to the twins room - but something stopped her?

[maggie]

Perhaps she was trying to get to the other door that led through to the twins room - but something stopped her?

I would think the fact the door connected to the twins bedroom would have been her reason for being where she was found.  Some say she wasn't close to the twins but she seems to have been either returning or going to their room.

[Caroline]

I would think the fact the door connected to the twins bedroom would have been her reason for being where she was found.

Sorry Maggie, I wasn't talking about Sheila, I was talking about June. She may have been making for the door that led through to the twins room. If the killer was in the door way blocking her exit, she might have tried to get out another way but something stopped her - just a thought.

[maggie]

Sorry Maggie, I wasn't talking about Sheila, I was talking about June. She may have been making for the door that led through to the twins room. If the killer was in the door way blocking her exit, she might have tried to get out another way but something stopped her - just a thought.

That also makes sense.  Have just come in on this without reading the past posts.  Some people believe there was more than one killer?

[Caroline]

That also makes sense.  Have just come in on this without reading the past posts.  Some people believe there was more than one killer?

They do indeed 

[maggie]

They do indeed 

It is interesting that June was peppered with bullets apart from the shot dead centre between the eyes like an assassination ??  Like two different styles of working, if you'll excuse the expression

[Caroline]

It is interesting that June was peppered with bullets apart from the shot dead centre between the eyes like an assassination ??

It's certainly execution style.

[scipio_usmc]

It is interesting that June was peppered with bullets apart from the shot dead centre between the eyes like an assassination ??  Like two different styles of working, if you'll excuse the expression

The first shot was to her head but then she woke up and moved around making it harder to target her accurately. Even though people assume it is easy to target someone laying down it actually isn't as easy as you think.  Higher targets are easier to hit and moving targets are always a challenge. When Nevill stopped moving the killer was able to shoot him in the head "execution style".  When June stopped moving she was able to be shot between the eyes "execution style".  The boys were asleep so were able to be shot in the head "execution style".  June and Nevill woke up and moved unlike the boys hence why they were shot in multiple places beyond simply the head.