Author Topic: dr david fowler.  (Read 2725 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2015, 05:38:PM »
There are many posts discussing his claims and why his claims are invalid.  His claims were rejected by the CCRC.  The defense won't release the actual documents from the CCRC that rejects it so we can't see the reasoning in detail.  The defense doesn't want anyone to see just how pathetic their claims were so won't release either CCRC decision (there was an initial decision then the final one after the defense was able to respond to the initial.

The defense appealed the CCRC rejection to the Court of Appeals and the Court of Appeals affirmed the CCRC's rejection.  That decision provides a few clues as to why the CCRC rejected the claims.  The CCRC rejected the claims as unsubstantiated speculation. Furthermore:



So on top of being unsubstantiated speculation the above notes the CCRC noted the speculation didn't even deal with the evidence used at trial so didn't refute the evidence that the jury's decision was based on.

So Fowler ignored the fact that blood was not found in the rifle and had the moderator not been attached then the blood would have been in the rifle.  Fowler did nothing to deal with this problem he simply ignored it.

Moreover, Fowler failed to deal with the evidence of the fight in the kitchen which resulted in the moderator breaking the ceiling lamp and scratching the mantle thus getting paint on the moderator.

Here again is what Fowler's claims were and why such was rejected as unsubstantiated speculation:

Fowler's claim was that Vanezis, Fletcher and Hayward made several mistakes in relation to the non-fatal wound.  1) he says they failed to notice a muzzle imprint around the non-fatal wound. He says in his opinion they mistook a muzzle imprint as a bullet abrasion collar. Did he physically inspect the body?  No.  Were there any closeup photos that he could provide to the CCRC where he could point out a muzzle imprint could be seen?  No?  So where did his claim come from then?   He decided that Vanezis' description sounds to him like Vanezis saw a muzzle imprint even though Vanezis clearly believed he didn't find any muzzle imprint. 

He noted Vanezis described the wound as follows:

"The lower wound was situated on the right side of the neck, 2" below the upper wound and slightly more later. It measured 1/4" in diameter, had slight bruising at the edges as well as apparent residue marks.  The surrounding skin area was also bruised."

What Vanezis et al said was being described was a bullet abrasion collar(surrounding skin to the entrance wound bruised) and stippling and sooting around the wound (residue marks) 

But Fowler declared the above sounds to him like Vanezis was describing a muzzle imprint and in his opinion the imprint is consistent with the rifle muzzle sans moderator.

So he speculated:

a) that Vanezis observed a muzzle imprint though Vanezis didn't ever claim such and clearly didn't believe he saw a muzzle imprint of any kind.

b) speculated the pattern could only match the rifle sans moderator though he had no measurements to go by for the size of the so called muzzle imprint since Vanezis didn't provide any measurements for a muzzle imprint because he observed no muzzle imprint.

2) By implication he was asserting the experts were all wrong about it being a near contact wound.  The only way for there to be a muzzle imprint  is if there is a hard contact wound.  The experts didn't find the wound to be a contact wound but rather a near contact wound.  They relied on several things to make such finding including the stippling and sooting around the wound.  Fowler doesn't deal with any of this he just speculates they were all wrong and that it must have actually have been a hard contact wound.

Vanezis felt he observed a near contact wound with a bullet abrasion collar.  The prosecution's lab experts agreed.  Fowler decided that the description provided of the collar sounds to him like a muzzle imprint and one that would match the rifle muzzle sans moderator but had zero evidence to substantiate it was a muzzle imprint and that Vanezis et al were wrong about it being a bullet abrasion collar.  He had no proof that it was a hard contact wound and that they were wrong in their assessment it was a near contact wound.  It was just unsupported speculation on his part.   

The bottom line is that he speculated Vanezis commited an error and failed to recognize there was a muzzle imprint, speculated the muzzle imprint was consistent with the rifle sans moderator and completely ignored the problems of the lack of blood in the rifle and problems of blood and paint being found on/in the moderator.

If the non-fatal wound were a hard contact wound fired sans moderator then this wound would have resulted in blood getting inside the rifle so both wounds to Sheila would have deposited blood inside the rifle not just the second if his claims were true.

Given that the CCRC rejected his claims and that we can see how his claims were totally unsubstantiated and as the Court of Appeals put it failed to grapple with the blood and paint evidence one has to wonder why Jeremy supporters keep bringing him up. 

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline nugnug

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2015, 05:54:PM »
well it is cliamed to peer reviews back up what he says.

he probely dident deal with it becouse that wasnt what he was aked to deal with.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2015, 06:38:PM »
well it is cliamed to peer reviews back up what he says.

he probely dident deal with it becouse that wasnt what he was aked to deal with.

Two people agreeing with such speculation amounts to them making the same speculation merely.  They need to offer proof that the wound was a hard contact wound, proof that a muzzle imprint was around such wound and then deal with the lack of blood in the rifle which would be present had the rifle sans moderator been used to fire 2 contact shots into her.

They didn't examine the body so can't contradict the experts on the basis of having observed something directly that the experts missed.

They don't have any photos that show any traits which they can point to which establish a muzzle imprint existed or that the wound was a contact wound.

All they have is the limited description which they decided sounds to them like a muzzle imprint and sounds to them like a muzzle imprint that would be made by the rifle sans moderator even thought hat is not what Vanezis felt he saw and didn't feel he was describing.

It would be like you telling everyone you saw a white guy steal a purse from a woman but Adam saying from your description it sounds like you made a mistake and were actually describing a black person.  To actually establish you got the color of the perpetrator wrong would require real evidence.  Saying your description sounds to Adam like the person was black when you clear stated you were describing a white person would not amount to evidence.  If Adam produced evidence that the victim and/or other witnesses said the perp was black not white that in contrast would be evidence to suggest you had been wrong. 

Fowler didn't produce any evidence he simply said it sounds to him like Vanezis observed something different than Vanezis thought he observed. In the real World that amounts to zilch.

         

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Adam

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2015, 09:00:AM »
Love the differences in Nugs and Scipio's posts. Variety.

Decades after the event, Jeremy's lawyers can hire lots of  experts. The ones that support the conviction will be discarded. The ones who cast doubt will be publicised and used.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 09:03:AM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline nugnug

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2015, 11:02:AM »
Two people agreeing with such speculation amounts to them making the same speculation merely.  They need to offer proof that the wound was a hard contact wound, proof that a muzzle imprint was around such wound and then deal with the lack of blood in the rifle which would be present had the rifle sans moderator been used to fire 2 contact shots into her.

They didn't examine the body so can't contradict the experts on the basis of having observed something directly that the experts missed.

They don't have any photos that show any traits which they can point to which establish a muzzle imprint existed or that the wound was a contact wound.

All they have is the limited description which they decided sounds to them like a muzzle imprint and sounds to them like a muzzle imprint that would be made by the rifle sans moderator even thought hat is not what Vanezis felt he saw and didn't feel he was describing.

It would be like you telling everyone you saw a white guy steal a purse from a woman but Adam saying from your description it sounds like you made a mistake and were actually describing a black person.  To actually establish you got the color of the perpetrator wrong would require real evidence.  Saying your description sounds to Adam like the person was black when you clear stated you were describing a white person would not amount to evidence.  If Adam produced evidence that the victim and/or other witnesses said the perp was black not white that in contrast would be evidence to suggest you had been wrong. 

Fowler didn't produce any evidence he simply said it sounds to him like Vanezis observed something different than Vanezis thought he observed. In the real World that amounts to zilch.

       

as  of his peers agrea ith him its a bit more than speulation.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2015, 04:16:PM »
as  of his peers agrea ith him its a bit more than speulation.

Not in the real world.  In the real world it amounts to 3 people speculating without a shred of evidence to support their contentions and not dealing with things that need to be dealt with.

 
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Offline nugnug

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2015, 06:15:PM »
no there 3 expert opionions thats a bit more than just speculation.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2015, 06:30:PM »
no there 3 expert opionions thats a bit more than just speculation.

Their opinions are not based on any evidence so it is rank speculation. 

They had zero evidence to establish that Vanezis observed a muzzle imprint.  Vanezis said he didn't observe such.  Photos of the wounds don't show any muzzle imprint.  The wound was determined to be a near contact wound which would not produce a muzzle imprint you need a hard contact wound to get a muzzle imprint.  What evidence did they have to establish it wasn't a hard contact wound?  None, they presented the circular argument that they think Vanezis observed a muzzle imprint and therefor the wound must have been a hard contact wound.

They then compounded this with more speculation saying they think the muzzle imprint that they can't even establish existed was made by the gun sans moderator.     

This is unsupported speculation to anyone who has half a brain. 

They have NOTHING at all to support their contention that the non-fatal wound was a hard contact wound.  The evidence is against them because if it were a nonfatal wound then it would have resulted in drawback like the fatal wound did.   That means 2 different wounds would have deposited Sheila's blood in the weapon if the shots had been fired without the moderator attached.  None of them offered any evidence of any kind to explain why such blood was not found in the weapon.

They all ignored that Vanezis assessed the non-fatal wound to be a near contact wound.  They ignored that Vanezis didn't observe a muzzle imprint and effectively claimed he was wrong that there was a muzzle imprint though they didn't see the body and found no evidence of any muzzle imprint in any photos. 

Do you actually have anything substantive to add or are you just going to keep repeating the same broken record nonsense that demonstrate you don't have any understand of the concepts of proof and evidence whatsoever.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline David1819

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2015, 06:39:PM »
well it is cliamed to peer reviews back up what he says.

he probely dident deal with it becouse that wasnt what he was aked to deal with.

Iv mentioned this before to Scipio about Dr Fowler. He will find every excuse and reason to criticise an expert opinion or source yet has the audacity to use expert opinion and sources when it suits him.

Don't waste your time arguing with him its pointless.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2015, 06:53:PM »
Iv mentioned this before to Scipio about Dr Fowler. He will find every excuse and reason to criticise an expert opinion or source yet has the audacity to use expert opinion and sources when it suits him.

Don't waste your time arguing with him its pointless.

I approach the issue rationally while you are too biased to do so.  To rational objective people rank speculation amounts to nothing. 

They have no evidence the wound was a hard contact wound, no evidence that it thus produced a muzzle imprint and thus no evidence that there was a muzzle imprint consistent with the rifle barrel sans moderator. 

Rational people recognize that in order for an expert to assess whether a wound is a hard contact wound or not one has to have either: 1) examined the wound in person, 2) seen very good photos showing the attributes that would relate whether the wound was a contact wound; or 3) to have very detailed information from someone who examined the wound. 

Similarly, in order to determine there was a muzzle imprint an expert would need to have: 1) examined the wound in person and observed the muzzle imprint, 2) seen very good photos showing the muzzle imprint which the expert can then explain which attributes in the photo are the muzzle imprint and how the expert can be sure it is an actual searing of the skin from the muzzle and not simply soot, blood or stippling; or 3) to have very detailed information from someone who examined the wound and determined there was a muzzle imprint.

Does Fowler have any of these?  NO!

Fowler didn't examine the wounds in person.

Fowler didn't produce any photos which demonstrates any muzzle imprint.

Fowler didn't produce any detailed information from anyone who examined the wounds who detailed finding a muzzle imprint. 

Fowler took Vanezis' claims that he didn't see a muzzle imprint and said Vanezis was wrong.  What basis does he have to say Vanezis was wrong in light of not examining the body himself or finding any evidence in photos of a muzzle imprint?  None!

The CCRC and Courts rejected the rank speculation form Fowler for the very reasons I mention.  You are ignoring such  and not dealing with any of the problems with their claims because you are biased and irrational.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline nugnug

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2015, 09:40:PM »
of course we are irationol do you think a rational person would bother talking to you.

Offline Alias

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2015, 09:53:PM »
of course we are irationol do you think a rational person would bother talking to you.

You win! Remark of the year, what do you want, nugnug, you can ask anything!  ;D HAHAHA

Offline David1819

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2015, 09:58:PM »
I approach the issue rationally while you are too biased to do so.

That is your opinion

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: dr david fowler.
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2015, 03:27:AM »
That is your opinion

Well anyone looking at this debate can see I actually looked in detail at the issues in full including looking at whether Fowler could actually back up his claims with evidence while you didn't.  Rational people require an expert to be able to explain in detail how and why their claims are correct and to prove it.  That is what is required in court.  An expert doesn't just render an opinion and that's it. The expert must prove the opinion is true using reliable evidence.

The CCRC ripped the claims apart and the Court of Appeals affirmed such action. I explained why they were ripped apart. You have offered nothing at all to rebut the arguments.  To not be able to refute arguments and yet to refuse to face them anyway amounts to irrational behavior.


 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry