Author Topic: 13 bullet cases in m/bedroom, yet no follower plate mark found on them...  (Read 51677 times)

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Offline mike tesko

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'Z' stating that shortly after change of direction in the investigation, only 345 eley rounds, 5 short because they were used to undermine Jeremys account about loading the gun and unloading it...

Cyclops members checking database, trying to verify what 'Z' has relayed to us this morning. Thus far, it has been confirmed thay (1) - relatives had in thier possession 350 Eley bullets on 11 September,  which Ann Eaton handed over to police that very same day, along with (a) a parker hale sound moderator, and (b) a telescopic site belonging to the anshulzt rifle...

'Z' informs us all, that (a) parker hale silencer, and (b) telescopic site, both not present in gun cupboard on morning of 7 August, when police looked into the aforementioned cupboard, and searched it 'THAT' morning...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 05:23:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Checks currently being made back in the UK, to verify that 5 rounds went missing from the original batch of 350 Eley rounds handed to police by Ann Eaton, on 11 September 1985 - a response expected this evening...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 05:30:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Checks currently being made back in the UK, to verify that 5 rounds went missing from the original batch of 350 Eley rounds handed to police by Ann Eaton, on 11 September 1985 - a response expected this evening...

Breaking news, Breaking news...

Cyclops team have confirmed that 5 rounds missing from batch of 350 rounds of Eley ammunition - only 345 rounds, 5 rounds missing, and unaccounted for...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 09:18:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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I love how more than a day later you edit your post to instead of bothering to make a new one to try to slide under the radar.

"The explanation for the change to DB/1 and then DRB/1 and reasons for the changes are well supported"

no, Suspicious, I would say, because it should never happen, its not a good enough reason, to change any exhibit reference, or lab' item number... totally innocent.

The lab number to the moderator wasn't changed that is just another of your lies.  Cook made an error on a single Holab form that he was writing 3 copies of.  On one copiy he screwed up and wrote 23 instead of 22.  The lab either never noticed the error or ignored it and used the correct number (22) on all their paperwork. So you keep lying to pretend there was a change that never happened. That makes you a lying joke.   

Jones didn't know who found the moderator so he and Cook agreed to simply use his initials at the outset.  Upon learning it was Boutflour and other items were also found by Boutflour and had been collected the items were all re-labeled DB/1-4.  After finding out that David Bird already was using this they changed them to DRB/1-4.  Nothing sinister or wrong occurred.  That you choose not to accept the explanation given is your problem, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.  You can't prove anything sinister or wrong occurred and proving it is what would amount to something.   

While you can't prove the police did anything wrong you lie regularly about seeing photos that don't exist, meeting informants who don't exist, lie about being part of a group working on Jeremy's defense though Jeremy kicked you to the curb...  You are seeking attention and desperately want to pretend you are still in the loop so Jeremy supporters will admire you and give deference to you. It is quite sad that you can't find something more worthwhile to do with your life than lie to garner attention from Jeremy supporters.

"Your lies are just that lies and worse make no sense."

So, says you, but there is absolutely nothing you have had to say that I can't respond to, and the reason for that is because what I am saying is the truth, as compared to what you say all the time, which is repetitive

Your responses try to change the subject as opposed to dealing with the evidence and points I raise.  You have zero ability to establish your claims make any sense.  You have zero evidence to establish any of your allegations are true.  You never offer any evidence you just claim you have seen evidence.  Anytime you mess up and cite something posted on this site as evidence so we can go see if it states what you claim it invariably says the opposite of what you claim.  Cook's COLP statement says he marked the moderator SBJ/1 not SJ/1 like you asserted.  I posted the relevant portion of his statement proving it.  You failed to respond by posting a section where he stated he marked SJ/1 on a label because there is no such thing in his statement.  Instead you just ignored the evidence I posted and restated your unsupported lie. Bragging about being able to respond to anything I post by restating your lies is quite pathetic.  What would mean something would be if you could respond with evidence proving me wrong and your claims true but that you can't do.  Since you have no actual evidence you lie claiming you have evidence but that you choose not to post it.   If you had the evidence you claim you would post it and unless and until you do post evidence there is no reason to believe a single thing you state because you lied too often in the past and now find yourself in the same situation as "the boy who cried wolf".

"Far from having any evidence to support wrongdoing you just have totally unsupported allegations which are refuted by the evidence"

not true, everything I have spoken about is supported by the contents contained in official logs, records, statements and photographs

Your claims are always refuted by the statements and evidence. You falsely asserted Cook's COLP statement indicated be put a label on the moderator marked SJ/1.  Cook's COLP statement states he labeled the moderator SBJ/1 and the Holab forms he filled out the same day also state SBJ/1.  I posted snapshots of these documents proving your claims false.

Jeremy said he didn't see AP's rifle at WHF after he left.  AP says he took it home with him after he left.  The family said they didn't find his weapon there when police turned over the house to them.  The police didn't report finding or taking his weapon from WHF.  On those occasions when AP did store his rifle at WHF he took the bolt home with him so no one could use his rifle in his absence. The ballistic expert matched all 25 casings used in the murders to Nevill's Anschutz rifle.  You ignore all of this and insist AP's gun was present at the time of the murders and used.  You are not following evidence you are ignoring it.

Eaton and the Boutflours say the moderator was found August 10, and turned over to police on August 12.  Police say it was turned over to them August 12 and examined in the lab for the first time on August 13.  There is no documentation to counter any of this.  You ignore the statements and evidence and made up that Ann Eaton gave the moderator to police on September 11. 

I can go on and on and on listing claims you make that are not supported by the statements and evidence from the case file but rather refuted by such evidence. 

"make no sense"
do make sense

You failed miserably as establishing any sense to your allegations they are all absurd including your ridiculous assertion that Nevill purchased 500 rounds of a different variety of .22 caliber ammunition than his rifle used.  How would it make sense to buy a different variety of ammunition than that used by his rifle?  You claim the gun seller lied about selling him 22LR ammunition for his rifle chambered in 22LR and instead sold him something else. This is just plain absurd.  Your other claims make just as little sense.  Whenever it is pointed out that your claims make no sense and why they make no sense you don't follow up by providing some logical explanation you simply assert you feel the claims make sense.  You can't prove they make sense or how you just make the unsupported claim they do make sense.

"and you even add lies like that it was originally labeled SJ/1"

every time you use the words, liar, or lies, I substitute it with truthteller, and truth the source you claim states that states no such thing. I choose to accept that it does

What you are effectively saying here is that you choose to ignore what the sources actually state and choose to believe they state something else.  It is much like propagandists who say the truth is what people subjectively perceive it to be as opposed to what it objectively is.  So if people believe the world is flat than it is flat even though it is really round. These kinds of games might intrigue someone who likes psychology but it doesn't intrigue someone like me who is driven by objective reason and facts.

"It wasn't referred to by two different numbers. It was always 22. The lab only referred to it as 22  The police had to hand write 3 copies of the Holab forms, they didn't use photo copy machines.  Cook screwed up and wrote 23 on 1 of the 3 copies. The forms were identical except on one the numbers jumped from "21" to "23" while the numbers on the others read "21" and then "22"."

Hogwash, you baffoon, of course it was, lab' item 22 and then 23, renumbered 22 on 17 November 1985.
Ha, ha, ha, what a complete load of bullshit, your brain dead pal, and nuts to boot by accident while some accident, how do you explain there being no blood in the silencer (SJ\1) when he dismantled it on 29 August 1985?  the other copies correctly said 22 DRB\1 was neither originally, lab' item number, 22, or 23...

The exact dates the remaining blood int he moderator was remove dis unclear because you won't post all the records that detail such.  The section of the Dickinson report, trial testimony, the COLP report and anything else that details such you don't post.  You post unsupported lies and say that since we don't have the documents we can't disprove your lies.  The burden though is on you to provide evidence to prove your claims but you cannot because you claims are all made up lies.

You lied about Cook labeling it SJ/1 and lied about it being referred to as number 23 by the lab they referred to it at all times as 22 th eONLY document marked 23 was one of 3 copies that had a clerical error.  You have no documents to establish otherwise and no documents to establish any moderator was ever submitted to the lab for the examination as DB/1 let alone DRB/1.  The designations were changed after the lab found and removed the significant evidence.

You spend your time looking for clerical errors and inconsistencies you can weave giant fairy tales around.  In the process you render yourself a laughing stock.  Your so called friends don't care enough about you to be honest.  They write off most of your claims as insane or unable to be understood so either don't respond to your posts or just respond to humor you.  Convincing others you are a nut just renders yourself totally irrelevant- so you are achieving the exact opposite of what you want to achieve. 

Maybe one day you will wake up and smell the coffee and recognize it.       

"He admitted in his COLP interview that he made a clerical error"

Oh he made an error, alright, a blundering one. One that will eventually come back to haunt him, and the others involved in perverting the course of justice

COLP was aware of the error since 1991.  They dismissed the error as a clerical error in their report.  The defense lawyers could not even craft a submission around it for the CCRC. It's 24 years later already.  You sound like Charlie Brown talking about the Great Pumpkin coming some future year.

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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Through speaking with Jeremy on many occasions, I learned that it was a habit of Ralph Bamber not to go to bed, but he would relax in the lounge, or upstairs office. Often fall a sleep there, and evidence that he had been drinking close by...

'Z' returning to UK tomorrow,  Cyclops members returning home Friday, myself due back in UK Sunday afternoon...
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 09:28:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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We have been left with new leads to pursue in the Quest for justice on Jeremys part - the batch of crime scene was unterfered with, by using 5 of the 350 rounds of Eley ammunition...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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"If 2 moderators had been handed in that day then ALL three copies would have had numbers 22 and 23 listed instead of 22 on two of them and 23 on the third which indicates a clerical error."

So, says you

So says COLP, so says Cook and so says common sense.  You ignore the evidence and common sense to press the claim because you have nothing legitimate to raise.

"There was no mention of these things because they didn't happen  - these are all fictional claims you made up"

didn't happen the way you said, I uncovered and established otherwise.

You have not established any of your claims with evidence you just make wild allegations that the accounts contained it the documents and asserted by the police are false.  Making allegations doesn't establish anything except that you decided to make allegations.

"You have no evidentiary basis to assert any of these things happened. While there is evidence of the changes in the designation from SBJ/1 to DB/1 to DRB/1 and evidence of the clerical error by Cook there is no evidence to support any of these wild allegations. They are made up from thin air."

just like the circumstantial evidence concocted and used to help them to prosecute and convict him as the murderer

While your claims are made up from thin air and have no evidentiary basis the prosecutor's claims were well supported by the physical evidence, assessments of those who analyzed the evidence and witnesses testimony.

"There is zero evidence that Jones collected any items into evidence from WHF let alone collected a moderator."
Yes, there is, Jones was a crooked copper on the day of the murders he went back to whf from Jeremy's cottage, and took possession of  four exhibits, absolutely true and accurate

You have zero evidence that he took anything from WHF let alone a moderator.  Your bare bones claim is not proof or evidence.  You made the claim up plain and simple.   

"There is zero evidence that there were any moderators at WHF during or after the murders to be collected into evidence by police  the evidence establishes only Nevill's moderator was present."
not true[/quote]

Saying not true and insisting another moderator was there (despite the testimony of all involved saying only Nevill's was present and testimony of finding only Nevill's at WHF) is not proof and doesn't establish an evidentiary basis to assert more than 1 was present during the murders.   

"There is zero evidence to establish Boutflour called police on the 10th to indicate he had a moderator and that it was picked up the next day from Ann Eaton. The evidence establishes the police were notified in August and it was picked up on August 12."

you are not reporting the circumstances accurately Phone messages were recorded regarding David Boutflour contacting Essex police on 10th September informing police that he had found the gun silencer, his sister handed exhibits over to police on the following day the 11th September 1985, as compared against the date, 12August her husband Peter handed over the other silencer to DS Jones .

There was no recorded phone call in evidence this is just another of your made up claims. Boutflour said there was only 1 moderator and it was turned in in August.  Ann Eaton said there was only 1 moderator and it was turned in in August she said and wrote that she handed over the scope and bullets on September 11 not a moderator.  The police who collected the items on September 11 said he collected the scope and bullets.  A made up phone call recording doesn't trump  the actual evidence which consists of written statements and transcripts of verbal testimony.

The only calls recorded were those to the HQ information room which could be reached by the public only by dialing 999 and Boutflour didn't dial 999 to ask police to pick up anything.   So that alone proves you made up the claim of a taped phone call from Boutflour. Your claim that you are in contact with a cop and this cop told you such a recording existed is not evidence but rather another unsupported allegation and one that defies all belief.  The only way anyone would believe such a fantastic tale would be if you could produce an actual tape recording.

"The moderator that was fingerprinted is the moderator turned in by the family on August 12 which the lab analyzed on August 13 which resulted in the the lab notifying police on Aug 14 they had found human blood on/in the moderator and paint on the knurled tip. This is what evidence proves happened."

no, it does not. All it proves is that this blood on that silencer (SJ\1) was not the Bamber family owned silencer, it was a different silencer belonging to one of the relatives

You failed miserably at proving any moderator was marked SJ/1 your own source unambiguously stated he labeled it SBJ/1.  Moreover, you have zero evidence that the family turned over a moderator owned by them this is just an unsupported allegation you make and a stupid allegation at that.

Here are your allegations in a nutshell:

The family planted blood in one of their own moderators and turned it in to police on August 12 claiming it was Nevill's moderator and that they found it at WHF.  The family had Nevill's moderator but chose not to plant the blood in that one and hand it in. Then in September they decided to plant more blood in Nevill's moderator and told police they found Nevill's moderator and the first one they handed in must not have been his.  So on top of having no evidence to support any of your claims, your claims are ABSURD. 

"You have ZERO evidence to support your allegations
Don't count on it . 

"You take things made up, admit there is no evidence to support your allegations by admitting there is no mention anywhere of these things you made up happening then ridiculously say you proved they happened.  You reside in bozo land."

there is evidence.  How long have you yourself lived there?

Your response is a perfect example- you never produce any evidence you just claim you have evidence and your bare bones claim you have evidence is supposed to suffice.   

"DB/1 and DRB/1 are the same moderator."

no, they are not

You have Zero evidence to prove otherwise. The first references on any documents to DRB/1 are documents from November.  DB/1 was crossed out and changed to DRB/1 on various documents and the statements of people secured in mid to late November referred to the moderator as DRB/1 and were identifying the moderator handed in by the family in August which had been SBJ/1 at the time.

You never produce any evidence to prove otherwise you just make unsupported claims that police and the family were lying. 

"There wasn't any moderator under lab item number 23"
so says you .

No, so says the lab personnel, the police, the various lab documents and the COLP report.


"The lab never even noticed 1 of the forms said 23"

yes, they did they used 22 for the moderator and 23, then they reverted it back to 22 .

Post evidence then.  The evidence shows they used 22 at all times and the only document that mentioned 23 was the Holab form dated Aug 13 with the clerical error.  making up that there is evidence doesn't help because when you make evidence up you can't produce it.   

"David Bird was taking photos not collecting evidence he had no ability to take any physical items into evidence."

that was not what I ever said had been the case, it was Jeremy who once believed that the exhibit reference DB\1 referred to an exhibit found by PC Bird I never truly believed PC Bird took possession of one of the silencers

That's even worse because it means you are asserting police simultaneously used two different prefixes for David Boutflour.  You suggest they knowingly used David Bird's prefix for 1 moderator and then DRB for another.  This makes no sense at all.  Your claims get more convoluted and senseless each time you tweak them.  This results in people not even understanding your claims.

Surely you are intelligent enough to recognize most people do not respond to your threads, your threads mostly have you posting to yourself.  Numerous people said they don't understand most of your posts. What good is it when most people can't understand your posts and the only ones who do and will respond to you refute them?  Logic would suggest you would at least want people to understand your posts since you seek attention and will get none if people can't even understand you.  It is bad enough you make unsupported claims but you don't even make them in a straightforward manner that people can follow.  Try putting your allegations together in a single post where you explain everything in a way that can be followed and has some kind of semblance.  Yeah I know you don't have to take orders and can do anything you want...

Well if you keep going doing what you are doing then 99% of the people here will have no idea what you are talking about and you are accomplishing none of your intended goals.

"You keep ignoring that the SOLE Holab form which called the moderator 23 was a carbon copy of the other Holab forms EXCEPT had a 23 next to the moderator instead of 22."

no, it wasn't  no it didn't, the number 22 on the top copyholabny holab form, could not possibly manifest itself as number 23 on either the 1st copy, or the second one, what a load of hogwash you are seeking to promote...

You are the one promoting nonsense.  COLP produced the Holab forms to Cook and questioned him about them.  The sole difference between the forms was two copies listed "22" as the lab reference while the other listed "23".  The forms were identical in all other regards.  Cook responded that he made  a clerical error on one of the forms.       

"Other items were sent to the lab with the moderator and these "other items" were the same on all three of the Holab forms."

it gets worse, now not only had the police altered exhibit references, and lab item numbers, but now police have also been tampering with holab forms, my god

All that has been established is that Cook made a clerical error on one of the forms.  Your wild claims are not supported by any evidence.   

"ALL 3 forms were dated August 13. So if they were 2 different moderators they would have been handed in together August 13 but they weren't. 

So, somebody deliberately altered one of the copies of the holab forms. You wouldn't happen to know which of the two copies were interferred with, was it the first copy or the second? one was handed to police on 12 August 1985, by Peter Eaton, the other handed to police by Annie Eaton on the 11th September

None were interfered with.  In making up your claims you totally ignore logic.

The ONLY Holab form that exists which refers to a moderator as lab reference number 23 is dated August 13, 1985.

Such form refers to it as SBJ/1 and the other exhibits on the SAME form were:

18           DRH/15           .22 ANSHOLT Rifle Serial#13740   On body of Sheila Jean Caffell Aug 7, 1985

19           ND/3               Nightdress                                     Taken from body of Sheila Jean Caffell

20           ND/10             Carpet Sample                               Carpet in upstairs front bedroom

21           ND/11             Carpet Sample                               Carpet in upstairs front bedroom

All 3 copies of the Holab form were the same up to this point

the final line on 2 copies read:

22           SBJ/1              Silencer                                           Gun cupboard

the final line on the last copy read:

23           SBJ/1              Silencer                                           Gun cupboard


You are asserting the date on one of the forms was altered and actually was sent to the lab in September.  In September they again sent the SAME EXACT ITEMS they had sent with the first moderator except this time with a second moderator? 

If a moderator had been collected in September with the scope and bullets then it would have been conveyed to the lab with the scope and bullets not with items sent to the lab in August.  Where do you come up with such stupid claims?  you don't think them through at all which is part of the reason why most people here can't even follow what you are claiming.

"Further all 3 say SBJ/1 as the exhibit reference further demonstrating it was just a clerical error."

 the exhibit reference first given to the silencer in Cooks possession was earmarked SJ\1, not SBJ\1...

This lie is not helping you.  Cook stated in his statement he labeled it SBJ/1 and wrote SBJ/1 on the Holab form he said he learned Stan Jones' middle initial before writing up the paperwork and label because he ended up including it on the label and forms. 





"The forms doesn't permit asserting they were different but even if one ignores reality and asserts 2 were handed in that still means they had to be handed in on the 13th.  You have no Holab forms listing an item 23 handed in to the lab in September.  The only Holab form that says 23 on it is dated August 13 and is one of the 3 copies of this:"

No, it does not, two were taken from the scene by relatives on 10 August but only one of these was handed to police by Peter Eaton on 12 the August 1985, the other was handed back to Jeremy after he complained to police that his relatives were stealing possessions from whf.

This is a perfect example of how you have no evidentiary basis for your claims.  The evidence being cited is that one Holab form was different from the other 2.  How does a document asserting lab reference 23  SBJ/1 sent to the lab on Aug 13 support a moderator handed in on September 11?  The obvious answer is it doesn't.  You ignore the evidence and just make up things that have nothing to do with the evidence you are complaining about.       

You have zero evidence of 2 moderators being collected by the family at WHF, zero evidence of the family handing in a second in September and zero evidence of a moderator being returned to Jeremy.  Everytime I think you can't some up with a claim more stupid than your previous claims you manage to prove me wrong.  Jeremy doesn't claim he was given a moderator back by police.  What do you think is to gain by making that up?  I don't understand you at all.   


"Quite clearly nothing labeled DB/1 was submitted to the lab on Aug 13 for testing.  SBJ/1 was submitted and on one form Cook screwed up and accidentally wrote 23 instead of 22 but the lab ignored the error and solely referred to it in their records as 22.  You stupidly assert that item 23 was the lab designation for the moderator handed to them on Aug 13, though they write 22 all over their records that it was known as DB/1 at the time, though all their records say SBJ/1 and that in early September a different moderator known as DRB/1 was submitted and given lab reference number 22 even though it would have to have a reference number LATER than 23 if the one received in August had been labeled 23 and even though you have zilch to establish the police or lab ever called anything DRB/1 in September"

you are the stupid one, not me. The silencer taken to the lab' by Cook on 13 August 1985, (SJ\1)  was originally lab' item no. 22, What happened was that in late August another parker hale silencer belonging to one of the relatives was handed to police. This is the silencer which ended up having the exhibit reference DB\1, lab' item number 23. At this stage, late August 1985, the situation was that police still had silencer SJ\1 (22) in their possession, whilst the second silencer belonging to one of the relatives (DB\1 -23) was sent along to the lab' on 30th August 1985. This enabled Cook to dismantle silencer SJ\1 (22) on 29th August, rebuilt and screwed onto the barrel of the rifle..

the silencer which later became DRB\1 was not originally given that exhibit reference of DRB\1 on the day it was handed over to police by Ann Eaton in 11 September 1985, it was originally known as AE\1, then altered to CAE\1, until it was subsequently changed into DRB\1. It was after this that steps were taken to merge all these different silencers together as the same one. Fletcher altered all the lab controlled documents, whilst PI Miller performed the same duties involving police records and witness statements, where they got rid of all references to silencer SJ\1, thereafter proceeding on the basis that silencer SBJ\1 was the first silencer handed to police? by Peter Eaton on the 12 August 1985. They attempted to imply that the silencer (DB\1 - 23) had been the silencer handed to police by Ann Eaton on 11 September, thereby being capable if being the silencer (DB\1 - 23) inside which was the one inside which was found the key blood evidence. But, it started to become something of a ougs ear trying to match up all of these different silencers as being one and the same. It was hard enough trying to fabricate a time line in which all these different silencers had to be merged into the same silencer, but altering all the records only appeared to make matters worse. There were three different occasions when a silencer had been sent to the lab durunfg this investigation, 13 August, 30 August, and 20September - this was where those involved in the conspiracy and a basic error...

This is all sheer fiction.  You have no support for any of this it is all simply made up.  The only document with 23 on it for the moderator was the third copy of the August 13 Holab for containing what Cook admitted was a clerical error.  You have no documents which show an item 23 sent on any other date and no documents demonstrating any reference to DB/1 prior to the change of SBJ/1 to DB/1.  Your claim of a SJ/1 is fictional as proved by looking at Cook's COLP statement. 

In this very post you made 3 mutually exclusive scenarios about the moderator.  In one allegation you claim Jeremy was given his moderator back in another you claimed the family found 2 moderators at WHF.  In this last version police took a moderator from WHF, the family substituted their own moderators not once but twice!.  You claim they gave one of their moderators in and then gave in a second both times claiming it was the moderator from the Anschutz- yeah that makes a lot of sense...   A few months ago debating me you claims there were only 2 moderators not 3 and that one was originally SJ/1 while the other was SBJ/1 and one was changed to DB/1 while the other was changed to DRB/1. Your claims are not only unsupported you keep making up different things each time you type- you can't even stay consistent within the same post.  When you are challenged to post evidence you can't and just claim you have evidence that you choose not to post or make up nonsense of secret informants and photos which you have seen but were destroyed or tape recordings that you can't produce...  Someone reading this for the first time would think your walls need to be padded...

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Some of Mike's blasts from the past:

"Subject: Stan Jones statement, confirming he took possession of moderator at scene...

At long last, the piece of evidence that is guaranteed to shake the safety of these convictions, a witness statement in which one of the key witnesses admits to re-attending the scene on the morning of the shootings to recover one of the sound moderators,which could not be the same moderator found three days later by relatives...

YIPPEEEEEEEEEEEEE...."


Did Mike ever produce such statement- no he made it up.

From that thread:

"Re: Stan Jones statement, confirming he took possession of moderator at scene...
« Reply #77 on: September 02, 2014, 09:36:PM »

This is what we now know to be true regarding the silencer issue:-

(1) - silencer SBJ/1 cannot be the same as silencer SJ/1, or vice versa...

(2) - silencer DB/1 cannot have been the same silencer as silencer DRB/1, or vice versa...

(3) - silencers SJ/1 and DB/1 could be the same silencer, and vice versa...

(4) - silencer SBJ/1 and silencer DRB/1 could be the same silencer, or vice versa..."

----
In a post in a different thread around the same time Mike insisted SJ/1 was changed to DB/1 and SBJ/1 was changed to DRB/1.  He asserted there were only 2 moderators one taken by Jones and the other by the family.

His changing claims shows he had no actual evidence just unsupported theories that keep evolving in his mind.  That is all to clear in yet another post from his thread where he falsely claimed Stan Jones admitted in a statement that he seized a moderator:

"I am also open to the possibility that on the 13th August 1975, that Ron Cook took both silencers to the lab (SBJ/1 and SJ/1), and that human blood got detected on the top end of silencer SBJ/1. At this time, silencer SBJ/1 was allocated a lab item reference no. 22, whilst silencer SJ/1 was given a lab item no. 23..."

Being open to the possibility means one is not sure and just tossing out ideas...


Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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It is normal for anyone to change thier mind once new material cones to light or is brought to thier attention. If the jury had heard all the different versions of evidence which did not come to lught until long after the conclusion of the trial there is little doubt that the verdict would almost certainly have been very different. Any changing views I may have had from time to time, refleced new material and unformation which came to light from time to time, or from previously unknown sources. Therefore anything different I may have said, reprezented the state of play at a particular time. ..

"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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It is normal for anyone to change thier mind once new material cones to light or is brought to thier attention. If the jury had heard all the different versions of evidence which did not come to lught until long after the conclusion of the trial there is little doubt that the verdict would almost certainly have been very different. Any changing views I may have had from time to time, refleced new material and unformation which came to light from time to time, or from previously unknown sources. Therefore anything different I may have said, reprezented the state of play at a particular time. ..

Your allegations are not based on evidence though. You simply make up allegations from thin air such as the claim that Ann Eaton handed in a moderator on September 11.  There is nothing in the record to suggest such.  To support this fable you made up a recorded phone call from Boutflour telling police to go pick it up from Ann Eaton on the 11th.  In the meantime it makes zero sense for the family to turn in a moderator of theirs doctor it with blood and paint on Aug 12 and falsely insist it was found at WHF then a month later to take another of their moderators, doctor it with blood and again to insist it was found at WHF.  So your claims make no sense on top of having zero evidentiary support.

You are using the same Holab forms and other evidence that in the past you suggested indicated 2 moderators had been turned in and were renamed later not new evidence that surfaced since.  You are simply putting a new spin on them suggesting they indicate there were 3 or 4 moderators.  The COLP investigation disproved all your various spins of these documents.  You are trying to twist the COLP documents to your own end but it won't work.  You erroneously think that if the report is not in the public domain we won't be able to figure out what the documents actually demonstrate.  It is all a wasted effort on your part.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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Your allegations are not based on evidence though don't be so stupid of course what I've been saying is based upon evidence. What do you think the contents of various witness statements, the contents of official lab' and police records are, what do you think photographs are, and confoucting exhibit refences, and different lab' item numbers are? This material does not simply become evidence if ahd only if it suits your view of the case, it is evidence which any party is privy to seeing, knowing about, or who seeks to rely upon it, or any part of it... . You simply make up allegations from thin air I do not such as the claim that Ann Eaton handed in a moderator on September 11. She did, the fact that she had done is recorded in police owned documents, nso how can you or anybody say that these police documents do not amount to evidence, of course they do... There is nothing in the record to suggest such. nothing you have not yet seen perhaps, but truly such evidence does exist, and is mentioned in police owned and police controlled records To support this fable you made up a recorded phone call from Boutflour telling police to go pick it up from Ann Eaton on the 11th. I have never claimed any such thing, it is you who is now claiming I said that when I never have. What I may have said, because it is true, is that David Boutflour phoned up the police on either 10th / 11th September 1985, to tell them that he had found the sound moderator to the rifle. ANN Eaton handed a sound moderator to police on 11th September, which is confirmed by details being recorded on a Lab' submission of articles to the lab' form, dated 20th September 1985. In this document it makes mention of amongst other things the fact that the silencer in question is being sent along to the lab' to be checked for the presence of blood and fibers, now why would police be sending this particular silencer to the lab' on 20th September, to be checked for blood and fibers, if as we are being led to believe that on the 30th August 1985, another silencer bearing the identifying mark of DB/1 (23) had been present at the lab' ever since 30th August, and by which on the 12th September, key blood evidence in the form of a small flake had already been found inside it? Not only had the key flake of blood already been found inside silencer DB/1 (23) on 12th September 1985, but the other silencer handed over to police on 11th September was retained by police until 20th September, before they decided to forward it to the lab' to be checked. The facts speak for themselves, key blood group evidence was found inside one of the silencers (DB/1 - 23), before the other silencer was sent to the lab' by police on 20th September. Nobody in thier right mind could reliably maintain that both of these silencers, were one and the same.., In the meantime it makes zero sense for the family to turn in a moderator of theirs doctor it with blood there you go again, attributing things to me, when I have not said those things to you.and paint on Aug 12 and falsely insist it was found at WHF then a month later to take another of their moderators, doctor it with blood and again to insist it was found at WHF.the way you write about this matter it doesn't make sense, but the way I might choose to say it, makes positive sence  So your claims make no sense on top of having zero evidentiary support. as usual, you are talking hogwash

You are using the same Holab forms and other evidence that in the past you suggested indicated 2 moderators had been turned in and were renamed later not new evidence that surfaced since.  You are simply putting a new spin on them suggesting they indicate there were 3 or 4 moderators.  lets get the facts right, bozo - (1) -Ralph Bambers parker hale silencer, (2) - Anthony Pargeters parker hale silencer, (3) - Robert Woodwis Boutflours parker hale silencer, (4) - David Boutflours parker hale silencer (all these parker hale silencers were in police possession at one time or another, and lo and behold Essex police can't tell us which of these silencers were handed to them, or seized by them, as part of the first phase of the investigation under SC/688/85, or as the case may be, SC/786/85...

Instead, Essex police, relatives, and lab experts immorally suggest that all these different parker hale silencers were one and the same. But they were not all the same, they were 4 different ones, matching the 4 exhibit references, SJ/1,SBJ/1, DB/1 and DRB/1, all 4 sharing two lab' item reference numbers of 22 and 23..,
The COLP investigation disproved all your various spins of these documents. no, they did not, quite the opposite actuallyYou are trying to twist the COLP documents to your own end but it won't work.  You erroneously think that if the report is not in the public domain we won't be able to figure out what the documents actually it's beyond your control bozo... demonstrate.  It is all a wasted effort on your part. You don't know what your talking about, you can speculate all you want to
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 07:44:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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don't be so stupid of course what I've been saying is based upon evidence. What do you think the 1)contents of various witness statements, 2)the contents of official lab' and 3)police records are, 4)what do you think photographs are, and 5)confoucting exhibit refences, and 6)different lab' item numbers are? This material does not simply become evidence if ahd only if it suits your view of the case, it 7s evidence which any party is privy to seeing, knowing about, or who seeks to rely upon it, or any part of it...

1) The various witness statements reference one moderator handed in to police on July 12, 1985.  No witness statements provide any evidentiary support to the rubbish you post about Jones seizing a moderator from WHF or Ann Eaton handing in another moderator on September 11.

2) There are no lab records detailing any moderators seized from WHF on August 7 by police or handed in by Ann Eaton on September 11.  Lab records detail a single moderator being examined and it is the moderator the statements all say was taken from Peter Eaton on the 12th of August.

3) There are no police records detailing any moderators seized from WHF on August 7 by police or handed in by Ann Eaton on September 11.  Police records detail a single moderator being taken from Peter Eaton on the 12th of August.

4) There are no photographs detailing multiple moderators let alone photos asserting police seized 1 on the day of the murders and other photos stating one was taken from Ann Eaton on September 11.  The only way photos could state such is if they had writing on the back but there are no such photos.

5) The prefix changes have been innocently explained.  At the time Jones turned it over to Cook he didn't know who found the moderator so it was simply given his initials SBJ.  In September after interviewing the family they found out it was found by David Boutflour so at that time it was changed to DB/1 and the lab was notified of the change. At the same time the scope was named DB/2, the bullets DB/3 and the shotgun shells DB/4. Later they realized David Bird was using DB and thus there were already exhibits with the same designations so they renamed the Boutflour exhibits DRB.  They HAD TO change them because there was no way to have two sets of DB exhibits in the same case it would be too confusing.  You ignore the evidence and ridiculously assert DB/1 and 2 had to be 2 different moderators.  You don't similarly assert there were 2 scopes, two sets of bullets, two sets of shotgun shells.  So you ignore the changes of the other items to suit your agenda and this cherry picking shows you are not being sincere but rather just pushing your agenda.  The evidenc eproves beyond all question the change from the references from DB to DRB was innocent and necessary.  You have produced ZILCH to demonstrate otherwise.  You just run with allegations that make no sense and have no support.  Similarly you have nothing to counter the police explanation of changing various items to DB in order to reflect the initials of the person who actually found the items.  Your allegations are all empty and baseless. You make allegations without any evidence to support your claims and ignore the valid reasons that the record establishes for the changes.  These changes do not establish there was more than 1 moderator let alone establish a moderator was seized by police on August 7 and a moderator received from Ann Eaton on September 11. 

6) There was no change in the lab serial number associated with the moderator.  A single document listed it as 23 instead of 22 and Cook admitted such was a clerical error on his part.  The forms are filled out by hand in triplicate and on the third form he screwed up and wrote 23 by accident.  The 3 forms are all identical except for this error. The lab referred to it as item 22 at all times and the police referred to it as item 22 the clerical error was ignored.  This clerical error doesn't support more than  than 1 moderator let alone establish a moderator was seized by police on August 7 and a moderator received from Ann Eaton on September 11. 

"You simply make up allegations from thin air such as the claim that Ann Eaton handed in a moderator on September 11."

She did, the fact that she had done is recorded in police owned documents, nso how can you or anybody say that these police documents do not amount to evidence, of course they do.

It is not recorded on any documents that she handed in a moderator on September 11.  You can't post any such documents on this website because they do not exist.

"There is nothing in the record to suggest such."
nothing you have not yet seen perhaps, but truly such evidence does exist, and is mentioned in police owned and police controlled records

So now you return to your admission that nothing posted on this site to date or publicly released by Bamber to date supports your claims and assert you have documents that prove it but have yet to release them...

If you had such documents you would have posted them long ago and kept posting them in every thread you post your claims in.  You have no such documents they are simply fictions of your own mind.  There are no unreleased statements stating Ann Eaton turned in a moderator on September 11 or that Jones seized a moderator on the day of the murders from WHF.  There are no police records of other kinds asserting such.  There are no lab records asserting such.  You are lying to us about possessing such evidence the same way you lied about seeing a photo of Sheila's body on the bed.  We know her body was never on the bed she was on the floor- the testimony establishes that as does her blood on the floor. If that evidence had not existed we would still know that they would not have taken photos of her in bed before moving her to the floor they would have moved her to the floor before taking photos.  So your claim you saw photos would still not be credible even if it had not been for the pool of her blood on the floor.  You have no real evidence so you make up evidence which you say you can't release because you no longer possess it or you refuse to release despite possessing it.  Why should anyone believe you?

"To support this fable you made up a recorded phone call from Boutflour telling police to go pick it up from Ann Eaton on the 11th." I have never claimed any such thing, it is you who is now claiming I said that when I never have.



Oh yes you did, this is a direct cut and paste of your post: "you are not reporting the circumstances accurately Phone messages were recorded regarding David Boutflour contacting Essex police on 10th September informing police that he had found the gun silencer, his sister handed exhibits over to police on the following day the 11th September 1985, as compared against the date, 12August her husband Peter handed over the other silencer to DS Jones."

you always run away from your own words, that is another sign you are just making crap up and then when busted you deny ever making the bogus claims.


What I may have said, because it is true, is that David Boutflour phoned up the police on either 10th / 11th September 1985, to tell them that he had found the sound moderator to the rifle. ANN Eaton handed a sound moderator to police on 11th September, which is confirmed by details being recorded on a Lab' submission of articles to the lab' form, dated 20th September 1985.

There is no lab document which states a moderator to be examined was taken from Ann Eaton on September 11. 

In this document it makes mention of amongst other things the fact that the silencer in question is being sent along to the lab' to be checked for the presence of blood and fibers, now why would police be sending this particular silencer to the lab' on 20th September, to be checked for blood and fibers, if as we are being led to believe that on the 30th August 1985, another silencer bearing the identifying mark of DB/1 (23) had been present at the lab' ever since 30th August, and by which on the 12th September, key blood evidence in the form of a small flake had already been found inside it? Not only had the key flake of blood already been found inside silencer DB/1 (23) on 12th September 1985, but the other silencer handed over to police on 11th September was retained by police until 20th September, before they decided to forward it to the lab' to be checked. The facts speak for themselves, key blood group evidence was found inside one of the silencers (DB/1 - 23), before the other silencer was sent to the lab' by police on 20th September. Nobody in thier right mind could reliably maintain that both of these silencers, were one and the same..,

The moderator was going back and forth to the lab it wasn't there continuously and they removed the blood at various times.  There was still microscopic traces of blood left when defense expert Lincoln examined it he was able to detect blood on the first 8 baffles and even was able to test the blood to find out it was group A.

The evidence you cite doesn't establish more than 1 moderator let alone assert a moderator turned over by Ann Eaton on September 11 was being tested.  Ther eis not a single documentary reference to a moderator handed in by Ann Eaton on September 11 ANYWHERE-  You simply decided to make up that at the same time Oakey took the scope and bullets from Ann Eaton that he also took another moderator. You have no evidence of this you just made it up that on this date he took a moderator from her as well.  Her statement doesn't assert she gave him a moderator,  Oakey's statement doesn't suggest it.  No moderator was sent to the lab with the items Oakey took.  You simply made the claim up. The fact the moderator was sent to the lab multiple times doesn't even establish there were multiple moderators let alone establish that on September 11 Ann Eaton handed in a moderator.

"In the meantime it makes zero sense for the family to turn in a moderator of theirs doctor it with blood
and paint on Aug 12 and falsely insist it was found at WHF then a month later to take another of their moderators, doctor it with blood and again to insist it was found at WHF"

there you go again, attributing things to me, when I have not said those things to you, the way you write about this matter it doesn't make sense, but the way I might choose to say it, makes positive sence  So your claims make no sense on top of having zero evidentiary support. as usual, you are talking hogwas

You make so many different claims you forget what you write.  You asserted the family found 2 moderators at WHF and that they turned in one in August and the other in September.  Your claims constantly change because instead of having a position based on evidence things are fluid and you simply make up allegations a new each time you post.  You even contradict yourself by on one hand asserting you have evidence but refuse to release it and on the other hand insisting the statements and other documents posted on this site already establish your claims.  I'm not the one posting contradictory and confusing things- you are.  I am not confusing what you write or confusing you you are the one confusing others to the point that most can't even follow what you are alleging.


Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Jan

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I have seen the documentary evidence about the call from DB in Sept - unfortunately like most things in this case it is not clear - it could have been him calling to see what was happening about the moderator because obviously the family felt they should be kept in the picture .

I don't think Mike is deliberately telling lies I think the log is ambiguous.

As is the one where it says the moderator should be handed back to the police.

Offline scipio_usmc

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I have seen the documentary evidence about the call from DB in Sept - unfortunately like most things in this case it is not clear - it could have been him calling to see what was happening about the moderator because obviously the family felt they should be kept in the picture .

I don't think Mike is deliberately telling lies I think the log is ambiguous.

As is the one where it says the moderator should be handed back to the police.

There is no evidence that states he found another moderator that needs to be collected by police.  There most certainly is no recording of a phone call made by him.  Nor is there any evidence of police collecting a moderator from Ann Eaton on September 11.

He is intentionally distorting and that distortion is to pretend there is evidence that demonstrates that Boutflour stated he had a moderator which needed to be picked up by police and that this supports police taking the moderator at the same time they took the other items from Ann Eaton. 

It amounts to distorting- he should admit he has no evidence and is just speculating because that is all he is doing. 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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Bozo - pay attention

Three submissions of a silencer to the Lab' at huntingdon, as follows:-

(1) - SJ/1 (22) - 13/08/85

(2) -  DB/1 (23) - 30/08/85

(3) - DRB/1 - 20/09/85
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...