Author Topic: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?  (Read 26189 times)

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Offline susan

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #75 on: March 05, 2015, 05:43:PM »
Hello Jan I agree with you this forum is not about scoring points it is about discussing what is before us regarding the Jeremy Bamber case and remaining respectful to each other.  I have the same doubts as you re: the silencer and JM's statement  but as you know I tend to believe he is guilty of murdering his family but I am like Alias in that so many things leave me puzzled.

Offline Jan

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #76 on: March 05, 2015, 05:44:PM »
Unfortunately for you and the handful of AN Others, the evidence points clearly to his involvement so thinking he is innocent amounts to nothing more than semantics.

that is just the kind of post I meant - Obviously he is in jail and it is easy for you to say that. But I bet if you ask any barrister for their opinion they will admit that a  case such as this is often won on the "abilities" of the advocates and experts involved - because most juries will not understand all the evidence  given so whoever weaves the best "story" will win the jury over.

And I can only see one piece of evidence that points to Jeremy and I bet today that would not have even been accepted as evidence- the rest is subjective.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2015, 05:57:PM »
I have never been 100% sure that Jeremy is innocent although I tend to think he is.

The few percent that spoils it for me is the cleanness of Sheila and the silencer evidence. Although, both the cleanness and the silencer cold have an alternative to be considered.

The 10-2 majority. Not all the jurors thought he was guilty.

I am very suspicious of Jones, especially when he met the girls off duty and attended the bank with them.  He also told Colin not to mention he had changed his statement in court otherwise it would cause problems.  Plus, a year later he attended the girls flat to verify times on one of the clocks although the clock its self had been altered due to the clocks being put back in October 1985. He was the one that took the silencer. He was the one that was there that day when a paint sample was taken from the under shelf of the AGA.  A yellow sticker marks the place where the paint sample was taken, yet they failed to notice the scratch marks which were a inch away.  Jones was in it up to his neck, even to the point where he tells AE not to mention that he had taken a pair of black canvas shoes from Sheila's bedroom.  I do not trust his involvement in the case.

1) police found the scratches the same time they took the paint samples.  They photographed the scratches the same time they took the samples they didn't miss the scratches and find them at a later date.

2) Your distrust seems to be because you support Jeremy as opposed to stemming from any genuine cause of alarm that would suggest Jones did anything wrong.  Receiving the moderator and the other things he did in the course of the case are things he was supposed to be doing while working the case. 

The windows, need I say anymore about them?

None of the debates over the windows resulted in any objective evidence that would suggest Jeremy's innocence. 


The blood evidence was never fully examined.

The blood evidence that was important was examined. Testing every single passive drop for blood type would have accomplished nothing and could not have helped establish Jeremy's innocence.

No real forensic evidence was ever supplied in court other than the silencer evidence and even that could be flawed in court of today.

Most cases of that era had little forensic evidence.  Jeremy's case has more than most.  The drawback evidence was forensic evidence and the lack of forensic evidence tying Sheila to the beating and shootings still technically falls under the forensic evidence umbrella.  No one has demonstrated the ballistic evidence as planted.  Choosing to believe it might be though there is no evidence stems from some underlying boas not an objective following of the facts.

The blood on Sheila's arm form the wrist could have been back spatter, this was never fully examined.


1) it was determined to be her blood
2) it could not have been back spatter, back spatter looks like this:




The draw-back was fully examined in court.

I assume you mean wasn't.  The prosecution discussed everything they needed to discuss and the defense had no ability to challenge any of it with an expert testimony.  There is nothing to this day that can be put forth to challenge it so little wonder all the defense could do beyond suggesting maybe it was drawback from June and Nevill.

The telephone was never fingerprinted.


Why would it be?  Jeremy worked there and constantly used the phone so his prints being found ont he phone would prove nothing nor would the prints of others who lived there or worked there being found on the phone matter.

Then there is the NOTW deal.

Signing a deal to provide her story doesn't in any way suggest she lied to police a year earlier or that she lied in court.


DNA??????????????

Its not what is said in court that provided the best evidence its the forensic evidence that tells the truth.

Jeremy's own expert admitted the DNA had no ability to determine whose blood was found int he moderator. The DNA tests were always just a propaganda tool.

The evidence related to where the shots were fired etc reveal the killer went into the master bedroom and began shooting the parents but ran out of bullets before Nevill could be immobilized and then they proceeded to the kitchen where they fought over the gun, Nevill was beaten unconscious then the killer reloaded partially and shot Nevill to death.  The killer then loaded the gun to maximum capacity (11 rounds) and went upstairs shooting June 1 time between the eyes to make sure she wwas really dead, using 8 on the boys and the last 2 on Sheila.

The forensic evidence establishes Sheila didn't kill anyone else or kill herself.

Jeremy staged bullets after the murders but staged too many.

Jeremy lied about calling Julie after police when in fact he called her before and should not have called her at all if he really received a call from Nevill as claimed.

There is no rational reason why Nevill would have called Jeremy even if Sheila had grabbed the gun but the forensic evidence shows she didn't. 

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline maggie

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2015, 06:01:PM »
Hello Jan I agree with you this forum is not about scoring points it is about discussing what is before us regarding the Jeremy Bamber case and remaining respectful to each other.  I have the same doubts as you re: the silencer and JM's statement  but as you know I tend to believe he is guilty of murdering his family but I am like Alias in that so many things leave me puzzled.
Absolutely right Susan, do wish everyone could abide by those sentiments, it would certainly encourage and improve debate.

Offline susan

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2015, 06:07:PM »
Maggie do I get a good behaviour badge ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2015, 06:08:PM »

Much as I HATE comparing this case with any other, I was intrigued to hear that the girl friend of the guy who is being charged with murdering his step sister, is being charged with perverting the cause of justice. What has she done that Julie didn't?

They believe that she help dismember the body and dump it where the body was found.  They wonder whether she helped actually kill her but don't have enough evidence to charge her with murder so instead for now are just charging her for helping dispose of the body.

Aside from charging her because she had an active role, they could hope she will take a plea deal and testify against her boyfriend. 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Adam

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #81 on: March 05, 2015, 06:17:PM »
This is a good question.  Many times we have tried to understand the position and motivations.  Leave it to you to try to ruin the thread out of jealousy because you didn't start it.

I already created a thread 'why do Jeremy's supporters support him ?' .

It got a good response, including from Caroline. So not sure why she would create a thread asking the same question. Although Caroline as a moderator did delete my thread on Jeremy's call to the police. Then immediately created 'Neville's call to the police' poll.

So not jealous at all.

Anyway, you have since repeatedly given the answers to this question - they want to believe Jeremy is innocent & ignore or dispute the vast amount of incriminating evidence. But have no proof to back it up. So I don't know why it is being asked again.

I will find my thread.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 06:18:PM by Adam »
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline maggie

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #82 on: March 05, 2015, 06:19:PM »
I already created a thread 'why do Jeremy's supporters support him ?' .

It got a good response, including from Caroline. So not sure why she would create a thread asking the same question. Although Caroline as a moderator did delete my thread on Jeremy's call to the police. Then immediately created 'Neville's call to the police' poll.

So not jealous at all.

Anyway, you have since repeatedly given the answers to this question - they want to believe Jeremy is innocent & ignore or dispute the vast amount of incriminating evidence. But have no proof to back it up. So I don't know why it is being asked again.

I will find my thread.
Please don't Adam  ;D

Offline Jane

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #83 on: March 05, 2015, 06:33:PM »
They believe that she help dismember the body and dump it where the body was found.  They wonder whether she helped actually kill her but don't have enough evidence to charge her with murder so instead for now are just charging her for helping dispose of the body.

Aside from charging her because she had an active role, they could hope she will take a plea deal and testify against her boyfriend.


OK, thank-you for that. Can you please explain why Maxine Carr, girl friend to Ian Huntley, was also charged with the same thing when she wasn't just not in the house when the murders occurred, she wasn't even in the COUNTY. I can understand WHY she gave him an alibi. What woman would want to think her fella capable of SUCH a heinous act? But, unlike Jeremy, he'd never given her a clue about his dark thoughts. I guess you'll say that there's a point of law here somewhere but all I see is Julie, who'd known about Jeremy's plans for a year -albeit, she may not have believed he'd go through with it- and vouched for him despite saying she KNEW what he'd done, and Maxine, who had no inkling what HER man had done but believed what he'd told her and gave him an alibi on the strength of it. Julie walks free to, what was then, a small fortune and Maxine gets a lengthy prison sentence. There really is no wonder that we Brits remain suspicious of out judicial system.

Offline lebaleb

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #84 on: March 05, 2015, 06:34:PM »
1) police found the scratches the same time they took the paint samples.  They photographed the scratches the same time they took the samples they didn't miss the scratches and find them at a later date.

2) Your distrust seems to be because you support Jeremy as opposed to stemming from any genuine cause of alarm that would suggest Jones did anything wrong.  Receiving the moderator and the other things he did in the course of the case are things he was supposed to be doing while working the case. 

None of the debates over the windows resulted in any objective evidence that would suggest Jeremy's innocence. 


The blood evidence that was important was examined. Testing every single passive drop for blood type would have accomplished nothing and could not have helped establish Jeremy's innocence.

Most cases of that era had little forensic evidence.  Jeremy's case has more than most.  The drawback evidence was forensic evidence and the lack of forensic evidence tying Sheila to the beating and shootings still technically falls under the forensic evidence umbrella.  No one has demonstrated the ballistic evidence as planted.  Choosing to believe it might be though there is no evidence stems from some underlying boas not an objective following of the facts.
 

1) it was determined to be her blood
2) it could not have been back spatter, back spatter looks like this:




I assume you mean wasn't.  The prosecution discussed everything they needed to discuss and the defense had no ability to challenge any of it with an expert testimony.  There is nothing to this day that can be put forth to challenge it so little wonder all the defense could do beyond suggesting maybe it was drawback from June and Nevill.
 

Why would it be?  Jeremy worked there and constantly used the phone so his prints being found ont he phone would prove nothing nor would the prints of others who lived there or worked there being found on the phone matter.

Signing a deal to provide her story doesn't in any way suggest she lied to police a year earlier or that she lied in court.


Jeremy's own expert admitted the DNA had no ability to determine whose blood was found int he moderator. The DNA tests were always just a propaganda tool.

The evidence related to where the shots were fired etc reveal the killer went into the master bedroom and began shooting the parents but ran out of bullets before Nevill could be immobilized and then they proceeded to the kitchen where they fought over the gun, Nevill was beaten unconscious then the killer reloaded partially and shot Nevill to death.  The killer then loaded the gun to maximum capacity (11 rounds) and went upstairs shooting June 1 time between the eyes to make sure she wwas really dead, using 8 on the boys and the last 2 on Sheila.

The forensic evidence establishes Sheila didn't kill anyone else or kill herself.

Jeremy staged bullets after the murders but staged too many.

Jeremy lied about calling Julie after police when in fact he called her before and should not have called her at all if he really received a call from Nevill as claimed.

There is no rational reason why Nevill would have called Jeremy even if Sheila had grabbed the gun but the forensic evidence shows she didn't.

Sheila may have intended to kill the whole family and demanded that Neville called Jeremy.

Offline lookout

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #85 on: March 05, 2015, 06:40:PM »

Sheila may have intended to kill the whole family and demanded that Neville called Jeremy.





This is what I first thought too,as Sheila would have KNOWN that Jeremy would have been blamed otherwise. Sheila wasn't that daft not to have worked it out.

John

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #86 on: March 05, 2015, 06:41:PM »
The denial on here never ceases to amaze.  Every scrap of evidence points to an innocent Sheila and a guilty Jeremy but hey, let's not worry too much about the facts and the evidence as a good conspiracy theory is always worth a punt.



It wasn't me guv...honest!
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 06:49:PM by John »

Offline Jane

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #87 on: March 05, 2015, 06:47:PM »

Sheila may have intended to kill the whole family and demanded that Neville called Jeremy.



Then would he not have said words to the effect that Sheila had hold of a gun, was becoming very distressed/agitated and was saying/insisting/demanding that you come over now. He'd have had to be totally thick not to recognize that there was a problem.

Offline lookout

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #88 on: March 05, 2015, 06:50:PM »


Then would he not have said words to the effect that Sheila had hold of a gun, was becoming very distressed/agitated and was saying/insisting/demanding that you come over now. He'd have had to be totally thick not to recognize that there was a problem.





I doubt Neville could have said much more than he did,with a gun pointing at him. One wrong move and all that---------------------

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: What Makes Supporters Believe Jeremy is Innocent?
« Reply #89 on: March 05, 2015, 06:53:PM »

OK, thank-you for that. Can you please explain why Maxine Carr, girl friend to Ian Huntley, was also charged with the same thing when she wasn't just not in the house when the murders occurred, she wasn't even in the COUNTY. I can understand WHY she gave him an alibi. What woman would want to think her fella capable of SUCH a heinous act? But, unlike Jeremy, he'd never given her a clue about his dark thoughts. I guess you'll say that there's a point of law here somewhere but all I see is Julie, who'd known about Jeremy's plans for a year -albeit, she may not have believed he'd go through with it- and vouched for him despite saying she KNEW what he'd done, and Maxine, who had no inkling what HER man had done but believed what he'd told her and gave him an alibi on the strength of it. Julie walks free to, what was then, a small fortune and Maxine gets a lengthy prison sentence. There really is no wonder that we Brits remain suspicious of out judicial system.

Julie didn't provide a false alibi to police.  She didn't claim he was with her. She had no legal obligation to tell police that he desired to kill his family.  She had a moral obligation to tell on him but not a legal one.  Her legal obligation was not to make up things like a fake alibi to cover for him and not to knowingly destroy evidence.  Giving her evidence such as bloody clothing and saying get rid of it and her doing so would be legally culpable.  She would not have to tell on him that he asked her to do so but legally she should say no and not do it and if she does then she is committing a crime.  If police ask if she was asked to destroy evidence she could either choose to remain silent or speak but if she speaks she can't lie and say no he never asked me because that is obstruction. 

If you are granted immunity you lose you legal right to remain silent and can be forced to talk.   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry