Russia - worrying?

[ILB]

    The world has stood by powerless while NATO has literally destroyed cities, Raqqa, Mosul, Fallujah, levelling them and everyone in them. The dead left under rubble uncounted. The world is fucking tired Of NATO/US/UK aggression and will happily appease NATO being confronted and taken down. In fact most of the world are cheering them on.
    BRICS, SCO and other trading blocs are breaking free of the dollar. There is a lot going on in the economic sphere by countries who have had enough of the US abusing the world reserve currency status of the dollar. It's demise is imminent.
    Outside the propagandised west, it isn't Russia that is seen as the threat.

Unfortunately global power always champions.

[ILB]

    Should the world have let NATO dismember Yugoslavia, bomb Belgrade?
     Was this appeasement of US/NATO?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to invade Afghanistan?
     Was this appeasement?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to invade Iraq?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to bomb sovereign states like Syria, Yemen?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to invade Libya?
     Should the world allow NATO?
     You have absolutely no idea of what NATO's ultimate agenda is. Although there are some fucking big clues.
     Do you think that NATO are perhaps seeking world domination?
     Did you make Hitler comparisons when any of the above was taking place, in your name?
     Did you even give a shit? or is it only now? Indoctrinated much?
   

I wasn't going to answer this but I will. I'm not indoctrinated at all.

My question to you is have you ever lived under a dictatorship?

Not one country you have mentioned their were democracies

Take Iraq for a second. I didn't condone the Iraq war. They could have got him out in 1991. He was a tyrant. Are you aware in Iraq Saddam would get his secret police to go round schools and say to children " what's your daddy think of uncle Saddam? And if it was a negative answer. The entire family would be killed.  His son went round schools and nightclubs kidnapping raping and killing women and young girls.

[David1819]

I wasn't going to answer this but I will. I'm not indoctrinated at all.

My question to you is have you ever lived under a dictatorship?

Not one country you have mentioned their were democracies

Take Iraq for a second. I didn't condone the Iraq war. They could have got him out in 1991. He was a tyrant. Are you aware in Iraq Saddam would get his secret police to go round schools and say to children " what's your daddy think of uncle Saddam? And if it was a negative answer. The entire family would be killed.  His son went round schools and nightclubs kidnapping raping and killing women and young girls.

You should not have bothered answering. You are dealing with a Tankie of the highest order 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnATl-566sU

[gringo]

I wasn't going to answer this but I will. I'm not indoctrinated at all.

My question to you is have you ever lived under a dictatorship?

Not one country you have mentioned their were democracies

Take Iraq for a second. I didn't condone the Iraq war. They could have got him out in 1991. He was a tyrant. Are you aware in Iraq Saddam would get his secret police to go round schools and say to children " what's your daddy think of uncle Saddam? And if it was a negative answer. The entire family would be killed.  His son went round schools and nightclubs kidnapping raping and killing women and young girls.

   You haven't answered anything.
     Would it have been ok if China or Russia or any other country or self styled global police force invaded and bombed all of those sovereign nations?
     What has our or your opinion on their governance to do with anything? Non western approved governance does not give us the moral right to bomb and subjugate the populations of those countries. Our invasions are straight up piracy and theft. You may be fooled by warm words of spreading freedumd and democracy via the novel means of sanctions and invasions but the world has had enough of this criminal behaviour.  You wouldn't accept any other country/organisation acting this way. Why should the world accept US/NATO diktats.
     Previously the military power of NATO and economic power of the dollar reserve guaranteed US/NATO powere. That has now been/is being neutralised.
      NATO/US have no moral authority. The world has had enough and is neutralising them.
     

[gringo]

Unfortunately global power always champions.

   If this is your rather glib response to the bombing and death of millions, as is typical amongst the populations of the warmongering west, then you will understand why most of the rest of world is happy to see that power neutralised.

[gringo]

    Should the world have let NATO dismember Yugoslavia, bomb Belgrade?
     Was this appeasement of US/NATO?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to invade Afghanistan?
     Was this appeasement?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to invade Iraq?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to bomb sovereign states like Syria, Yemen?
     Should the world have allowed NATO to invade Libya?
     Should the world allow NATO?
     You have absolutely no idea of what NATO's ultimate agenda is. Although there are some fucking big clues.
     Do you think that NATO are perhaps seeking world domination?
     Did you make Hitler comparisons when any of the above was taking place, in your name?
     Did you even give a shit? or is it only now? Indoctrinated much?
   

   ILB or any of the other war apologists. ILB's claimed answer to this wasn't an answer at all. So  let's frame it differently.
     Would the world, including NATO, have allowed Russia, China to carry out all of the above?
     Using the same justifications as NATO?
     Had China invaded Iraq, would you now be justifying the invasion with stories about Uday and Saddam?
     If China had bombed and invaded Libya, would that be ok?
     Is it only ok if NATO act as judge, jury and executioner?
   

[gringo]

Remember the Minsk agreement talks. First one fell at the hurdle. I believe the second one stalled with Russia blaming Ukraine for it.


    This kind of analysis demonstrates your indoctrination. Straight from the mouths of western media then repeated and believed without question.
     Why do you think Minsk 2 failed? What were the obligations of the interested parties? Ukraine are undoubtedly responsible for their failures to even attempt to implement Minsk 2.
     The Ukrainian leadership have confirmed publically since that they never had any intention of implementing Minsk 2 and used it to buy time. This is admitted. There is zero doubt who is responsible.
     Who do you believe is to blame for the failure of Minsk 2? And why? What are the grounds for you beliefs?
     
     

[Steve_uk]

    Of course that was the reason, Steve. Many believed this at the time but ongoing aggression and the benefit of hindsight has disabused most of them and it is now seen, correctly, as the first blow in NATO's world domination tour.
     The Taliban harbouring Osama Bin Laden is an even bigger joke. The US refused to show evidence through any extradition procedure. The US simply demanded that the Taliban(Afghani govt.) hand over Bin Laden without evidence. No sovereign state would agree to this evidence free non legal demand. They knew that the Taliban couldn't do this. You have to show the evidence before any extradition.
     Country X demanding that country Y hand over a guest or else we will invade is not legal, Steve.
     The US were always going to invade Afghanistan.
     Every military invasion, bombing campaign by US/NATO has been based on later to be proven lies.
     To still believe that NATO interventions have been based on good intent given the destruction, civilian deaths, destroyed infrastructure, refugee crises and displacement caused by them is beyond naive. Are you unaware of the crimes committed in your name.
      That you still make excuses for the countless millions of deaths brought by this genocidal, aggressive crime spree is wilful blindness. Your ignorance and failure to see is because you choose not to. Facts on the ground unfolding are going to force everyone to confront the realities of NATO and our governments criminal actions.

Strange then that the Taliban offered to hand bin Laden over to a third country, the man who instigated the deaths of 3000 people.

[gringo]

Strange then that the Taliban offered to hand bin Laden over to a third country, the man who instigated the deaths of 3000 people.

   Not that strange when you're getting bombed and attacked. It wasn't a legal request and the US have shown zero evidence of Bin Laden's responsibility.
     You really are an apologist for any illegal invasion, bombing and sanctions by Empire.

[Steve_uk]

   Not that strange when you're getting bombed and attacked. It wasn't a legal request and the US have shown zero evidence of Bin Laden's responsibility.
     You really are an apologist for any illegal invasion, bombing and sanctions by Empire.

NATO has made mistakes. But still no excuse for Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

[David1819]

Had China invaded Iraq, would you now be justifying the invasion with stories about Uday and Saddam?
   

I would justify almost any country invading Iraq with the intention to remove Saddam Hussein. His regime was unacceptable. In my opinion it was a failure of the global community that he remained in power so long.

Ideally the Arab league should have all launched a joined effort to remove him themselves. Much like Tanzania invaded Uganda to remove Idi Amin and Vietnam invading Cambodia to remove Pol-Pot.

[ILB]

   You haven't answered anything.
     Would it have been ok if China or Russia or any other country or self styled global police force invaded and bombed all of those sovereign nations?
     What has our or your opinion on their governance to do with anything? Non western approved governance does not give us the moral right to bomb and subjugate the populations of those countries. Our invasions are straight up piracy and theft. You may be fooled by warm words of spreading freedumd and democracy via the novel means of sanctions and invasions but the world has had enough of this criminal behaviour.  You wouldn't accept any other country/organisation acting this way. Why should the world accept US/NATO diktats.
     Previously the military power of NATO and economic power of the dollar reserve guaranteed US/NATO powere. That has now been/is being neutralised.
      NATO/US have no moral authority. The world has had enough and is neutralising them.
   

No. NATO will live on.

It's Russia who will ultimately suffer in the long-term

You know this

[ILB]

   ILB or any of the other war apologists. ILB's claimed answer to this wasn't an answer at all. So  let's frame it differently.
     Would the world, including NATO, have allowed Russia, China to carry out all of the above?
     Using the same justifications as NATO?
     Had China invaded Iraq, would you now be justifying the invasion with stories about Uday and Saddam?
     If China had bombed and invaded Libya, would that be ok?
     Is it only ok if NATO act as judge, jury and executioner?
   

How is removing despot dictators acting as judge jury and executioner?

There is no good such thing as a good dictatorship. Every single country you have mentioned had an appalling history of human rights abuse. I care for people being able to have free speech. The right to live not in fear. I'm glad that these despots have been brought to book and overthrown

[gringo]

       Who was responsible for the non implementation of Minsk 2 accords?
       Minsk 2 has been raised a number of times now and each time, those accusing Russia of unprovoked aggression refuse to discuss apart from some glib repeated line from the media.
       First of all, unless somebody can show otherwise(they can't) Minsk 2 puts obligations on the Ukraine government to negotiate with the leaders of the "rebel" oblasts.
      In response to this the Ukrainian govt. refuse to meet or even recognise the leaders of these provinces. They did explicitly recognise the rebel leaders in the accords, however, because that is who also signed them.
      Anyone dispute this?
      Secondly an immediate ceasefire and pulling back of heavy weapons. Ignored by the Ukrainian govt.
      In the years since Minsk 2 they increased the shelling of civilians (monitored and confirmed by the OSCE).
      Is this disputed by anyone?
      Finally, for now, given the stated intent by the Ukrainian govt. since then that they had no intention of abiding by Minsk 2, the increased shelling and troop build up threatening an invasion; what do you think should have been done?
      Should the world have allowed a government to use its forces to shell and terrorise their own civilians in breach of Minsk 2, which also happens to be a UN Security Council resolution?
      Russia have over the years taken all of this through the proper channels of the UN.
      Ukraine were terrorising their own people, had zero intention of abiding by agreements and UN resolutions. How do you deal with this?
      Below I have once again linked Minsk 2
https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/UA_150212_MinskAgreement_en.pdf
     
      Read them and then, based on facts, tell me how Russia invaded a "peaceful, sovereign nation"

[gringo]

How is removing despot dictators acting as judge jury and executioner?

     Who judges that any given leader is a "despot dictator"?
     Who finds any given leader guilty of being a "despot dictator"?
     Who carries out the sentence(execution)?

     Your question makes itself look stupid. It is answered in your own question where you describe the act of being judge, jury and executioner.