Russia - worrying?

[Steve_uk]

       Who was responsible for the non implementation of Minsk 2 accords?
       Minsk 2 has been raised a number of times now and each time, those accusing Russia of unprovoked aggression refuse to discuss apart from some glib repeated line from the media.
       First of all, unless somebody can show otherwise(they can't) Minsk 2 puts obligations on the Ukraine government to negotiate with the leaders of the "rebel" oblasts.
      In response to this the Ukrainian govt. refuse to meet or even recognise the leaders of these provinces. They did explicitly recognise the rebel leaders in the accords, however, because that is who also signed them.
      Anyone dispute this?
      Secondly an immediate ceasefire and pulling back of heavy weapons. Ignored by the Ukrainian govt.
      In the years since Minsk 2 they increased the shelling of civilians (monitored and confirmed by the OSCE).
      Is this disputed by anyone?
      Finally, for now, given the stated intent by the Ukrainian govt. since then that they had no intention of abiding by Minsk 2, the increased shelling and troop build up threatening an invasion; what do you think should have been done?
      Should the world have allowed a government to use its forces to shell and terrorise their own civilians in breach of Minsk 2, which also happens to be a UN Security Council resolution?
      Russia have over the years taken all of this through the proper channels of the UN.
      Ukraine were terrorising their own people, had zero intention of abiding by agreements and UN resolutions. How do you deal with this?
      Below I have once again linked Minsk 2
https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/UA_150212_MinskAgreement_en.pdf
     
      Read them and then, based on facts, tell me how Russia invaded a "peaceful, sovereign nation"

Russia claims it's not inciting unrest in Donetsk and Luhansk when it's in it up to its neck. How do you think Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 was shot down?

[ILB]

How is removing despot dictators acting as judge jury and executioner?

     Who judges that any given leader is a "despot dictator"?
     Who finds any given leader guilty of being a "despot dictator"?
     Who carries out the sentence(execution)?

     Your question makes itself look stupid. It is answered in your own question where you describe the act of being judge, jury and executioner.

So what was Saddam Hussein then? Gadaffi etc?

Gadaffi was beaten to death by his own people.

Saddam went on trial and under Iraqi law was put to death in december 2006

[gringo]

Russia claims it's not inciting unrest in Donetsk and Luhansk when it's in it up to its neck. How do you think Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 was shot down?

    As a reply to an invitation to discuss Minsk 2, this is pathetic diversion yet again.
     Have you no reply to any of the questions regarding Minsk 2 and its non implementation by Kiev?
     I have linked the document, again, for you. I challenge you and anyone who disputes Ukraine and NATO's culpability to show where Russia is to blame. Instead you come up with the above.
     You repeatedly bring up MH17 when you have no answers to the whatever the current subject. I suspect very strongly that the Ukrainians brought it down. I have said before when you brought it up.
     So tell me, what do you think should have been done about Ukraine's failure to implement Minsk 2 and their continued and undisputed shelling of civilians, killing thousands?
     Read the agreements and get back to me on how Russia is to blame.

[Steve_uk]

    As a reply to an invitation to discuss Minsk 2, this is pathetic diversion yet again.
     Have you no reply to any of the questions regarding Minsk 2 and its non implementation by Kiev?
     I have linked the document, again, for you. I challenge you and anyone who disputes Ukraine and NATO's culpability to show where Russia is to blame. Instead you come up with the above.
     You repeatedly bring up MH17 when you have no answers to the whatever the current subject. I suspect very strongly that the Ukrainians brought it down. I have said before when you brought it up.
     So tell me, what do you think should have been done about Ukraine's failure to implement Minsk 2 and their continued and undisputed shelling of civilians, killing thousands?
     Read the agreements and get back to me on how Russia is to blame.

I'm well aware of the Minsk-2 agreement. I'm aware that in that document Russia was never mentioned. That's why I stated Russia was in it up to its neck, yet purported to maintain that it was an independent arbiter.

[gringo]

So what was Saddam Hussein then? Gadaffi etc?

Gadaffi was beaten to death by his own people.

Saddam went on trial and under Iraqi law was put to death in december 2006

     Your understanding of world affairs is childish and based on soundbites. You are incapable of discussion hence ridiculous fly by bullshit such as this.

     Gaddafi's brutal murder was carried out by Islamist Jihadists after his convoy was bombed by NATO forces who then directed his killers to his hideout where he was brutally beaten, sodomised with a bayonet and shot a number of times. Or as you ignorantly put it "beaten to death by his own people". This is whose side you are on.
     Saddam's show trial under US auspices was equally vile and illegal but ok by you cos Russia didn't do it.
     Do you want to answer any of the questions that I have asked?
     You are equally as incapable as the other two wise monkeys on here of any in depth discussion because your understanding is shallow.
   

[Steve_uk]

     Your understanding of world affairs is childish and based on soundbites. You are incapable of discussion hence ridiculous fly by bullshit such as this.

     Gaddafi's brutal murder was carried out by Islamist Jihadists after his convoy was bombed by NATO forces who then directed his killers to his hideout where he was brutally beaten, sodomised with a bayonet and shot a number of times. Or as you ignorantly put it "beaten to death by his own people". This is whose side you are on.
     Saddam's show trial under US auspices was equally vile and illegal but ok by you cos Russia didn't do it.
     Do you want to answer any of the questions that I have asked?
     You are equally as incapable as the other two wise monkeys on here of any in depth discussion because your understanding is shallow.
   

Let's cut to the chase gringo, since you seem obsessed with Minsk this evening. Russia wanted influence in Eastern Ukraine, namely Luhansk and Donetsk. What Ukraine, a sovereign state, could not accept was the formation of a people's militia in those provinces, effectively becoming its own police force, its own legal system and the power to conclude agreements with foreign states (i.e. Russia).

No independent state could have accepted these conditions.

[gringo]

I'm well aware of the Minsk-2 agreement. I'm aware that in that document Russia was never mentioned. That's why I stated Russia was in it up to its neck, yet purported to maintain that it was an independent arbiter.

   As you are "well aware" of Minsk 2, could you tell me what Russia's role is in those agreements? How about France and Germany?. What were their roles?
     Are they mentioned in the Minsk 2 accords?
     All of the above are the guarantors of Minsk 2 and are to guarantee that each side fulfils its obligations. Russia are not "in it up to their neck" without authority. It is, as previously stated, a UNSC resolution. Russia made sure of this. They are the guarantors of one side of a UNSC resolution. The side that they are acting as guarantors for are not the side which has deliberately and admittedly never had any intention of abiding by them.
     Are you "well aware" of that?
     Do you dispute any of it or are you going to bring up MH17 again?
      Which side has been the main transgressor of these agreements as observed by the OSCE monitors?
     

[Steve_uk]

   As you are "well aware" of Minsk 2, could you tell me what Russia's role is in those agreements? How about France and Germany?. What were their roles?
     Are they mentioned in the Minsk 2 accords?
     All of the above are the guarantors of Minsk 2 and are to guarantee that each side fulfils its obligations. Russia are not "in it up to their neck" without authority. It is, as previously stated, a UNSC resolution. Russia made sure of this. They are the guarantors of one side of a UNSC resolution. The side that they are acting as guarantors for are not the side which has deliberately and admittedly never had any intention of abiding by them.
     Are you "well aware" of that?
     Do you dispute any of it or are you going to bring up MH17 again?
      Which side has been the main transgressor of these agreements as observed by the OSCE monitors?
     

The apportioning of blame on ordinary Ukrainians for the downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 is beneath you. The aircraft was brought down by militia supported and armed by Russia. If Russia really cared about its Ukrainian cousins it would support the restoration of peace first in Donetsk and Luhansk, not push for reforms which Ukraine as an independent sovereign state could never accept.

[gringo]

Let's cut to the chase gringo, since you seem obsessed with Minsk this evening. Russia wanted influence in Eastern Ukraine, namely Luhansk and Donetsk. What Ukraine, a sovereign state, could not accept was the formation of a people's militia in those provinces, effectively becoming its own police force, its own legal system and the power to conclude agreements with foreign states (i.e. Russia).

No independent state could have accepted these conditions.

   How can you know these conditions when no negotiations took place because the Ukrainians refused to negotiate despite agreeing to negotiate and that agreement being voted as a UNSC resolution?
    You have just made all of that up and completely ignored that Ukraine govt. signed an agreement that they would negotiate. They refused to even recognise the leaders of the republics despite having explicitly already done so. Ukraine govt. breached from Day 1 and every other day since.
    Far from being obsessed with Minsk, I am tired of it being raised in fly by comments by posters such as yourself who then refuse to answer any of the questions posed. Every time I offer to discuss it after it is raised then you divert elsewhere. It is clear that you have heard it on the news and Russia bad and then just repeat some context and fact free drivel soundbite that you have heard. You know nothing of Minsk 2 and if you did you wouldn't raise it a discussion where you are hoping to blame Russia.
     What do you think should have been done about Ukraine's failure to ceasefire, negotiate and their build up of weaponry and troops near the contact line?
     

[Steve_uk]

   How can you know these conditions when no negotiations took place because the Ukrainians refused to negotiate despite agreeing to negotiate and that agreement being voted as a UNSC resolution?
    You have just made all of that up and completely ignored that Ukraine govt. signed an agreement that they would negotiate. They refused to even recognise the leaders of the republics despite having explicitly already done so. Ukraine govt. breached from Day 1 and every other day since.
    Far from being obsessed with Minsk, I am tired of it being raised in fly by comments by posters such as yourself who then refuse to answer any of the questions posed. Every time I offer to discuss it after it is raised then you divert elsewhere. It is clear that you have heard it on the news and Russia bad and then just repeat some context and fact free drivel soundbite that you have heard. You know nothing of Minsk 2 and if you did you wouldn't raise it a discussion where you are hoping to blame Russia.
     What do you think should have been done about Ukraine's failure to ceasefire, negotiate and their build up of weaponry and troops near the contact line?
   

I prefer to take an overview of Minsk. I am not the chief negotiator and I have no wish to get bogged down in detail. It's quite clear to me that Russia regarded Minsk 2 as invasion of Ukraine by the back door.

Let's leave it at that.

[gringo]

not push for reforms which Ukraine as an independent sovereign state could never accept.

     Ukraine had agreed to negotiate these reforms. They had agreed to, as a supposed sovereign state, negotiate these reforms.
     You believe that it is unreasonable to expect them to do something that they agreed to do?

[gringo]

I prefer to take an overview of Minsk. I am not the chief negotiator and I have no wish to get bogged down in detail. It's quite clear to me that Russia regarded Minsk 2 as invasion of Ukraine by the back door.

Let's leave it at that.

   It is two pages long. Two pages is too much detail for you?
    As long as it's clear to someone who takes an overview but doesn't bother with detail.

[David1819]

     Who judges that any given leader is a "despot dictator"?
     

Themselves. By their own admissions.

https://streamable.com/jfrs23

[gringo]

   Themselves. By their own admissions.

   If that video is admitting being a "despot dictator" then we have a lot of invading still to do.
   NATO has no right to act as judge, jury and executioner. You know this really. NATO's crime spree is ending as is NATO.

[ILB]

   Themselves. By their own admissions.

   If that video is admitting being a "despot dictator" then we have a lot of invading still to do.
   NATO has no right to act as judge, jury and executioner. You know this really. NATO's crime spree is ending as is NATO.

Have you ever lived under a dictatorship?