Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 365298 times)

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Offline ngb1066

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #315 on: October 03, 2015, 11:40:AM »
The far left and far right both are isolationist in their views.  The far left and right disagree on social issues and economics. 

Even if one hates the US, it is irrational to applaud people being harmed because you perceive it as harming US interests.  The fake narrative was created by anti-American revisionists and socialists that the RVN wanted the communist takeover and that the US stood in the way of this nationalistic movement and that is the narrative NGB is pushing.

The US didn't want Indochina restored to French control but the UK and France got the US to relent. The US first choice was for China to take responsibility.

Popular history has it that Ho Chi Minh did a lot against the Japanese and aided the US a great deal but the reality is he did little and had only a few insignificant dealings with the US.

His rag tag communist forced declared independence though they took over control of just a few areas where the Japanese pulled out of because of their surrender.  The Japanese gave them their weapons and some even stayed on and trained them.  The Chinese took over these Northern areas on behalf of the allies and Ho's men fled. The Japanese remained in control of the South. Eventually the French forces were freed and the Chinese and Japanese left and the French took over Indochina. 

Vietnam was divided into 3 parts under French rule. This is because the people in the areas were so different. There were plenty of minorities as well. The notion of their being a single Vietnam was a complete fiction made up by revisionists it was a hodgepodge more like Yugoslavia. That is one of the reasons why China didn't want permanent responsibility for the area. 

There were many different groups that wanted independence. The communist killed the leaders of the groups and basically took control of all of them in such manner to turn it into a communist movement.

After the communist takeover of China the communists armed Ho (with a lot of the weapons they captured from the Nationalist forces that fled to Taiwan they left their weapons behind and is why they had many Western weapons) and that is when his followers began in earnest to fight the French.

The US provided military aid to the French. The French public got sick of it and decided to leave. That is when the US was asked by South Vietnam for direct aid. Popular fiction is that the US installed a puppet but that is not true we supplied the government that formed under the peace deal that resulted in the French leaving.  Nor is it true that the Vietcong was a South Vietnamese entity.  The organizers were all from North Vietnam they infiltrated into South Vietnam.  Until 1960 it was mainly a terrorist campaign.  Then it escalated into regiments and even division from North Vietnam operating there.  Some were NVA AKA North Vietnamese regulars.  Others were Vietcong regiments which the cadre (officers and noncoms) North Vietnamese soldiers and the rest were a mix of people who came from North Vietnam or were in South Vietnam already but were impressed into service willingly or unwillingly.

The Vietcong were absolutely decimated after the Tet Offensive.  Teh Tet offensive was a major conventional attack.  The counterattack from the US and RVN forces wiped out most of these forces.  The remainder of the cadre were largely killed during US counterinsurgency operations. The few Vietcong regiments that remained failed miserably in operations in 1970 and 1971 and basically after that they were discontinued.  They were reconstituted in name only by naming some units of the North Vietnamese Army Vietcong regiments.

Post Tet the ARVN units began to fight much better than in the past.  They essentially copied the US military- they even had Vietnamese Marines, Rangers etc.  They had some Americans helping lead them but began carrying on most of the fighting themselves with US airpower assisting them. The North Vietnamese suffered comparable casualties against them that the US inflicted.  The ARVN was suffering considerably less casualties than the enemy.   This meant there was a stalemate. This and US bombing of the North forced the to give up and agree to a peace deal.

In order to get South Vietnam to agree to peace Nixon secretly promised that if the treaty were violated we would assist them again. We stuck to the treaty and cut our aid to the RVN.   The USSR and China began providing much more aid than in the past particularly the Chinese they flooded Vietnam with weapons even tanks and planes.  They helped build a million man army.  They didn't do it for nothing. They did it to enable the communist government to take over all of Vietnam.

They knew from the past that US airpower would decimate their large scale attacks so they started out with a limited attack that the South Vietnamese was dealing with but they were low on fuel, ammunition and asked the US not only for such aid but for US airpower assistance.  Nixon was busy with Watergate and had no intention of going back because it would mean the need to stay committed forever like in Korea.  Vietnam had no strategic value that he deemed would warrant such commitment. So he rebuked the.  The Vietnamese saw the US refused to reengage and then launched a full scale invasion. Without US advice their planners responded ineptly. But even when they did know what to do try a counterattack fuel problems or refugees blocking the roads stood in their way.  Many soldiers went home to try to defend their home villages instead of staying with their units. Obviously they would be totally ineffective in small bands against a massive conventional force.   They managed to hold out longer than the French did against the Nazis but that's not much of a feat!

The US military was defeated fiction is just that a fiction.  The lesson enemies got from this is that eventually the US will tire and leave and then after the US is gone they can renew the struggle.  This is the strategy Saddam had in mind that is why he organized an insurgent force even before the invasion happened. He didn't expect to be caught and killed.  It's the strategy the terrorists in Iraq had in mind. It's the strategy the Taliban still have in mind. Of course the North Vietnamese had something the Taliban currently lacks.  The Taliban were initially supplied by Pakistan but their aid now is not from government entities but simply ordinary Pakistani extremists.  That's far different from the DRV being supplied by China and the USSR with heavy weapons.  They can still do damage to various villages and towns but have little hope of taking over all of Afghanistan.

A totally revisionist view of history.  You really do not have a clue.


Offline buddy

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #316 on: October 03, 2015, 03:26:PM »
A totally revisionist view of history.  You really do not have a clue.
Bet he doesn't win many cases.
Judge would have dropped off listening to his long winded statements.
I repeat I do not believe he is a lawyer, or resides in the US.
How can he be up until the early hours all the time, unless of course he is unemployed, which he more than likely


Offline maggie

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Offline Roch

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #319 on: October 03, 2015, 07:22:PM »
Hi Roch we should have kept our noses out of Lybia, and Iraq.
The west have stirred a hornets nest imo.

Hi Buddy.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #320 on: October 03, 2015, 09:36:PM »
A totally revisionist view of history.  You really do not have a clue.

You are the one who subscribes to revisionist babble not me.  That is why you can't identify battles we lost
and are stuck making up that we were beaten by an invading force that attacked when we were no longer in Vietnam.

You wear political blinders that result in you cheering a Chinese/Soviet funded communist invasion that installed a non-democratic totalitarian government in control of all of Vietnam instead of just North Vietnam and thus harmed those living in South Vietnam not the US government or people.

This thread highlights that many couldn't care less about people living under totalitarian governments so long as it isn't them living under such governments and will even make up that they are better off under such totalitarian governments as an excuse to avoid helping them rather than to just admit the truth which is that they are too selfish to be willing to do so.

I prefer honesty- admit that you are unwilling to help don't piss on someone's leg and tell them it is raining. That is effectively what telling people they are better off under dictatorships amounts to.     
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline maggie

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #321 on: October 03, 2015, 09:53:PM »
You are the one who subscribes to revisionist babble not me.  That is why you can't identify battles we lost
and are stuck making up that we were beaten by an invading force that attacked when we were no longer in Vietnam.

You wear political blinders that result in you cheering a Chinese/Soviet funded communist invasion that installed a non-democratic totalitarian government in control of all of Vietnam instead of just North Vietnam and thus harmed those living in South Vietnam not the US government or people.

This thread highlights that many couldn't care less about people living under totalitarian governments so long as it isn't them living under such governments and will even make up that they are better off under such totalitarian governments as an excuse to avoid helping them rather than to just admit the truth which is that they are too selfish to be willing to do so.

I prefer honesty- admit that you are unwilling to help don't piss on someone's leg and tell them it is raining. That is effectively what telling people they are better off under dictatorships amounts to.     
Hope you aren't accusing me of not caring about people under dictatorships, that is not what I said at all.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 09:57:PM by maggie »

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #322 on: October 04, 2015, 12:51:AM »
Bet he doesn't win many cases.
Judge would have dropped off listening to his long winded statements.
I repeat I do not believe he is a lawyer, or resides in the US.
How can he be up until the early hours all the time, unless of course he is unemployed, which he more than likely

I think he is a Lawyer but with too much time on his hands

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #323 on: October 04, 2015, 02:58:AM »
Bet he doesn't win many cases.
Judge would have dropped off listening to his long winded statements.
I repeat I do not believe he is a lawyer, or resides in the US.
How can he be up until the early hours all the time, unless of course he is unemployed, which he more than likely

Judges decide legal motions mainly, juries handle the trying of facts. Motions are decided on the papers, oral arguments are essentially worthless. Judges make up their mind before oral arguments and don't change them as a result.   

I'm a real lawyer I have no reason to make it up. Facts are established by evidence to support such not the occupation of the person making the claim.

I especially have no reason to make up being in the US.  How does that help it's not as if everyone here loves America.

I am awake into the early hours of the morning but rarely post those hours because I am normally watching TV and people here are asleep or just waking up.  Sometimes I am doing things at the computer and will be here when people are posting early but that is usually weekends.   

The post I made at 4pm your time was 11am my time.  You currently are 5 hours ahead after Halloween it will jump to 6 hours ahead. 11am is when I got around to coming to this site that day.  That makes it doubtful I am in the US?

Where am I Mongolia?  Germany? Australia?  Maybe you think I am in the UK and using American English to fool people, though why would I need to?  This site is anonymous I don't need to say I am in a different country to keep my identity hidden.  What purpose would be served by it?

When you go that far off the deep-end into conspiracy theories that you think I am lying about what country I am from it undermines your entire line of reasoning and thought process.  You should quit while you are ahead saying you don't believe I am a lawyer to which I respond who cares. I don't care if people believe it or not I said it because if people ask about my background I have no problem answering. It doesn't mean squat whether people believe it or not such has nothing to do with the arguments I make and evidence I present.

Where I am from and what occupation I do won't change that the US left Vietnam after a peace deal was signed, that Nixon secretly promised to defend the RVN in the event the treaty is broken, that Nixon failed to live up to his promise, allowed the North Vietnamese invasion to to occur unmolested and as Saigon was falling evacuated thousands of Vietnamese to the Philippines but many more were left behind to face the wrath of the communists.  These are historical facts. My background doesn't have anything to do with them.  I know these historical facts because of my background- I am an American who took courses on the Cold War and Vietnam in college.  One of my professors was from the "Revisionist School" but he didn't force his views on us he explained the revisionist views and traditional views.  The particular revisionist arguments he subscribed to was that the US wanted to save South Vietnam from communist rule so that after the war was over they could open South Vietnam to Japanese trade so that Japan would sell to South Vietnam and that since such efforts failed Japan ended up selling to us instead creating the huge trade imbalances that followed the Vietnam War.  He could not point to anyone in the government who said they were trying to set up Vietnam to become a market for Japanese goods.  He could not point to anyone in the government who said they needed to open other markets anywhere in order to prevent a trade imbalance from blowing out of control with Japan. It's something these revisionists simply thought up themselves that they think deep down in secret this was the concerns. I was exposed to all sorts of schools of thought but at the end of the day I only believe what can be established with proof.

So I don't give a rat's ass that in his memoirs Dwight Eisenhower claimed the Chinese agreed to a cease fire in Korea because he threatened to use the atomic bomb and this scared them into capitulating.  I look at evidence.  The evidence is that the US didn't threaten China. Obscure remarks were passed to China through intermediaries that all options were on the table.  That's a far cry from threatening to nuke them if they don't quit.  Chinese sources reveal the government was not concerned about atomic bombs.  They were prepared to endure massive loss of life like they had endured at the hands of the Japanese. That is the thing about totalitarian governments they don't care about protecting their citizens they care about their politics only.

If the US actually nuked their main industrial areas that could have caught their attention and made them realize they totally underestimated the threat but it's a damn lie to say that they were in fear of being nuked and this is why they agreed to a cease fire.  Just because that was Eisenhower's opinion doesn't make it reality.  I care about reality not self-serving erroneous opinions.

   
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #324 on: October 05, 2015, 10:40:AM »
I think he is a Lawyer but with too much time on his hands






What--------in the States,you're joking ? They're " lawyer " mad.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #325 on: October 05, 2015, 04:50:PM »

What--------in the States,you're joking ? They're " lawyer " mad.

maybe he has a bad reputation  ::)

Offline nugnug

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #326 on: October 15, 2015, 11:08:AM »
seems amerca is having trouble bringing democracy to itself.

http://www.gregpalast.com/gop-led-purge-threat-to-3-5-million-voters/

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #327 on: October 18, 2015, 12:41:PM »
seems amerca is having trouble bringing democracy to itself.

http://www.gregpalast.com/gop-led-purge-threat-to-3-5-million-voters/


Greg Palast is a pure fantasist and fraud.

"On Why Greg Palast is Dangerous: "He often makes fantastic claims based on his 'Sam Spade' detective work", drational wrote, "and then (along with his many devotees) complains when Mainstream media in this country do not report his stories. Legitimate journalists have a responsibility not to mislead people."[23]"

Offline nugnug

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #328 on: October 18, 2015, 12:45:PM »
where does that qaute come from.

he works for the bbc.

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #329 on: October 18, 2015, 02:05:PM »