Author Topic: Russia - worrying?  (Read 365200 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #300 on: October 01, 2015, 07:15:PM »
The South Vietnamese certainly where not celebrating.

The ULTIMATE argument against US policy in Vietnam is that we should have let those armed by the  Soviets and Chinese takeover early on.  There would have been less bloodshed had we done so.  The same argument is made in Korea.  If we didn't intervene the war would have been over in 1950 and fewer people would have died.

People who don't know what is it like living under a tolitarian regime are saying that is preferable to the death that occurred.  The people in the ROK today would disagree. They are not happy their loved ones died but they feel it was worthwhile like we feel defeating the Nazis was worth the losses we suffered.

The people of the RVN were screwed not by our aid but by rather by us cutting off aid and abandoning them. That is what makes the whole effort in vain. We were no longer willing to help and that sealed their fate. If there is any moral to that story it is if you act you have to be willing to go the distance.

We pledged to support them if the Treaty was violated but didn't.  Hmm sounds familiar the West agreed to defend Ukraine in exchange for them giving up their nukes- how did that end up...
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 07:50:PM by scipio_usmc »
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline maggie

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #301 on: October 01, 2015, 08:09:PM »
The US establishing democracies enables self-determination.  Attacking such efforts as being against self-determination is irrational.

The irrational views stem from refusing to face reality and instead looking at things through a biased prism that distorts.

The US should have allowed North Korea to swallow all of Korea, the US should have allowed the Communists to swallow all of Vietnam.  The US should have left dictators in Iraq and Afghanistan instead of establishing democracies....

Did you know that there is a long history of there being 3 very different regions of Vietnam and that this is why the French had it divided into 3 regions.  Did you know that the British were the ones who helped the French to regain control of Vietnam from the Japanese the US wanted to establish an independent country but the UK sides with their French that they should be restored to help justify them keeping possessions as well.  Did you know that the communists used force to take control of North Vietnam and they were fighting not only the French but other Vietnamese.  Did you know they got their weapons from foreign communist forces.  The foreign intervention that enabled the killing is the same characters who armed North Korea and enabled the killing.   Did you know that when the French pulled out that the lower areas were under control of the Vietnamese.   Did you know that the communists launched terrorists attacks throughout Vietnam to destabilize the government and try to get people to stop supporting the government and to thus result in the government collapsing so the communists could take over.  Did you know that the plan was to weaken the government through these efforts then resort to conventional military attacks on government forces. Did you know that after these conventional attacks started is when the US moved in airpower to use against North Vietnam.  Did you know the first US ground forces were used to protect US air bases from attacks because the South Vietnamese forces were too busy fighting invaders to do so.  Did you know the US finally approved US ground forces to go on offensive operations against the North Vietnam because a lot of the South Vietnamese forces would run away when attacked and leave their equipment behind just like the Iraqis did with ISIS.  The US
had forces paired up with the RVN forces to stabilize them and train them better just like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We defended the population from the conventional attacks.  What we could not totally stop was the terrorist attacks only large military units from hurting the population. We took up defensive positions and freed up their forces to carry out offensive operations so they could try clearing enemy from their land. As they became more capable we reduced our ground units leaving them more responsibility for their own defense. 1970 forward we were in the supporting role almost exclusively. The major fighting was done by them with our forces simply helping with supply, training and air support. 

The ultimate argument of people critical of our policy is that we should have let the Chinese and Soviets sponsor a communist takeover.  They say we should have done the same in Korea instead of saving the ROK.  These are the same people who decided to do nothing in Syria and say we should just let Russia help Assad kill anyone who opposes his dictatorial rule. 

The intervention that causes all the problems is praised and welcomed instead of opposed.

The results of such is to support the evil and attack those who want to do good.
I have my opinions, don't expect you to share them.

You simply don't understand what I am saying and chucking insults at me proves nothing.
Think we should agree to differ.

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #302 on: October 02, 2015, 09:34:AM »
The South Vietnamese certainly where not celebrating.

Most of them were.


Offline ngb1066

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #303 on: October 02, 2015, 09:41:AM »


You really have a blinkered and distorted view of the role of the USA in the world since 1945.  I do not have time to answer your points, suffice it to say I do not agree with any of them.  You are on the far right of politics, even in US terms, and that is saying something!

As usual you insult those who disagree with you.  I do not insult you, I just say you are wrong.  That is my opinion, honestly held, based on years of reflection and careful analysis of facts, together with political activity.  I may be wrong, but I am not dishonest or insincere.


Offline nugnug

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #304 on: October 02, 2015, 10:37:AM »
usa cant establish democravcy in the usa how the hell they would anywhere else is beyound me.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 01:33:PM by nugnug »

Offline maggie

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #305 on: October 02, 2015, 11:59:AM »
usa cant establish democravcy in the usa how the hell they would manage anywhere else is beyound me.
Like it  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #306 on: October 02, 2015, 04:00:PM »

You really have a blinkered and distorted view of the role of the USA in the world since 1945.  I do not have time to answer your points, suffice it to say I do not agree with any of them.  You are on the far right of politics, even in US terms, and that is saying something!

As usual you insult those who disagree with you.  I do not insult you, I just say you are wrong.  That is my opinion, honestly held, based on years of reflection and careful analysis of facts, together with political activity.  I may be wrong, but I am not dishonest or insincere.

You have the distorted view not me.  You demonstrated that when you denied the USSR was responsibly for encouraging Germany to attack the West. The USSR carved up Eastern Europe with Germany ensuring the West would be at war with Germany.  He stated outright that his plan was to make both sides exhaust one another then swoop in. He swallowed half of Poland and the West did nothing they only went to war with Germany. His peace agreement with them ensured them their Eastern border was safe and permitted them to deploy most of their forces to invade France. Did he embargo Germany?  No he supplied Germany with food and fuel to help keep their war machine supplied so they could fight the West. These facts are all well known they were even known at the time.  Communist sympathizers have attempted to revise history and their fictional viewpoint is the precise one you push.

Your claim that most South Vietnamese welcomed the invaders is absurd but you do not make any effort to actually offer any proof.  You say you are too busy to be bothered which is what you said in the Stalin debate.

You claim to hate violence but you praised North Vietnam using violence to subjugate the people of South Vietnam and you cheered their attack on because you of amazing immaturity. It takes amazing immaturity to praise attacks because the attacks accomplish sticking a pen in the eye of the US and you can't stand the US so like a pen being stuck in our eye.  Not content with such you make up that this amounted to the US military being defeated and you are glad the US got defeated because you can't stand the US. 

You made up your own babble to make you feel better.  Your fictional account is that the US military was defeated and once driven out the Vietnamese population overthrew the government.  This is nonsense.
The US military left and the people of South Vietnam were scared that the US would not aid them if the peace treaty was broken. They were right to fear such because we didn't help them and they wanted us to help them. They didn't want a tolitarian government to send tanks and a million armed men in to take over their country.  They didn't rise up against the RVN government they actually found jobs in that government including military jobs.  Nor did welcome the population welcome these attackers with open arms. They fled the attackers and fled in such massive numbers that they blocked the roads preventing the military from being able to effectively respond.  They ran to the US embassy begging to be flown out of the country rather than to become subjugated by the communists. There were even physical struggles in an attempt to get inside the US compound.

The US wasn't harmed by the takeover. The few Americans there left.  The harm that fell was to the population that was stuck there and could not be flown out.  Your irrational hatred of the US results in you pretending this hurt the US and being gleeful of that but it didn't.  The takeover hurt the people of South Vietnam not the US. That was why the US government was willing to abandon them.  There was no strategic need to protect South Vietnam in 1975 there was solely a moral one. The US government was unwilling to take up the effort and left South Vietnam high and dry.  Your version which makes you feel good bears no semblance to reality.  It was invented in your mind to make you feel good because reality was too much to tolerate.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline buddy

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #307 on: October 02, 2015, 04:50:PM »
Taking your claims at face value the US should have refused to aid the Allies in WWI and II and should have left things up to the people of Europe.  Even before our military involvement we were providing weapons, fuel and food to the Allies to allow them to fight.  If we didn't provide such aid then WWI would basically have ended in a standstill.  WWII could have been even worse than it was because Germany would have hand more land and power. As it is Germany and Japan would never would have been defeated without American aid anyway.

In the meantime you are comparing past European colonization with modern world efforts to establish democratic governments which are 2 different things.  European colonization was about exploitation of the resources and people of the colonies.  When the cost began to exceed the gains they fled.  Europeans government still have the same mindset.  They are interested today only in economic profits.  They can't wait to do business in Iran so want the sanctions lifted and don't care how horrible the government is just like they didn't care how horrible Saddam was and did so much business with him. 

The only country consistently willing to spill our blood and treasure for liberty is the US but our leaders are schizophrenic because we have elections and different leaders at different times.  If we take the lead and do it some other countries are then willing to get involved and help as well but only if we take the lead and do the bulk of the work.  That is why the US is called the leader of the free world.  When the leader of the free world is lead by morons like Obama the Free World does nothing and evil prevails.

 

 
You snot gobbler you supplied provisions at a cost.
UK were paying the US until about 2010 in reperation.
Meanwhile instan
1. Uk helped in your war in Korea. No charge
2. UK helped in your war in Iraq. No charge
3.UK helped in your war in Afghanistan. no charge.
You didn't give us anything we payed.
If it wasn't for pearl harbour you would not have become involved FACT.
You lot needed us.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #308 on: October 02, 2015, 05:35:PM »
You snot gobbler you supplied provisions at a cost.
UK were paying the US until about 2010 in reperation.
Meanwhile instan
1. Uk helped in your war in Korea. No charge
2. UK helped in your war in Iraq. No charge
3.UK helped in your war in Afghanistan. no charge.
You didn't give us anything we payed.
If it wasn't for pearl harbour you would not have become involved FACT.
You lot needed us.


The UK didn't have to pay back the entire value of Lend-lease aid provided, a good deal was written off,  and the amount the UK was asked to pay back was much smaller than the sum provided.  The amount written off was paid for by the US taxpayer.  This was not unique to the UK the same happened with all Lend-lease aid- we drastically reduced the amount owed.  Most countries didn't even pay the reduced amounts in full. The loans we gave to the UK were for the lend lease items the UK needed for their economy.

"The post-war loan was part-driven by the Americans' termination of the scheme. Under the programme, the US had effectively donated equipment for the war effort, but anything left over in Britain at the end of hostilities and still needed would have to be paid for. But the price would please a bargain hunter - the US only wanted one-tenth of the production cost of the equipment and would lend the money to pay for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_loan

https://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/comment/lendlease070110.pdf

I am the only one who seems to be aware of the facts.

As for the UK joining in the UN operations in Korea, Iraq and NATO operation in Afghanistan why should the US pay the UK for such efforts?  What resources were given to the US?  We used our own we didn't take resources from the UK.  What loans did you give us?  So there is no relevance at all to the issue at hand.

 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #309 on: October 02, 2015, 07:03:PM »
Most of them were.

No they where not, they where begging the US to evacuate them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AiyFF9qOls

Offline David1819

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #310 on: October 02, 2015, 07:11:PM »

You really have a blinkered and distorted view of the role of the USA in the world since 1945.  I do not have time to answer your points, suffice it to say I do not agree with any of them.  You are on the far right of politics, even in US terms, and that is saying something!

As usual you insult those who disagree with you.  I do not insult you, I just say you are wrong.  That is my opinion, honestly held, based on years of reflection and careful analysis of facts, together with political activity.  I may be wrong, but I am not dishonest or insincere.

The far right in the US take a very isolationist stance on foreign matters and simply don't care. I don't understand your reasons for disliking the US. Both in South Vietnam and South Korea they came to the aid of an ally that asked for their help. Many people also fail to remember that the US army had a presence in Vietnam before the war even started, The French allowed them to built airforce bases there in WW2.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #311 on: October 03, 2015, 04:57:AM »
The far right in the US take a very isolationist stance on foreign matters and simply don't care. I don't understand your reasons for disliking the US. Both in South Vietnam and South Korea they came to the aid of an ally that asked for their help. Many people also fail to remember that the US army had a presence in Vietnam before the war even started, The French allowed them to built airforce bases there in WW2.

The far left and far right both are isolationist in their views.  The far left and right disagree on social issues and economics. 

Even if one hates the US, it is irrational to applaud people being harmed because you perceive it as harming US interests.  The fake narrative was created by anti-American revisionists and socialists that the RVN wanted the communist takeover and that the US stood in the way of this nationalistic movement and that is the narrative NGB is pushing.

The US didn't want Indochina restored to French control but the UK and France got the US to relent. The US first choice was for China to take responsibility.

Popular history has it that Ho Chi Minh did a lot against the Japanese and aided the US a great deal but the reality is he did little and had only a few insignificant dealings with the US.

His rag tag communist forced declared independence though they took over control of just a few areas where the Japanese pulled out of because of their surrender.  The Japanese gave them their weapons and some even stayed on and trained them.  The Chinese took over these Northern areas on behalf of the allies and Ho's men fled. The Japanese remained in control of the South. Eventually the French forces were freed and the Chinese and Japanese left and the French took over Indochina. 

Vietnam was divided into 3 parts under French rule. This is because the people in the areas were so different. There were plenty of minorities as well. The notion of their being a single Vietnam was a complete fiction made up by revisionists it was a hodgepodge more like Yugoslavia. That is one of the reasons why China didn't want permanent responsibility for the area. 

There were many different groups that wanted independence. The communist killed the leaders of the groups and basically took control of all of them in such manner to turn it into a communist movement.

After the communist takeover of China the communists armed Ho (with a lot of the weapons they captured from the Nationalist forces that fled to Taiwan they left their weapons behind and is why they had many Western weapons) and that is when his followers began in earnest to fight the French.

The US provided military aid to the French. The French public got sick of it and decided to leave. That is when the US was asked by South Vietnam for direct aid. Popular fiction is that the US installed a puppet but that is not true we supplied the government that formed under the peace deal that resulted in the French leaving.  Nor is it true that the Vietcong was a South Vietnamese entity.  The organizers were all from North Vietnam they infiltrated into South Vietnam.  Until 1960 it was mainly a terrorist campaign.  Then it escalated into regiments and even division from North Vietnam operating there.  Some were NVA AKA North Vietnamese regulars.  Others were Vietcong regiments which the cadre (officers and noncoms) North Vietnamese soldiers and the rest were a mix of people who came from North Vietnam or were in South Vietnam already but were impressed into service willingly or unwillingly.

The Vietcong were absolutely decimated after the Tet Offensive.  Teh Tet offensive was a major conventional attack.  The counterattack from the US and RVN forces wiped out most of these forces.  The remainder of the cadre were largely killed during US counterinsurgency operations. The few Vietcong regiments that remained failed miserably in operations in 1970 and 1971 and basically after that they were discontinued.  They were reconstituted in name only by naming some units of the North Vietnamese Army Vietcong regiments.

Post Tet the ARVN units began to fight much better than in the past.  They essentially copied the US military- they even had Vietnamese Marines, Rangers etc.  They had some Americans helping lead them but began carrying on most of the fighting themselves with US airpower assisting them. The North Vietnamese suffered comparable casualties against them that the US inflicted.  The ARVN was suffering considerably less casualties than the enemy.   This meant there was a stalemate. This and US bombing of the North forced the to give up and agree to a peace deal.

In order to get South Vietnam to agree to peace Nixon secretly promised that if the treaty were violated we would assist them again. We stuck to the treaty and cut our aid to the RVN.   The USSR and China began providing much more aid than in the past particularly the Chinese they flooded Vietnam with weapons even tanks and planes.  They helped build a million man army.  They didn't do it for nothing. They did it to enable the communist government to take over all of Vietnam.

They knew from the past that US airpower would decimate their large scale attacks so they started out with a limited attack that the South Vietnamese was dealing with but they were low on fuel, ammunition and asked the US not only for such aid but for US airpower assistance.  Nixon was busy with Watergate and had no intention of going back because it would mean the need to stay committed forever like in Korea.  Vietnam had no strategic value that he deemed would warrant such commitment. So he rebuked the.  The Vietnamese saw the US refused to reengage and then launched a full scale invasion. Without US advice their planners responded ineptly. But even when they did know what to do try a counterattack fuel problems or refugees blocking the roads stood in their way.  Many soldiers went home to try to defend their home villages instead of staying with their units. Obviously they would be totally ineffective in small bands against a massive conventional force.   They managed to hold out longer than the French did against the Nazis but that's not much of a feat!

The US military was defeated fiction is just that a fiction.  The lesson enemies got from this is that eventually the US will tire and leave and then after the US is gone they can renew the struggle.  This is the strategy Saddam had in mind that is why he organized an insurgent force even before the invasion happened. He didn't expect to be caught and killed.  It's the strategy the terrorists in Iraq had in mind. It's the strategy the Taliban still have in mind. Of course the North Vietnamese had something the Taliban currently lacks.  The Taliban were initially supplied by Pakistan but their aid now is not from government entities but simply ordinary Pakistani extremists.  That's far different from the DRV being supplied by China and the USSR with heavy weapons.  They can still do damage to various villages and towns but have little hope of taking over all of Afghanistan.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline lookout

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #312 on: October 03, 2015, 10:08:AM »
U.S.A - worrying ?

Offline maggie

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #313 on: October 03, 2015, 10:16:AM »
U.S.A - worrying ?
Donald Trump?......  say no more  ;D

Offline ngb1066

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Re: Russia - worrying?
« Reply #314 on: October 03, 2015, 11:38:AM »
No they where not, they where begging the US to evacuate them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AiyFF9qOls

A tiny minority.