There were no ballistic tests done, until after bodies were cremated, puzzle?

[shonapugs]

No, Mike. We will not end up losing. You are so set in your ways, fair play, but we see the bigger picture. We actually see what you have shown us. A young woman, caught by suprise, not able to save her children, not having any idea of what was happening on that night - she would have fought like a tiger if she could. Someone blundered into that house, did what they were paid to do,and an entire generation was wiped out. It wasn't Sheila. Look again, Mike.

[mike tesko]

No, Mike. We will not end up losing. You are so set in your ways, fair play, but we see the bigger picture. We actually see what you have shown us. A young woman, caught by suprise, not able to save her children, not having any idea of what was happening on that night - she would have fought like a tiger if she could. Someone blundered into that house, did what they were paid to do,and an entire generation was wiped out. It wasn't Sheila. Look again, Mike.

-------------------

It was Sheila, she shot the others...

What concerns me, is that EP covered up the true circumstances of how Sheila died inside the bedroom at whf...

[mike tesko]

Ann Eaton, Stop trying to fool us all into thinking that Jeremy could have been / was guilty...

If you want to talk to me on a one to one basis, send me a private email, and we will meet up to discuss the case...

[Hartley]

Now I'm confused. 

[shonapugs]

Mike, it's late, I'm knackered, but still I fight. Right. If Sheila killed her family on that night, she would have been covered in blood (especially Ralph's), her whole upper body would have shown signs of gun residue, her hands and nails would have been damaged, her feet would have been dirty and blood-stained, and the gun would have been PLASTERED in her prints. Stop the conspiracy theories. Look how she ended up, dragged into place, with her hair and nightdress pulled up behind her. How could she have placed the bible after she was dead?

[bob]

Listen, you have got all of this wrong - there was more than one gun used in these shootings...

Relatives were right to be suspicious, but they pinned their suspicions upon JB being the killer, when all along they should have been looking at the way EP handled this investigation from the outset...

So are you saying EP shot Sheila then Mike?

[smiffy]

Mike's view that Ralph had to have been in the chair(essentially upright but slumped) appears to be the correct view to take.
A key element in my view are the reports of blood spilling/oozing from his body in significant levels when the police were in the kitchen.
Now think... If Ralph was in this tipped up position (as pictured) all along then the blood would have stopped spilling /oozing from him long before the police entered.  A significant change in his body orientation seems responsible for allowing blood previously retained in him to flow once in the later position.

All this gunshot residue nonsense on clothes. A key factor in wether a gun user gets contaminated clothes is down to how far they are from the end of the barrel.  Many people assume from films and tv programmes that gunshot residue is to be expected in virtually every case. This is jumping to wrong assumptions. For handguns/revolvers etc and short barrelled firearms then it will be far more likely for its user to be contaminated with gunshot residue than with longer barreled weapons.

When an investigation is not carried out properly then any claimed evidence or non evidence arrising from this "investigation" is questionable in terms of credibility and reliability.

[Kaldin]

but didnt ralph say "come quickly, shiela has gone crazy and has got the gun" ?

-----------------------

I take the point you are making but consider this:-

(1) " Come quickly, Sheila has gone crazy and has got the gun"
(2) " Come Quickly, She has gone crazy and has got the gun"
(3) " Come quickly, He has got the gun"

Why would Nevill say "he" or "she" unless he thought Jeremy was a mind reader?

[Kaldin]

Mike I think you are mistaken, I'm a he not a she. Make your mind up you said you didn't want the pictures last week. 

I'm not going into the angle of the dangle with you again, it serves no purpose.

I will leave this thread with one observation though, the police officer statements say that Ralph was found in the tipped over position, in this position he was visible from the window.

--------------

First of all, I know you are a he, I know all about you, who you are, and so what?

I don't hold it against you...

But you are wrong, Ralph was found sat on the chair behind the door, leaning forward - according to the pocketbook entries of PI "Bob' Miller...

Now, there was a delay of about seven minutes (7:37am) before the police inside the house were able to displace his body by toppling it over...

Listen...

Stop playing games, and get the facts right - produce your version of a person sat in  a chair behind the door that we are talking about, as viewed from the vantage point of being stood outside the kitchen  window, and I will gladly shut up and you will never hear from me again, if it is possible to see a body sat there on achair, as viewed from the window...

Go for it...

Shut mer up, or shut up yourself, and stop talking absolute nonsense - I have been there at that window and I have looked through the window into the kitchen, you cannot see any body sat there on a chair behind that door, the angle is too acute...

Now if you want to call me a liar, get your relatives to prosecute me as a trespasser, and we will sort the matter out in court...

Can you please answer this question...

If someone was sat on a chair behind the internal door and there was another person who was standing outside the kitchen window looking in, would that person be able to see the person sat on the chair?

Yes, or no?

Bob Miller couldn't know that Nevill was on a chair inside the door - he could only surmise that. If nobody could see a body from the window, and they had to force the door, he could only assume that it was Nevill's body which was blocking the door. He couldn't know the exact position of the body prior to them getting into the kitchen. Bob Miller did not go into the kitchen at the time anyway.

Do you not think it's possible that Nevill was behind the door but he was leaning forward enough for someone to see his head from the window?

By the way, I don't think anyone would prosecute you as a trespasser. I think you have to do some damage for that to happen, and you didn't do any damage.

If you have a photo which proves that nobody could have seen a body behind the door, you should post it or send it to Jeremy's lawyers or the CCRC and ask them to follow it up - preferably by asking PC Collins what exactly he saw from the window.

[Roch]

Listen, you have got all of this wrong - there was more than one gun used in these shootings...

Relatives were right to be suspicious, but they pinned their suspicions upon JB being the killer, when all along they should have been looking at the way EP handled this investigation from the outset...

So are you saying EP shot Sheila then Mike?

I've been wondering for some time if there is an inference in some of Mike's posts that EP were involved.  It's unstated.  But it's an option that seems to be being left open.  I assume it would be a scenario involving an armed Sheila but i don't know how it fits in with her wounds.  However, Mike also mentions Sheila committing suicide.  But there's also a question as to which weapons were used.  Mike has indicated that this could be a multiple weapon crime. 

Looking at the Sheila initially found in kitchen scenario, I asked whether Sheila could have got hold of a TFU weapon, for example, if such a weapon had been 'stood down' (literally rested somewhere) because the house was believed to have been made secure after being searched.  Pure speculation on my part.. but.. if such a thing had happened, there might have been a strong argument within EP that knowledge of it would need to remain internal and restricted. 

Then there's the different sized entry wounds, which I'm not sure can be explained easily by angle / distance / area of body.  It becomes a can of worms if you allow yourself to consider the crime along those lines.  I think I've read that there should have been an inventory of weapons and ammo upon both issue and return.  If this is true and it is being withheld, in my mind this doesn't seem to help dispel any 'absurd' notion that EP were in some way involved. 

Then there's Bamber's initial response that TFU were responsible for his family being killed.

[Jackiepreece]

I think the bottom line with this thread is we all know there was serious problems with the police handling of this case and we are never going to get to the truth if there are so many items still held under PII I know for a fact the defence team are still trying to get hold of the photos but they have been given every excuse not to disclose them ie blurred photos  etc

Fact is there is no evidence Jeremy was at the farm that night so take that leaves either a hit man but there is absolutely no evidence of that at all and if Jeremy was going to use a hit man I am sure he would have made sure he had an alibi

That leaves Sheila and nobody on here can prove she didn't  carry out the murders and you can look at forensic evidence forever but everyone knows the crime scene was not forensically sound.

When you add into the mix the relatives magically finding the silencer in a cupboard that had already been searched by the police the investigation takes a sinister turn.

Who would benefit out of the murders and was there a motive for the relatives to plant a silencer in that cupboard

I think the next step would be to see what financial position the relatives were in and could they have acted the way they did after the murders because they were in dire straits.


It is well documented r Boutflours made enquires about who would inherit on Jeremys conviction

In the midst of their grief why would relatives be hell bent on Jeremy being convicted why not just leave the police to do their job

Desperate times call for desperate measures

Jeremy didn't seem to be desperate about anything that August his life seemed to be jogging along quite nicely

And if you are reading this the ccrc remember with great power comes great responsibility

[Hartley]

Who would benefit from the murders? I think that would be JB wouldn't it?

[andrea]

good points jackie

[mike tesko]

No, Mike. We will not end up losing. You are so set in your ways, fair play, but we see the bigger picture. We actually see what you have shown us. A young woman, caught by suprise, not able to save her children, not having any idea of what was happening on that night - she would have fought like a tiger if she could. Someone blundered into that house, did what they were paid to do,and an entire generation was wiped out. It wasn't Sheila. Look again, Mike.

----------------

Interesting comments...

The bigger picture, as you put it, is that the case against Jeremy has been / was manufactured...

[mike tesko]

Who would benefit from the murders? I think that would be JB wouldn't it?

-------------------

You know full well who benefited from the deaths, and how those who thought they should benefit, all got their heads together and made out a case, or a scenario for JB to be the killer...

You know as well as I do that the relatives were upset about finding out nothing from the Bamber estates was coming to any of them...

We4 all know why certain relatives went out of their way to promote the idea that JB killed everyone....