Two bodies in the kitchen. A time for closure ?

[mike tesko]

The blood trail began on the stairs-landing.

But...

Was Neville Bamber coming up the main stairs, or escaping downwards?

Moreover, was the 'O' type blood associated with 'the' shooting of Neville Bamber, or one or other of the two child victims in its tragedy, who all shared the all important 'O' type blood group!

[Adam]

No, I don't believe they do.
But if the argument is to be used against JB that Nevill could have 'landed one on him' then the same must hold true for his ability to land one on Sheila too.

It would seem he could land none on either of them, so it was an utterly futile argument.

Nevill would have used his 9 inch and 8 stone advantage to fall on Sheila. Rather than wrestle for the rifle.

Although Nevill would have instantly negated the situation while fully fit.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Nevill would have used his 9 inch and 8 stone advantage to fall on Sheila. Rather than wrestle for the rifle.

Although Nevill would have instantly negated the situation while fully fit.

I have no idea what he would have done, but working on the assumption he was already quite badly injured, he was always at a bit of a disadvantage. Even if not not injured, facing an assailant in the possession of a loaded gun is always going to be a tricky proposition!

I can imagine adrenalin flowing from the assailant and Nevill, but the evidence is there for all to see... Nevill ended up dead and neither Sheila nor Jeremy had much of a mark on them.

[Adam]

I have no idea what he would have done, but working on the assumption he was already quite badly injured, he was always at a bit of a disadvantage. Even if not not injured, facing an assailant in the possession of a loaded gun is always going to be a tricky proposition!

I can imagine adrenalin flowing from the assailant and Nevill, but the evidence is there for all to see... Nevill ended up dead and neither Sheila nor Jeremy had much of a mark on them.

The evidence is Nevill wrestled for the rifle.

If Nevill was badly weakened, he would have used his body weight to fall on Sheila. If he still had some strenght, he would have got the rifle back.

Nevill also had the opportunity to negate the situation with Sheila while fully fit. Which he would have instantly done. He did not have this option with Bamber.

[mike tesko]

This is my personnel offer to two members of our forum - I invite two of you to come and stay with me, between next Friday until Monday morning, this next weekend with me here at my Home Address, 29 Fenn Road, Tankersley, Barnsley, South Yorkshire, postcode, S75 3DE, with a view of observing the stack of documentary evidence contained in my possession, and whoever takes up this opportunity may take a copy of any part of such material of interest to you.

I am offering sleep over facilities, consisting of three nights, Friday, Saturday and Sunday night, for anyone who wants to discuss the case, or who would like to hear at first blush, my opinions about this case, what took place, and what I know took place, or which occurred...

I only offer an opportunity to someone interested in getting to the truth, I cannot afford to feed you, and you are welcome to express your opinion, irrespective of your belief, that Jeremy Bamber killed off his sister, or not...

Are you the one of the two members to which I willingly make this offer? Are you the someone brave enough to contrast the devils advocate in this matter, are you the someone who can face direct contact with me, and discuss privately aspects of the investigation?

[TheBrilliantMistake]

The evidence is Nevill wrestled for the rifle.

If Nevill was badly weakened, he would have used his body weight to fall on Sheila. If he still had some strenght, he would have got the rifle back.

Nevill also had the opportunity to negate the situation with Sheila while fully fit. Which he would have instantly done. He did not have this option with Bamber.

No Adam, he MAY have done so.
I do not dispute he was his with the rifle butt - that is not the debate.
The debate is what Nevill, could or could not have achieved in a fight, given his injuries, and the truth is, we do not know. We can guess as much as we like, much like which of two boxers is about to land the knockout blow, but we can never be certain.

He was injured - just how debilitating is difficult to assess. All that we do know is that he ended up dead, so whoever he fought, he lost.

Now, my original argument was in response to Lookout claiming surely Nevill could have landed one on Jeremy. IF that were true, it would also be true of Sheila. So it is a totally moot point.
In either case, he clearly didn't manage to land one on his assailant.

When you say 'he WOULD have' - none of us know what he would have done. I don't know what I would have done. We can guess, that is all.
We call all presuppose what we would do in a given situation, but until that situation arrives, it's guesswork. To second guess another person in that situation is even more guesswork.

He MAY, or he MIGHT is a much better way to express things than a definitive 'he WOULD'.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

This is my personnel offer to two members of our forum - I invite two of you to come and stay with me, between next Friday until Monday morning, this next weekend with me here at my Home Address, 29 Fenn Road, Tankersley, Barnsley, South Yorkshire, postcode, S75 3DE, with a view of observing the stack of documentary evidence contained in my possession, and whoever takes up this opportunity may take a copy of any part of such material of interest to you.

I am offering sleep over facilities, consisting of three nights, Friday, Saturday and Sunday night, for anyone who wants to discuss the case, or who would like to hear at first blush, my opinions about this case, what took place, and what I know took place, or which occurred...

I only offer an opportunity to someone interested in getting to the truth, I cannot afford to feed you, and you are welcome to express your opinion, irrespective of your belief, that Jeremy Bamber killed off his sister, or not...

Are you the one of the two members to which I willingly make this offer? Are you the someone brave enough to contrast the devils advocate in this matter, are you the someone who can face direct contact with me, and discuss privately aspects of the investigation?

Or just scan and release it.

[mike tesko]

Or just scan and release it.

I un-arrest my case - I have nothing to hide...

Either, come and spend three nights amongst the mountain of evidence in my possession. or ignore it...

[TheBrilliantMistake]

I un-arrest my case - I have nothing to hide...

Either, come and spend three nights amongst the mountain of evidence in my possession. or ignore it...

I would say either publish and refer to it, or ignore it.

Giving it to me will persuade one (at best) publishing it might persuade many, and the courts.

Publish it.

[mike tesko]

The successful applicants will enjoy a private bedroom all to themselves, and be responsible for purchasing food of their like, and travelling expenses, to here and back to your place....

Retired Essex police Officers involved in the original investigation process are very welcome!

[Adam]

No Adam, he MAY have done so.
I do not dispute he was his with the rifle butt - that is not the debate.
The debate is what Nevill, could or could not have achieved in a fight, given his injuries, and the truth is, we do not know. We can guess as much as we like, much like which of two boxers is about to land the knockout blow, but we can never be certain.

He was injured - just how debilitating is difficult to assess. All that we do know is that he ended up dead, so whoever he fought, he lost.

Now, my original argument was in response to Lookout claiming surely Nevill could have landed one on Jeremy. IF that were true, it would also be true of Sheila. So it is a totally moot point.
In either case, he clearly didn't manage to land one on his assailant.

When you say 'he WOULD have' - none of us know what he would have done. I don't know what I would have done. We can guess, that is all.
We call all presuppose what we would do in a given situation, but until that situation arrives, it's guesswork. To second guess another person in that situation is even more guesswork.

He MAY, or he MIGHT is a much better way to express things than a definitive 'he WOULD'.

Obviously in a fight, the person with an 8 stone and 9 inch advantage would use it.

Either to brush Sheila aside when fully fit. Or partially fit. Or if too badly injured, he would just fall on Sheila.

The evidence shows there was a huge kitchen fight where Nevill wrestled for the rifle. There is no possibility Sheila would have won the kitchen fight.

None of the above applies to Bamber. Nevill also never had the opportunity to tackle him when fully fit. 

[Kaldin]

Obviously in a fight, the person with an 8 stone and 9 inch advantage would use it.

Either to brush Sheila aside when fully fit. Or partially fit. Or if too badly injured, he would just fall on Sheila.

The evidence shows there was a huge kitchen fight where Nevill wrestled for the rifle. There is no possibility Sheila would have won the kitchen fight.

None of the above applies to Bamber. Nevill also never had the opportunity to tackle him when fully fit.

I don't agree with that at all. 

[mike tesko]

I would say either publish and refer to it, or ignore it.

Giving it to me will persuade one (at best) publishing it might persuade many, and the courts.

Publish it.

I need to talk personally to two or more, members of our forum...

[mike tesko]

I am only offering this latest opportunity until Wednesday of the forthcoming week!

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Obviously in a fight, the person with an 8 stone and 9 inch advantage would use it.

Either to brush Sheila aside when fully fit. Or partially fit. Or if too badly injured, he would just fall on Sheila.

The evidence shows there was a huge kitchen fight where Nevill wrestled for the rifle. There is no possibility Sheila would have won the kitchen fight.

None of the above applies to Bamber. Nevill also never had the opportunity to tackle him when fully fit.

Adam, I genuinely do no understand the scenario you're describing. Spell it out for me.
Are you describing a scenario in which Sheila is holding the loaded gun, or one in which she isn't?

Either way, the manner in which a man might overcome his daughter is still conjecture and highly dependent on circumstance and location etc. A man might be very reluctant to use force against a woman, even in the most dire of circumstances, whilst another man might have no qualms in the most trivial.

It is just wrong to presume how he would have set about tackling her, and it's largely pointless as whoever he did tackle came off the better.

I don't disagree that 61 year old reasonably fit male would normally overpower a light 28 year old untrained female. Against a fit 24 year old male, it's another matter - but these circumstances were extraordinary in every way, and we simply can't (and shouldn't) presuppose anything.