Two bodies in the kitchen. A time for closure ?

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Mike, that makes very little sense.
The officers who thought they say a woman later said it turned out to be Nevill.
Had Sheila gone upstairs, then it would come as a very big surprise that she'd head to her parents room, rather than her own, or the boys. Then collased on Nevill's side of the bed. She could have collapsed at any point downstairs, or on the stairs, but managed to make it all the way to the bed of the man she'd just killed and collapsed there...

On top of that, the police want to cover this up! - why? there still is no motive to do so, and the operation is far from botched. There would have been nothing wrong with a scenario where Sheila HAD been seen, presumed dead (but wasn't), then moved herself upstairs to commit suicide.

Why then stage manage anything?

Also, you are then having to involve other people in the supposed 'setting of the scene' - so multiple officers involved and SOCO?
It simply beggars belief.

A disturbed body in the heat of the moment - I can believe in.
A bent copper telling the story his way - I can believe in.
A familiar close knit team of coppers conspiring - I can believe in.

But the evidence just doesn't stack up. The confused logs stating '1 dead male, i dead female' are exactly that - confused logs. The logs also state ALL lights on' (they weren't) and two dogs barking (only one inside the house).

If they've falsified logs too, then why not rectify these issues too?

For me personally, I think JB did it. There is possibly a chance Sheila did it, but the evidence is weak (imo).

The only real mistake the police made was being too quick to presume murder+suicide, and potentially lost a lot of evidence as a result.

[lookout]

I've always said that there must have been something which indicated that it was a murder/suicide for " Taff " to have made his instant decision. So why won't EP release what files/documents/ photo's they have and let us decide ? It would appear that after all this time that there's information that EP don't want the public to see/read. Suspicious or what ?

[TheBrilliantMistake]

I've always said that there must have been something which indicated that it was a murder/suicide for " Taff " to have made his instant decision. So why won't EP release what files/documents/ photo's they have and let us decide ? It would appear that after all this time that there's information that EP don't want the public to see/read. Suspicious or what ?

Yes - the fact that JB had told them all the backstory, and the phone call, and at that point there was no reason to disbelieve what had been said.
The entire operation was based around Sheila holding them hostage or a murder suicide scenario.

Once inside the farm, the whole scene still indicated what they had imagined. Murder suicide, and Sheila's position with gun only confirmed that.

It was quite understandable why that happened - either because it was the truth, or it was set up to look that way. Both scenarios offer a clear explanation of why such an assumption was made.

The struggle is Nevill was arguably the only fly in the ointment, but in comparison to the rest of the visible evidence (at that time), it was a pretty sound assumption.

[mike tesko]

Wouldn't there be blood on Nevill's side of the bed?

I take it, you are referring to blood from Sheila Caffell from the initial bullet entry wound...

But, by the time she arrived upstairs on her parents bed, any blood which had flowed from that first bullet entry wound, had already coagulated or dried, and therefore because she did not receive the second fatal shot until after her body was lifted from on top of the bed, to the bedroom floor, any spilled blood from the second wound would have leaked onto parts of her own body, her nightdress, and of course, the bedroom carpet!

[lookout]

Yes - the fact that JB had told them all the backstory, and the phone call, and at that point there was no reason to disbelieve what had been said.
The entire operation was based around Sheila holding them hostage or a murder suicide scenario.

Once inside the farm, the whole scene still indicated what they had imagined. Murder suicide, and Sheila's position with gun only confirmed that.

It was quite understandable why that happened - either because it was the truth, or it was set up to look that way. Both scenarios offer a clear explanation of why such an assumption was made.

The struggle is Nevill was arguably the only fly in the ointment, but in comparison to the rest of the visible evidence (at that time), it was a pretty sound assumption.

You can't tell me that a 6ft 4 strong farmer couldn't have planted one on Jeremy, even if it was to prove that Nevill had tried to defend himself. Not a scratch from Sheila using her well manicured talons, or even a crack at the back of the head with a pan from June. There were 3 adults inside that farmhouse !!

[mike tesko]

Where did Sheila shoot Nevill, Mike?

Jeremy told me and that conversation was recorded by prison security and added by way of transcript and a reference to Jeremy's admission to me, concerning his responsibility for him being directly involved in the murders of the other four family member victims, that he was involved in the murders of four members of his family!

Neville Bamber was downstairs when other members of his family were being shot at and murdered. He was shot at initially when he attempted to investigate what was happening upstairs as he set about climbing the main stair case, and then finished off downstairs in the main kitchen..

[mike tesko]

Jeremy told me and that conversation was recorded by prison security and added by way of transcript and a reference to Jeremy's admission to me, concerning his responsibility for him being directly involved in the murders of the other four family member victims, that he was involved in the murders of four members of his family!

Neville Bamber was downstairs when other members of his family were being shot at and murdered. He was shot at initially when he attempted to investigate what was happening upstairs as he set about climbing the main stair case, and then finished off downstairs in the main kitchen..

My enquiries reveal that of the eight shots received by Neville Bamber 'one was inflicted on the main stairs' when he attempted to investigate happenings upstairs in bedrooms (once), and 'the remaining seven shots' he  received in the general vicinity of the main kitchen!

[TheBrilliantMistake]

You can't tell me that a 6ft 4 strong farmer couldn't have planted one on Jeremy, even if it was to prove that Nevill had tried to defend himself. Not a scratch from Sheila using her well manicured talons, or even a crack at the back of the head with a pan from June. There were 3 adults inside that farmhouse !!

I can tell you an injured man in his 60s facing a fit 24 year old with a gun stands a slim chance of coming out on top. 'Planting one on him' is not really so practical in the face of a firearm. I would seem that whoever he fought - Sheila or Jeremy, he lost. So, if it wasn't Jeremy he fought with, it was Sheila, so surely he should have 'planted one' on her with even greater ease - but that didn't happen either.

The evidence suggests he fought with someone. Of the two (Sheila, or Jeremy), Jeremy would be the stronger and fitter and more likely to come out on top. Do you accept that much?

[mike tesko]

I can tell you an injured man in his 60s facing a fit 24 year old with a gun stands a slim chance of coming out on top. 'Planting one on him' is not really so practical in the face of a firearm. I would seem that whoever he fought - Sheila or Jeremy, he lost. So, if it wasn't Jeremy he fought with, it was Sheila, so surely he should have 'planted one' on her with even greater ease - but that didn't happen either.

The evidence suggests he fought with someone. Of the two (Sheila, or Jeremy), Jeremy would be the stronger and fitter and more likely to come out on top. Do you accept that much?

Essex police know full well, that Sheila was not shot and killed by Jeremy, or any third party relative or friend (ie - Ralph Neville, or another non Essex police officer involvement) and that she was killed in rather complicated circumstances which will not ever be admitted publicly..

[David1819]

I can tell you an injured man in his 60s facing a fit 24 year old with a gun stands a slim chance of coming out on top. 'Planting one on him' is not really so practical in the face of a firearm. I would seem that whoever he fought - Sheila or Jeremy, he lost. So, if it wasn't Jeremy he fought with, it was Sheila, so surely he should have 'planted one' on her with even greater ease - but that didn't happen either.

The evidence suggests he fought with someone. Of the two (Sheila, or Jeremy), Jeremy would be the stronger and fitter and more likely to come out on top. Do you accept that much?

Does a man in his 60s already shot four times stand much chance against a 28 year old either? 

[mike tesko]

The evidence suggests he fought with someone. Of the two (Sheila, or Jeremy), Jeremy would be the stronger and fitter and more likely to come out on top. Do you accept that much?

You ignore the fact, that under the circumstances of Neville Bambers body being toppled over as a result of the raid team entering the main kitchen by means of the internal kitchen / rear hallway door, and the toppling forward of his body which resulted in his head ending up secured inside the rim of a coal hod at the nearside of the kitchen aga, that any facial injuries he obtained, that such injuries may have been caused by the fact that his face and his head, may have come into contact with the metal rim of the raid coal hod!

[lookout]

I can tell you an injured man in his 60s facing a fit 24 year old with a gun stands a slim chance of coming out on top. 'Planting one on him' is not really so practical in the face of a firearm. I would seem that whoever he fought - Sheila or Jeremy, he lost. So, if it wasn't Jeremy he fought with, it was Sheila, so surely he should have 'planted one' on her with even greater ease - but that didn't happen either.

The evidence suggests he fought with someone. Of the two (Sheila, or Jeremy), Jeremy would be the stronger and fitter and more likely to come out on top. Do you accept that much?

I don't expect that Nevill had been the type to hit a woman whatever the situation. As in the past he'd been able to calm Sheila during a psychotic attack and Nevill had perhaps thought with the help of Jeremy too he might have been able to have avoided so much bloodshed.

One punch from Nevill aimed at Jeremy would have put Jeremy on his back. No problem.

Where would Sheila have been if Jeremy was downstairs bashing his dad ? The phone was working in the upstairs office ?

[mike tesko]

Does a man in his 60s already shot four times stand much chance against a 28 year old either? 

Neville Bamber was 'not shot four times' non fatally upstairs in his bedroom - there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this occurred, as claimed by Essex police, and their counterparts the CPS, there 'exists nothing' to remotely suggest that Neville Bamber had in effect, been 'upstairs in his bedroom' when the shootings started, or ended!

Ask yourselves - 'did Neville Bamber' have human blood? If he did 'why didn't he bleed like every other human being' upon being shot by another person?

It's basically impossible for there not to be 'any blood trail' which starts in the main bedroom, and continues en-route down 'the main stairs', along the 'ground floor passageway' into the main kitchen...

[David1819]

Neville Bamber was 'not shot four times' non fatally upstairs in his bedroom - there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this occurred, as claimed by Essex police, nothing to remotely suggest that Neville Bambers had in effect been upstairs in his bedroom when the shootings started, or ended!

Ask yourselves - did Neville Bambers have human blood? If he did why didn't he bleed like every other human be8ng upon being shot by another person?

It's basically impossible for there not to be any blood trail which starts in the main bedroom, and continues en-route down the main stairs, along the ground floor passageway into the main kitchen...

The blood trail began on the stairs-landing.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Does a man in his 60s already shot four times stand much chance against a 28 year old either? 

No, I don't believe they do.
But if the argument is to be used against JB that Nevill could have 'landed one on him' then the same must hold true for his ability to land one on Sheila too.

It would seem he could land none on either of them, so it was an utterly futile argument.