Two bodies in the kitchen. A time for closure ?

[TheBrilliantMistake]

This isn't strictly correct.  The bodies were reported "found on entry to premises" "one dead male.  one dead female".   Later on, it is recorded that a further three bodies are found (i.e. upstairs). 

What is odd in my opinion is the reference in police statements regarding Collins' looking through the window and making his mistake.  It all seems a bit contrived.

That wasn't recorded by anybody inside the building - it was recorded from HQIR.
At no point did anybody ever say they had found two bodies.
What WAS identified from the outside, were two identifications of a body - one male identification, and one female identification (both in the same place by the door), This was then relayed as 'one male, one female', when all other evidence suggests it was the same body misidentified.
Once inside, the officers identified one dead male - and nobody expressed any 'where is the missing female?' surprise.

At the end of the search, 5 dead was reported, but again, relayed by HQ as 'further three upstairs' (because they thought 2 were downstairs, incorrectly)

[Roch]

That wasn't recorded by anybody inside the building - it was recorded from HQIR.
At no point did anybody ever say they had found two bodies.
What WAS identified from the outside, were two identifications of a body - one male identification, and one female identification (both in the same place by the door), This was then relayed as 'one male, one female', when all other evidence suggests it was the same body misidentified.
Once inside, the officers identified one dead male - and nobody expressed any 'where is the missing female?' surprise.

At the end of the search, 5 dead was reported, but again, relayed by HQ as 'further three upstairs' (because they thought 2 were downstairs, incorrectly)

I understand what you're posting - but TFG were wearing mics, unless I am mistaken.  So they were in ongoing communication, which was being written down and passed on to HQIR.  If they hadn't entered the property, HQIR would not have recorded "found on entry to premises". 

The reasoning provided for the mistaken sexing of Nevill relates to something that allegedly occurred prior to entry - not after entry.

The logs don't state  'One dead Female' (i.e. first and singular) as if what Collins allegedly saw was being communicated and recorded as per relay to HQIR. 

The male is stated first.  The female second. 

[lookout]

Not forgetting that the light was on in the kitchen.

[TheBrilliantMistake]

I understand what you're posting - but TFG were wearing mics, unless I am mistaken.  So they were in ongoing communication, which was being written down and passed on to HQIR.  If they hadn't entered the property, HQIR would not have recorded "found on entry to premises". 

The reasoning provided for the mistaken sexing of Nevill relates to something that allegedly occurred prior to entry - not after entry.

The logs don't state  'One dead Female' (i.e. first and singular) as if what Collins allegedly saw was being communicated and recorded as per relay to HQIR. 

The male is stated first.  The female second.

Again, this comes down to a matter of interpretation. 'On entry' HQIR thought there was a male and female in the kitchen, but that doesn't mean the men on the ground did. It all comes down to whether you believe there was a mistake made at that point or not.

Regarding the comms during the raid itself, it went virtually silent as far as I know, as you might expect, virtual radio silence would be maintained unless there was a pressing need to alert those outside. Chatter from the TFG would be a very bad idea.
I do no believe they were providing running commentary, as this can compromise their location and any element of surprise etc, plus it's distracting.

Personally, I've gone through the alternative interpretation that there was a woman in the kitchen (Sheila would one presume) and how that scenario would play out, but I just can't buy into to Mike's view that the TFG shot her twice and covered it up. If they had, it would have been far easier to say 'we shot her, she was an imminent threat'. But shooting her under the chin? hmmm I just can't buy it.

I do think the reportage of 'two bodies' and '3 further bodies' looks bad, and superficially quite condemning, but I've ran it through my mind 1000 times and always been ok with two glimpsed through a kitchen window with one male identification and one female identification, both referring to the same body. IF that happened, all the rest falls into place for me - it's one error propagated up the reporting line and thus repeated.

[Roch]

Again, this comes down to a matter of interpretation. 'On entry' HQIR thought there was a male and female in the kitchen, but that doesn't mean the men on the ground did. It all comes down to whether you believe there was a mistake made at that point or not.

Regarding the comms during the raid itself, it went virtually silent as far as I know, as you might expect, virtual radio silence would be maintained unless there was a pressing need to alert those outside. Chatter from the TFG would be a very bad idea.
I do no believe they were providing running commentary, as this can compromise their location and any element of surprise etc, plus it's distracting.

Personally, I've gone through the alternative interpretation that there was a woman in the kitchen (Sheila would one presume) and how that scenario would play out, but I just can't buy into to Mike's view that the TFG shot her twice and covered it up. If they had, it would have been far easier to say 'we shot her, she was an imminent threat'. But shooting her under the chin? hmmm I just can't buy it.

I do think the reportage of 'two bodies' and '3 further bodies' looks bad, and superficially quite condemning, but I've ran it through my mind 1000 times and always been ok with two glimpsed through a kitchen window with one male identification and one female identification, both referring to the same body. IF that happened, all the rest falls into place for me - it's one error propagated up the reporting line and thus repeated.

The jury's out for me, whether she was ever in the kitchen at that point.  If she was, she could have been wounded or playing possum.   The TFG may have swept through the house looking for the children and left her in position in the process. Though I admit it seems unlikely.  I still think that if it was the female that was mistakenly spotted first (i.e. Nevill) then this should have been how it was recorded.  But everywhere you look, in every instance, it is male first and female second.

[lookout]

My mind needs refreshing here-----where was Nevill's body in relation to where the window was ?

[David1819]

Again, this comes down to a matter of interpretation. 'On entry' HQIR thought there was a male and female in the kitchen, but that doesn't mean the men on the ground did. It all comes down to whether you believe there was a mistake made at that point or not.

Regarding the comms during the raid itself, it went virtually silent as far as I know, as you might expect, virtual radio silence would be maintained unless there was a pressing need to alert those outside. Chatter from the TFG would be a very bad idea.
I do no believe they were providing running commentary, as this can compromise their location and any element of surprise etc, plus it's distracting.

Personally, I've gone through the alternative interpretation that there was a woman in the kitchen (Sheila would one presume) and how that scenario would play out, but I just can't buy into to Mike's view that the TFG shot her twice and covered it up. If they had, it would have been far easier to say 'we shot her, she was an imminent threat'. But shooting her under the chin? hmmm I just can't buy it.

I do think the reportage of 'two bodies' and '3 further bodies' looks bad, and superficially quite condemning, but I've ran it through my mind 1000 times and always been ok with two glimpsed through a kitchen window with one male identification and one female identification, both referring to the same body. IF that happened, all the rest falls into place for me - it's one error propagated up the reporting line and thus repeated.

I agree. What's written in the log cannot form the basis of an appeal anyway. Not really worth talking about IMO.

[mike tesko]

My mind needs refreshing here-----where was Nevill's body in relation to where the window was ?

Neville's body was not already toppled over when the firearm officers Peered through the window into the main kitchen. This can be borne out by the fact that when the raid team initially tried to enter the main kitchen via the internal kitchen door which separated the main kitchen from the back hallway, entry was delayed because there was something heavy on the other side of that internal door which prevented immediate access to the main kitchen. Another tell tale clue, is that there were two wooden chairs in close proximity to Ralph Neville Bamber, one chair in front of the other, with Neville seated on the rear chair, his body subsequently being toppled forward so that it ended up balanced somewhat precariously on top of the front chair..

The view enjoyed by the firearm officers from outside the kitchen window looking into that area of the kitchen where the all important inner kitchen / hallway door which had something heavy on the kitchen side of that door, can only be a reference to Neville Bamber being sat upon the rear chair, with the large wooden chair in front of him, blocking any view by anyone standing outside the kitchen window looking in being able to see him at all. This would be in addition to the fact that anyone standing outside the kitchen window peering in, would not be able to see the whole of that inner door because of the acute angle involved, resulting in the opening edge of that door not being viewable by the observer(s), together with a restricted view of the bottom portion of the same internal door governed by the kitchen sink and kitchen worktop..

With this in mind, if there had only been one body in the main kitchen at the time when firearm officers peered in through the kitchen window, and that was a reference to Neville Bambers body already toppled over a second wooden chair, with his bloodstained head conveniently entrenched inside the rim of a coal hod, it would have been high on impossible to know whether or not, the body (if that be the case) seen was a female or a male...

I don't believe that Neville Bambers body was already toppled over as shown in the disclosed kitchen crime scene photographs, when the firearm officers peered into the kitchen, and therefore, if it had been, the officers would not have been able to see his body because of the acute angle, and obstruction of/ by the kitchen sink and worktops...

[mike tesko]

Regarding the comms during the raid itself, it went virtually silent as far as I know, as you might expect, virtual radio silence would be maintained unless there was a pressing need to alert those outside. Chatter from the TFG would be a very bad idea.
I do no believe they were providing running commentary, as this can compromise their location and any element of surprise etc, plus it's distracting.

Funny thing, then that those monitoring the open line telephone with its handset off its cradle, situated a matter of feet away from where the body of Neville Bamber and the two large wooden chairs ended up after cops forced open the internal kitchen door forcing the body and chairs to topple in the general direction of where they ended up, that in their police log, it describes noises, disturbance and voices, at the very same time, as the firearm officers set about entering the main kitchen!

[mike tesko]

Funny thing, then that those monitoring the open line telephone with its handset off its cradle, situated a matter of feet away from where the body of Neville Bamber and the two large wooden chairs ended up after cops forced open the internal kitchen door forcing the body and chairs to topple in the general direction of where they ended up, that in their police log, it describes noises, disturbance and voices, at the very same time, as the firearm officers set about entering the main kitchen!

So much for a silent entry with very little noise, or disturbance, or voices!

[mike tesko]

At the end of the search, 5 dead was reported, but again, relayed by HQ as 'further three upstairs' (because they thought 2 were downstairs, incorrectly)

Or..

There had been two bodies downstairs in the kitchen, as recorded, the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female found upon entry, a murder no less, oh and a suicide!

[mike tesko]

So by all accounts the second body mentioned was a female who had committed suicide!

I wonder who that might be a reference to in the circumstances of this drama?

[mike tesko]

I agree. What's written in the log cannot form the basis of an appeal anyway. Not really worth talking about IMO.

Yes, it can - if police have deliberately presented a false account concerning where all the five bodies of the victims had originally been found (the contents of these radio message logs were written contemporaneously, not weeks or months later when the powers that be know what might need to be said, written down as, or spoken about)!

[TheBrilliantMistake]

Funny thing, then that those monitoring the open line telephone with its handset off its cradle, situated a matter of feet away from where the body of Neville Bamber and the two large wooden chairs ended up after cops forced open the internal kitchen door forcing the body and chairs to topple in the general direction of where they ended up, that in their police log, it describes noises, disturbance and voices, at the very same time, as the firearm officers set about entering the main kitchen!

Where is this logged? The only report I saw was of the bog being heard to bark.

[mike tesko]

Where is this logged? The only report I saw was of the bog being heard to bark.

Hang on, give me a moment, please..