Informatives - carried out by a gang of interferring Senior Officers...

[lookout]

 In the 2011 " Master File ",according to AE's notes,she clearly stated that" Sheila on bed bible on chest. Gun beside her.Shot ( through--crossed out ) under chin ".

Now we all know how precise this woman was and how meticulous at including EVERY detail !!

[lookout]

AE's notes were obviously written at the time of the tragedy,as included in her scribes was the fact that she was going to phone Freddie.

[Caroline]

In the 2011 " Master File ",according to AE's notes,she clearly stated that" Sheila on bed bible on chest. Gun beside her.Shot ( through--crossed out ) under chin ".

Now we all know how precise this woman was and how meticulous at including EVERY detail !!

She was repeating what she was told by someone else, if the someone else was repeating what they had been told, it explains the confusion.

[Caroline]

AE's notes were obviously written at the time of the tragedy,as included in her scribes was the fact that she was going to phone Freddie.

Are you saying that ut makes her claim more reliable?

[lookout]

Are you saying that ut makes her claim more reliable?

More or less,as AE didn't miss a thing and had started her notes pretty well from day one,once " Taff " Jones was satisfied with the murder/suicide-----------------and she/they weren't. Though how far she thought that claim would take her,God only knows,as it didn't match up with her/their personal theories.

[mike tesko]

Are you saying you believe that Sheila was shot 'once' by Woodcock on entry to WHF (but wasn't dead) and then again by someone else during the training exercise?

Yes, Sheila was originally shot during an altercation between PS Woodcock and herself downstairs in the kitchen. The shot didn't kill her, it stunned her, knocked her out. Police thought she was dead, and her supposed actual death was reported as part of a series of radio messages passed from within the scene and to the control room, described variously as 'the body of one dead male, AND, the body of one dead female', or 'One dead male, one dead female', or 'can you attend the office because police are dealing with an incident at whf, involving a murder, and a suicide', or 'can you contact the police surgeon, regarding two bodies'...

Jeremy believes that Sheila shot herself once, as police entered the kitchen, and that in the turmoil that followed, she did not succeed to kill herself, but managed to flee upstairs, before shooting herself (again) a second time in the bedroom. Like everyone else, Jeremy is entitled to his opinion, or scenario. I disagree with Jeremy regarding his version in many ways, but I do agree with his suggestion that Sheila was shot once downstairs in the kitchen, and once upstairs in the bedroom...

The shot inflicted upstairs in the bedroom, killed her...

[Caroline]

More or less,as AE didn't miss a thing and had started her notes pretty well from day one,once " Taff " Jones was satisfied with the murder/suicide-----------------and she/they weren't. Though how far she thought that claim would take her,God only knows,as it didn't match up with her/their personal theories.

So you will agree that Jeremy's initial claim that his father called him 'about 03:10' and that he called the police about 10 mins later, is more reliable than recent claims that he called police at 03:36?

[mike tesko]

Evidence of the altercation between Sheila and Woodcock, is visible on the adjacent wall to the internal kitchen door, and the aga surround, where the barrel of Woodcocks weapon came into contact with - the paint sample (RC/1) handed to DS Davidson(SOCO) by DI 'Ron' Cook at the scene, on 8th August 1985, was taken from the aga surround in the kitchen because Woodcocks weapon which had scratched the underside of the red painted kitchen aga, during the struggle between himself and Sheila, had git sone red paint upon the end of its barrel...

[lookout]

So you will agree that Jeremy's initial claim that his father called him 'about 03:10' and that he called the police about 10 mins later, is more reliable than recent claims that he called police at 03:36?

The last thing I read was that his father rang at 3am, ( AE's notes ). Jeremy rang JM at 03.15. In Jeremys' words it was 03.25.   03.26,Jeremy is trying to ring his father back--------03.26,Neville is himself phoning the police--------03.26,Jeremy is phoning the police.Simultaneous calls @ 03.26 mistaken for just one ?

[mike tesko]

Sheila's body had to have been downstairs in the kitchen at the time the raid team entered the farmhouse, in order for the contents of the various radio messages to be accurate and true. Sheila was shot downstairs, she collapsed in the kitchen, and police thought she had been killed - the contents of the various police radio messages is testimony to that /this, so, how can Jeremys version of events be true, how can Sheila have ran upstairs to the bedroom after shooting herself when the police started to smash the farmhouse door open. Since, if that was true, how could police have found two bodies downstairs, a dead male, and a dead female, a murder, and a suicide?

[lookout]

So you will agree that Jeremy's initial claim that his father called him 'about 03:10' and that he called the police about 10 mins later, is more reliable than recent claims that he called police at 03:36?

Not really because there are so many different times given,by police,AE's ( secondhand from whoever ) JM's timings,then Jeremys'. I know that Jeremy was kept waiting on the phone,by the police,for 11 mins.
Clock at the police station was 10mins fast,so how are you supposed to try and work out a time that's anywhere near accurate ?

[Caroline]

The last thing I read was that his father rang at 3am, ( AE's notes ). Jeremy rang JM at 03.15. In Jeremys' words it was 03.25.   03.26,Jeremy is trying to ring his father back--------03.26,Neville is himself phoning the police--------03.26,Jeremy is phoning the police.Simultaneous calls @ 03.26 mistaken for just one ?

Nope, Jeremy said he received a call from his father about 03:10, it took him 10 mins to look up the number for the local police. Now the OS states that he called police at 03:36. Point is you can't change the past to suit and that's what the OS is doing.

[mike tesko]

Nope, Jeremy said he received a call from his father about 03:10, it took him 10 mins to look up the number for the local police. Now the OS states that he called police at 03:36. Point is you can't change the past to suit and that's what the OS is doing.

But it doesn't seem to matter, that Julie Mugford changed the estimated timing of Jeremys call to her from 3.30am, to 3.15am, or sooner, and the the original timing of Jeremys call to police, timed at 3.36am, was changed to 3.26am, retrospectively? So, its a case of, one rule for 'them', but 'different rules' for Jeremy? If anybody has changed the timings to suit the circumstances, it is the police, and its witnesses. The timed police radio messages are another example, of information having been changed, since messages timed at 7.37, 7.38, 7.42, and elsewhere, 7.45am, makes mention of, 'the body of one dead male, and the body of one dead female', or, 'one dead male, one dead female', or, 'can you contact the police surgeon regarding two bodys', or, 'can you attend the office because police are dealing with an incident at whf, involving a murder, and a suicide'...

So, between messages or requests that are recorded between, 7.37 and 7.45am, the messages clearly are dealing with two bodies having been found, once the raid team got into the farmhouse - that is an '8 minute' period of intense activity which quite clearly deals with the discovery or confrontation of two dead bodies, one of the bodys was clearly a male, and the other was clearly a female, the first being referred to as a murder, the second being referred to as a suicide, both references to two dead people, not one, mistaken for the other..,

[mike tesko]

Disturbance of the victims bodies, and the guns, by senior officers, during 'informatives', carried out after 9 O'clock, served to retrospectively effect the recorded evidence contained in those 8 minutes of intense activity which had taken place at the scene, long before the arrival of those senior officers, who changed the course of history in the circumstances of the investigation, by ordering the firearms officers initially to report the incident in thier notebooks, and reports, or witness statements, as a case of 'four murders, and a suicide', which it never was...

The truth of the matter, is that when the six man raid team first set foot into the farmhouse, what they were dealing with was 'four murders'. They didn't actually know this until about 8.10am, that morning, when they finally got upstairs and found the other three bodies. But they must have realised by that stage (8.10am) that Sheila had killed the other four victims. Also, they knew that Sheila was still alive, but had been shot soon after entry, shot by PS Woodcock. He would later be the source from which, DI 'Ron' Cook, would be informed that at least 'one person' from amongst the five victims, 'had been shot', or 'killed', or 'had committed suicide' - words similar to these are printed at the commencement of the typed version of the scenes of crime register. Police refuse to release the hand written version, because it would incriminate many officers in the shooting of Sheila, upstairs and downstairs at the farmhouse, it would establish that senior officers took control of the crime scene before SOCO, it would be proved that a catelog of mistakes were made regarding 'at what stage' Sheila had been pronounced dead, when she wasn't...

If anybody was respinsible for changing tge meaning of information, and altering of times of the alleged events, it was / is the police and its witnesses...

[mike tesko]

Don't let anyone ever forget, those '8 minutes of activity' at the scene, when police were dealing with 'two bodies', not one. They were dealing with 'one dead male', and 'one dead female', and they were dealing with 'a murder', and 'a suicide'. It could never have been a case of the police, 'mistaking one dead body for another' as the police have since claimed, because there is 'no way in a million years of Sundays', that anyoe could remotely suggest that by 7.45am, Police or anybody else, could describe 'Ralph Bambers death' in the kitchen, as 'a suicide', because he had been shot eight times, and according to the police case no weapon was found anywhere near his body in the kitchen...