Author Topic: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?  (Read 86600 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hartley

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #330 on: April 13, 2011, 12:37:PM »
Hartley ...... Many thanks for your answers and I appreciate such a detailed response. I respect that you did not want to debate the answers / views put forward but I'd just like to make 2 small points that you don't need to answer.

No worries.

1) Surely you must agree that Essex Police were in possession of 3 identical silencers? Why? Only the silencer that was kept at the house should have been in their possession. Police records show 2 being handed back to the relatives under signature which confirms for definite EP were in possession of at least 3 silencers in total.

Yes, they collected Robert and David Boutflours sound moderators, why I don't know. They later handed the items back with receipts.
I'm not entirely sure what you are asking here?

2) Tampering with evidence - David Boutflour not only took the silencer away from the scene but he admitted later (in 1991) that he scraped  a large lump of blood off it with a razor blade (apparently because it fascinated him!). if evidence is discovered in a murder trial it should be left where it is and Police / forensics called, not put in the back of a car, driven around, tampered with, blood scraped off it, put on various surfaces and who knows what else. The silencer evidence was not fit to be used in court and David Boutflour should have been arrested for tampering with vital evidence. The Police were never given the opportunity to see this evidence "as discovered" in situ which makes me very very suspicious of it's integrity.

Yeah this is a tricky point to understand and is what accounts for any doubt over the conviction that I do have.
The gun cupboard is underneath the stairs and there are nooks and crannies where the silencer could quite easily have been overlooked by the police, although I really would have expected them to have carried out a more thorough search. Having said that, they did leave a shotgun leaning against the office wall, so who knows.

It's described that the silencer was found on Sat 10/8/85, it was thought that the police case officers would not be on duty until the Monday, so they took it back to Oak Farm. I can sort of see the logic in the sense that I would not want to leave it in place until Monday, during which time it could be removed/stolen etc. Although I think I would have left it alone, called the police and set up camp until they arrived to take it away.
The next thing we hear is that on Mon 12/8/85 Robert Boutflour is talking to DS Jones about the silencer find, however DS Jones hasn't heard anything about it, so Robert tells DS Jones to collect it from Oak Farm, which he does.

All of that still seems quite plausible and acceptable to me in terms of the credibility of the evidence. David Boutflours examination of the silencer is concerning, but I still don't see it having affected the evidence found. I know, yourself and others are likely to disagree, but that's my take on it.

Can you remember where the razor blade scraping is described? I've seen it somewhere, but can't recall where now.

John

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #331 on: April 13, 2011, 12:55:PM »
So the conspiracy theory goes something like this...

Sheila in the midst of a psychotic episode decided to kill everyone around her using the rifle conveniently left loaded on the kitchen table by Jeremy the previous evening.  So one wonders who she shot first and with a gun which did not have a silencer fitted according to Jeremy?  I am quite sure everyone would have been awakened by the first or second shots so we have to wonder why everyone remained in their beds except for Nevill.  Oh yes, Nevill, we cannot forget the hero of the day who went downstairs to confront Sheila....but then again, wasn't everyone else upstairs???  Not very logical is it??

Lets continue.  Assuming Nevill goes down and confronts Sheila before any shots are fired, we are told that Neville was beaten by the attacker yet this was certainly not possible in the case of Sheila...maybe she had help??

So, after beating Nevill she shoots him several times just to make sure and yet nobody awakens upstairs.  We are then led to believe Sheila goes upstairs and shoots the remaining members of the family still in their beds before shooting herself.   No, sorry, first she decides to wash and change and has the wherewithal to put the clothing in a bucket of cold water to help stain removal.  Then she goes downstairs and shoots herself in the kitchen where she is found slumped with Nevill some time later.

But wait, there's more. After being found by the police who apparently couldn't tell a body from a corpse, she walks back upstairs to her mothers bedroom and shoots herself again, this time fatally.

Hmmm...

John

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #332 on: April 13, 2011, 01:00:PM »
I think some people have to read up on the term paranoid schizophrenia since they seem to believe they are all dangerous homicidal maniacs which could not be further from the truth.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/szparanoid.htm

John

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #333 on: April 13, 2011, 01:09:PM »

Just out of interest is there a pattern to the types of murders carried out by schizophrenics? i mean is gun crime more common than knife crime for example?

An Australian study on schizophrenia declares that schizophrenics are three to five times more likely to commit violent crimes than non-schizophrenics. In contrast, another study over a thirteen year period reveals that fewer than 0.2 percent of schizophrenics committed murder. Link

This evidence shows a correlation between death row inmates and schizophrenia, but it cannot be assumed that schizophrenia necessarily causes people to exhibit criminal behaviour.


Offline paulg

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 605
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #334 on: April 13, 2011, 01:11:PM »
So the conspiracy theory goes something like this...

Sheila in the midst of a psychotic episode decided to kill everyone around her using the rifle conveniently left loaded on the kitchen table by Jeremy the previous evening.  So one wonders who she shot first and with a gun which did not have a silencer fitted according to Jeremy?  I am quite sure everyone would have been awakened by the first or second shots so we have to wonder why everyone remained in their beds except for Nevill.  Oh yes, Nevill, we cannot forget the hero of the day who went downstairs to confront Sheila....but then again, wasn't everyone else upstairs???  Not very logical is it??

Lets continue.  Assuming Nevill goes down and confronts Sheila before any shots are fired, we are told that Neville was beaten by the attacker yet this was certainly not possible in the case of Sheila...maybe she had help??

So, after beating Nevill she shoots him several times just to make sure and yet nobody awakens upstairs.  We are then led to believe Sheila goes upstairs and shoots the remaining members of the family still in their beds before shooting herself.   No, sorry, first she decides to wash and change and has the wherewithal to put the clothing in a bucket of cold water to help stain removal.  Then she goes downstairs and shoots herself in the kitchen where she is found slumped with Nevill some time later.

But wait, there's more. After being found by the police who apparently couldn't tell a body from a corpse, she walks back upstairs to her mothers bedroom and shoots herself again, this time fatally.

Hmmm...

Nearly John

Nevill has to have been shot upstairs also, as too many bullet cases are found in the main bedroom.

So, its something like this.

Nevill (June stays asleep)is woken by Sheila with a gun, he goes downstairs and rings Jeremy. Then he goes back upstairs, is shot by Sheila, who also shoots June. He then goes back downstairs, falling about, and caving his skull in on the way (as Sheila didn't give him a battering). Sits down in the chair, and is shot several times in the head.

Sheila then goes back upstairs, finishes off June, then shoots the kids, has a wash. Goes back downstairs, shoots herself in the neck, lacerates her jugular, has a conversation with the police, goes back upstairs, takes her socks off, reads the bible, then shoots herself, whilst the firearms unit are 10 feet away.......got it?

Hartley

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #335 on: April 13, 2011, 01:11:PM »
I think some people have to read up on the term paranoid schizophrenia since they seem to believe they are all dangerous homicidal maniacs which could not be further from the truth.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/szparanoid.htm

Just to add to that. The study being cited that shows schizophrenia sufferers to be more likely to commit murder than mentally sound people, is at a somewhat juxtaposition to the various studies and statistics which show that males are considerably more likely to commit crimes of this nature than females.

In any event, unlikely things happen, however rarely.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 01:12:PM by Hartley »

John

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #336 on: April 13, 2011, 01:16:PM »
So the conspiracy theory goes something like this...

Sheila in the midst of a psychotic episode decided to kill everyone around her using the rifle conveniently left loaded on the kitchen table by Jeremy the previous evening.  So one wonders who she shot first and with a gun which did not have a silencer fitted according to Jeremy?  I am quite sure everyone would have been awakened by the first or second shots so we have to wonder why everyone remained in their beds except for Nevill.  Oh yes, Nevill, we cannot forget the hero of the day who went downstairs to confront Sheila....but then again, wasn't everyone else upstairs???  Not very logical is it??

Lets continue.  Assuming Nevill goes down and confronts Sheila before any shots are fired, we are told that Neville was beaten by the attacker yet this was certainly not possible in the case of Sheila...maybe she had help??

So, after beating Nevill she shoots him several times just to make sure and yet nobody awakens upstairs.  We are then led to believe Sheila goes upstairs and shoots the remaining members of the family still in their beds before shooting herself.   No, sorry, first she decides to wash and change and has the wherewithal to put the clothing in a bucket of cold water to help stain removal.  Then she goes downstairs and shoots herself in the kitchen where she is found slumped with Nevill some time later.

But wait, there's more. After being found by the police who apparently couldn't tell a body from a corpse, she walks back upstairs to her mothers bedroom and shoots herself again, this time fatally.

Hmmm...

Nearly John

Nevill has to have been shot upstairs also, as too many bullet cases are found in the main bedroom.

So, its something like this.

Nevill (June stays asleep)is woken by Sheila with a gun, he goes downstairs and rings Jeremy. Then he goes back upstairs, is shot by Sheila, who also shoots June. He then goes back downstairs, falling about, and caving his skull in on the way (as Sheila didn't give him a battering). Sits down in the chair, and is shot several times in the head.

Sheila then goes back upstairs, finishes off June, then shoots the kids, has a wash. Goes back downstairs, shoots herself in the neck, lacerates her jugular, has a conversation with the police, goes back upstairs, takes her socks off, reads the bible, then shoots herself, whilst the firearms unit are 10 feet away.......got it?

 ;D ;D  I like the bit about having a conversation with the cops!!!   ;D ;D
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 01:16:PM by John »

John

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #337 on: April 13, 2011, 01:18:PM »
I think some people have to read up on the term paranoid schizophrenia since they seem to believe they are all dangerous homicidal maniacs which could not be further from the truth.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/szparanoid.htm

Just to add to that. The study being cited that shows schizophrenia sufferers to be more likely to commit murder than mentally sound people, is at a somewhat juxtaposition to the various studies and statistics which show that males are considerably more likely to commit crimes of this nature than females.

In any event, unlikely things happen, however rarely.

I quite agree Hartley, my comment was aimed at everyone who thinks Paranoid Schizophrenics are all dangerous which they aren't, many are extremely placid individuals.

I asked the question yesterday if Jeremy had any history of mental illness but don't seem to have had any reply. Anybody have any background info on this??
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 01:24:PM by John »

Offline paulg

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 605
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #338 on: April 13, 2011, 01:41:PM »
None thats known.

John

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #339 on: April 13, 2011, 01:49:PM »
According to one of the ITN news reports Nevill was beaten unconscious before being shot 6 times.

Certainly not something Sheila was capable of.

http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1986/10/02/AS021086017/?s=bamber&st=0&pn=1

John

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #340 on: April 13, 2011, 02:00:PM »
It seems that Jeremy did cultivate cannabis on the farm and enjoyed shooting rats which were slowed because they were high on the drug.

Apparently Matthew McDonald was staying with friends on the night of the murder. Could he not have slipped out and then returned...seems very convenient?

One of Mugford's friends, Elizabeth Rimmington, spoke of Jeremy searching round the farmhouse on the day prior to his parent's funeral. He was searching for cash which he believed his father had hidden away.

http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1986/10/09/AS091086026/?s=bamber&st=0&pn=1

Offline jon

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1437
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #341 on: April 13, 2011, 02:01:PM »
I think some people have to read up on the term paranoid schizophrenia since they seem to believe they are all dangerous homicidal maniacs which could not be further from the truth.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/szparanoid.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/8445899/Schizophrenic-apologises-for-killing-British-art-curator-father.html JB has no mental illness's and as been checked for such every two year's for 26 year's !!
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 02:08:PM by jon »

chochokeira

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #342 on: April 13, 2011, 02:06:PM »
I think some people have to read up on the term paranoid schizophrenia since they seem to believe they are all dangerous homicidal maniacs which could not be further from the truth.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/szparanoid.htm

Just to add to that. The study being cited that shows schizophrenia sufferers to be more likely to commit murder than mentally sound people, is at a somewhat juxtaposition to the various studies and statistics which show that males are considerably more likely to commit crimes of this nature than females.

In any event, unlikely things happen, however rarely.

Exactly where do you claim I have ever stated that all schizophrenics are homicidal? Can you post a link to this please.?  You'll find it an impossible task, Hartley, as I have never stated this. I have instead clearly stated in a number of my postings on schizophrenia that it is wrong to depict all schizophrenics as potential murderers because that is very far from the truth.

Nevertheless, you cannot ignore Sheila's failure to take her prescribed drugs to control her symptoms, her violent mood swings, the statements made by people such as her friend Freddie that, during a recent psychotic episode, he feared for the safety of Sheila and those around her, also statements from three independent witnesses that Sheila's conduct had been abusive and frightening, all of this evidence provides an important record of the state of Sheila's mental health at the time of the murders and it cannot be swept under the carpet.

the Australian study I refer to is widely respected and regarded as authoritative because of its meticulous methodology and long duration: 28 years. No other study has matched this one.

Will you provide details of the study which you state is at odds with the Australian one too please, Hartley.

John

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #343 on: April 13, 2011, 02:06:PM »
Nobody is saying that it doesn't happen Jon, just that it is extremely rare.

Hartley

  • Guest
Re: Was Sheila Caffell set up by her brother Jeremy Bamber?
« Reply #344 on: April 13, 2011, 02:09:PM »
I think some people have to read up on the term paranoid schizophrenia since they seem to believe they are all dangerous homicidal maniacs which could not be further from the truth.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/szparanoid.htm

Just to add to that. The study being cited that shows schizophrenia sufferers to be more likely to commit murder than mentally sound people, is at a somewhat juxtaposition to the various studies and statistics which show that males are considerably more likely to commit crimes of this nature than females.

In any event, unlikely things happen, however rarely.

Exactly where do you claim I have ever stated that all schizophrenics are homicidal? Can you post a link to this please.?  You'll find it an impossible task, Hartley, as I have never stated this. I have instead clearly stated in a number of my postings on schizophrenia that it is wrong to depict all schizophrenics as potential murderers because that is very far from the truth.

Nevertheless, you cannot ignore Sheila's failure to take her prescribed drugs to control her symptoms, her violent mood swings, the statements made by people such as her friend Freddie that, during a recent psychotic episode, he feared for the safety of Sheila and those around her, also statements from three independent witnesses that Sheila's conduct had been abusive and frightening, all of this evidence provides an important record of the state of Sheila's mental health at the time of the murders and it cannot be swept under the carpet.

the Australian study I refer to is widely respected and regarded as authoritative because of its meticulous methodology and long duration: 28 years. No other study has matched this one.

Will you provide details of the study which you state is at odds with the Australian one too please, Hartley.

Errrm  ???

Didn't reply to you, respond to you, ask you a question or quote you.

So I'm .... errrm ... not sure really.  ???

EDIT:

I said that males are more likely to commit crimes of this nature than females, actually it's by a ratio of 10 to 1 in some of the reports.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 02:12:PM by Hartley »