June shot with her head on the pillow - certain guilt ?

[lookout]

I would at least have either tried to hide somewhere in the farmhouse as it was big enough,or else made my way somehow,to the front door,if I'd been either June or Neville,or even lifted a window up to shout out of it even though I probably wouldn't have been heard,but at least it would have shown that the tragedy wouldn't just have been contained in just one or two areas.
It appears that no attempt was made to protect the children,by the mother ? If Sheila had thrown herself upon the children,which any mother would have done,then Sheila would have had shots in her back,the risk anyone,including myself, would have taken to have saved the boys.
No attempt was made to open the front door,as it remained locked.
Sheila herself would have been free just to dial 999 as police would have picked up the address via the operator.
Nobody can be in two places at once,both upstairs,then downstairs-----------3 flights,so ample time to dial for help from any one of them.
I'm more than convinced that had it been Jeremy as the murderer,he'd have been shot somewhere,as there was a shotgun to hand and all it needed was to have aimed at his legs to brand him the murderer.

[nugnug]

i dont think shouting out the window would do any good there would be nobody to hear them.

[lookout]

 I realise that,nugs,but the presence of a disturbance of sorts would have led to better clues than what there were.  Such as attempts made to escape,etc. Which there were none.

[lookout]

It's been stated that Sheila was the last one to die ?
 Given the pics of June and Neville in RM,if they'd all been shot at the same time,why was it that Sheila didn't also take on the appearance that she'd been dead the same time as they ? Why would there have been a couple of hours delay in killing her ?

[nugnug]

im not sure we can really say becouse theres no real time of death.

[scipio_usmc]

It's been stated that Sheila was the last one to die ?
 Given the pics of June and Neville in RM,if they'd all been shot at the same time,why was it that Sheila didn't also take on the appearance that she'd been dead the same time as they ? Why would there have been a couple of hours delay in killing her ?

There is nothing at all that suggests Sheila died hours later.  There is nothign to suggest she died after police arrived.  The defense has no ability to establish she died after police arrived on the scene thus made no such claim.

[scipio_usmc]

Professor Macdonnell said June was shot with her head on the pillow.

Not that blood dripped onto the pillow, but that June was lying down when shot. With her head on the pillow.

The most plausible explanation for this is that June was asleep when shot. If awake prior to the shootings, she would be out of bed, or at least sitting up.

It is not realistic that June would not wake up herself, or be woken up by Neville, if Sheila had a rifle and was acting in a crazy way.

The situation was so serious that Neville had rang Jeremy and the police. Before doing this he would have attempted to get help from the other adult at WHF -June. Or he would have woken June to warn her of the serious situation.

Another reason Neville would wake June would be to get her to ring Jeremy and the police. While Neville monitors Sheila.

Another poster recently said Sheila was 'marching around WHF with the rifle' while Neville spent several minutes ringing Jeremy and the police downstairs. This is not plausible as Neville was leaving the sleeping twins and June at the mercy of a crazy Sheila, holding a fully loaded rifle. Neville would have woken June prior to making his calls, if June was (surprisingly) asleep.

The most plausible explanation for June being shot with her head on the pillow, is that she was asleep and did not hear or see her shooter beforehand. This will be the case if Jeremy had quietly got into WHF and crept upstairs.

By coincidence, Neville also received his first four shots just a few feet from June, in and around the same bed. Again suggesting he was in bed when the shooter entered the bedroom.

Do other people believe that June being shot with her head on the pillow shows certain guilt ?

It makes no real difference whether she was asleep at the time the initial shots were fired or awake yet still lying dowing.  It is the fact she was shot while in bed that was significant.

You seem to spend a great deal of time harping on something that there is no way to know for sure- whether she was awake or not when the initial shots hit.  I tend to think she woke up before she was shot because she managed to move around in bed and then out of bed pretty quick though she did not get very far. Again though it makes no real difference whether she was awake or not when the initial shots hit.     

[Adam]

It does make a difference if June was asleep or not.

June being asleep matches Jeremy quietly getting into WHF and creeping upstairs at 2.30am.

June being asleep would not match Sheila charging around WHF for a long period & Neville not being able to control her.

Anyway, my view is June was asleep when shot, which is why her head was on the pillow. She obviously woke afterwards for a short time.

There is no logical explanation for June's head being on the pillow when shot, if she was awake.

And I don't spend a great deal of time 'harping on about it'. I have created one thread, it is an important issue which again highlights Jeremy's guilt. Maybe Scipio can create a worthwhile thread for once instead of criticising others.

[Jan]

It does make a difference if June was asleep or not.

Being asleep matches Jeremy quietly getting into WHF and creeping upstairs at 2.30am.

June being asleep would not match Sheila charging around WHF for a long period & Neville not being able to control her.

Anyway, my view is June was asleep when shot, which is why her head was on the pillow. She obviously woke afterwards for a short time. There is no logical explanation for June's head being on the pillow, if she was awake.

And I don't spend a great deal of time 'harping on about it'. I have created one thread, it is an important issue which again highlights Jeremy's guilt. Maybe Scipio can create a worthwhile thread for once instead of criticising others.

  brave

[scipio_usmc]

It does make a difference if June was asleep or not.

June being asleep matches Jeremy quietly getting into WHF and creeping upstairs at 2.30am.

June being asleep would not match Sheila charging around WHF for a long period & Neville not being able to control her.

Anyway, my view is June was asleep when shot, which is why her head was on the pillow. She obviously woke afterwards for a short time.

There is no logical explanation for June's head being on the pillow when shot, if she was awake.

And I don't spend a great deal of time 'harping on about it'. I have created one thread, it is an important issue which again highlights Jeremy's guilt. Maybe Scipio can create a worthwhile thread for once instead of criticising others.

Since you insist on me helping Jeremy supporters to an extent I will do so.  How could she be awake and yet shot with her head on the pillow?

1) She was believed to be crouching in the fetal position as some of the shots came at her.  It is suggested that is how her knee and arm were shot.  She could have been tryig to hid in bed as she was being shot at instead of sitting up with her head exposed to the fire. Trying to hide in bed instead of getting up out of it would be a natural reaction for somein who is in bed when a gunman appears and starts shooting.  It doesn't mean she was fast asleep.

2) Upon being shot in the chest while seated she could have fallen backwards so she was lying on her pillow and then shot in the head.  Being shot with her head on the pillows doesn't mean she had to have been asleep.

3) she could have been awake and lying down when the gunman entered and too scared to move for fear of being shot but after the gunfire started no longer being scared because she was going to die if she didn't manage to get away so then tried to flee. 

None of these possibilities are all that helpful to Jeremy.  None of them preclude Jeremy from walking in and being the killer.  Your insistence that she had to have been sleeping and thus the killer snuck in very silently without waking her is unsupported.  That is merely a possibility it is not a fact established by her head being on the pillow as she was shot.

While people like to claim I am biased against Jeremy that is not true.  I follow the evidence where it leads I don't make up evidence and when other make unsupportable claims I challenge them regardless of whether they are favorable or unfavorable to Jeremy.

The simple fact she was shot in bed is damaging to Jeremy there is no need to strain to pretend she was for sure asleep at the time the shots started.     

[Jane]

Since you insist on me helping Jeremy supporters to an extent I will do so.  How could she be awake and yet shot with her head on the pillow?

1) She was believed to be crouching in the fetal position as some of the shots came at her.  It is suggested that is how her knee and arm were shot.  She could have been tryig to hid in bed as she was being shot at instead of sitting up with her head exposed to the fire. Trying to hide in bed instead of getting up out of it would be a natural reaction for somein who is in bed when a gunman appears and starts shooting.  It doesn't mean she was fast asleep.

2) Upon being shot in the chest while seated she could have fallen backwards so she was lying on her pillow and then shot in the head.  Being shot with her head on the pillows doesn't mean she had to have been asleep.

3) she could have been awake and lying down when the gunman entered and too scared to move for fear of being shot but after the gunfire started no longer being scared because she was going to die if she didn't manage to get away so then tried to flee. 

None of these possibilities are all that helpful to Jeremy.  None of them preclude Jeremy from walking in and being the killer.  Your insistence that she had to have been sleeping and thus the killer snuck in very silently without waking her is unsupported.  That is merely a possibility it is not a fact established by her head being on the pillow as she was shot.

While people like to claim I am biased against Jeremy that is not true.  I follow the evidence where it leads I don't make up evidence and when other make unsupportable claims I challenge them regardless of whether they are favorable or unfavorable to Jeremy.

The simple fact she was shot in bed is damaging to Jeremy there is no need to strain to pretend she was for sure asleep at the time the shots started.     

Because what you're describing are natural reactions to a terrifying situation I wouldn't have thought it needed saying, but I was guessing without Adam's very limited imagination which he so frequently demonstrates. He probably does more to persuade people of Jeremy's innocence than does Mike.

[susan]

Morning April  I agree I was beginning to think Adam had changed his stance to innocence but thought I better not mention it 

[Adam]

Since you insist on me helping Jeremy supporters to an extent I will do so.  How could she be awake and yet shot with her head on the pillow?

1) She was believed to be crouching in the fetal position as some of the shots came at her.  It is suggested that is how her knee and arm were shot.  She could have been tryig to hid in bed as she was being shot at instead of sitting up with her head exposed to the fire. Trying to hide in bed instead of getting up out of it would be a natural reaction for somein who is in bed when a gunman appears and starts shooting.  It doesn't mean she was fast asleep.

2) Upon being shot in the chest while seated she could have fallen backwards so she was lying on her pillow and then shot in the head.  Being shot with her head on the pillows doesn't mean she had to have been asleep.

3) she could have been awake and lying down when the gunman entered and too scared to move for fear of being shot but after the gunfire started no longer being scared because she was going to die if she didn't manage to get away so then tried to flee. 

None of these possibilities are all that helpful to Jeremy.  None of them preclude Jeremy from walking in and being the killer.  Your insistence that she had to have been sleeping and thus the killer snuck in very silently without waking her is unsupported.  That is merely a possibility it is not a fact established by her head being on the pillow as she was shot.

While people like to claim I am biased against Jeremy that is not true.  I follow the evidence where it leads I don't make up evidence and when other make unsupportable claims I challenge them regardless of whether they are favorable or unfavorable to Jeremy.

The simple fact she was shot in bed is damaging to Jeremy there is no need to strain to pretend she was for sure asleep at the time the shots started.     

I don't really agree with any of that.

If awake June would not be hiding in bed, laying down or sitting up in bed.  She would be out of bed,  either supporting Neville, with the twins, or  phoning the police while Neville monitors Sheila. It was her daughter, not a gang of violent armed robbers. This is common sense.

But feel free to create unlikely situations.

June being shot with her head on the pillow matches perfectly her being asleep at 2.30am. People often are asleep at this time. There is no reason she would hear Jeremy quietly entering a downstairs window in another part of WHF. Then creeping upstairs and heading to the main bedroom.

[scipio_usmc]

I don't really agree with any of that.

If awake June would not be hiding in bed, laying down or sitting up in bed.  She would be out of bed,  either supporting Neville, with the twins, or  phoning the police while Neville monitors Sheila. It was her daughter, not a gang of violent armed robbers. This is common sense.

But feel free to create unlikely situations.

June being shot with her head on the pillow matches perfectly her being asleep at 2.30am. People often are asleep at this time. There is no reason she would hear Jeremy quietly entering a downstairs window in another part of WHF. Then creeping upstairs.

How did I create an unlikely situation?

Jeremy walks in his mother is in bed and both Nevill and June wake up and see him.  He has a gun pointed at her.  She:

A) sits up and yells at him and is shot in the chest, falls back to the pillow and her head is shot against th epillow

B) she is scared so does not move and stays lying down, the gunfire starts and she crouches as the fire hits getting shot 4 times then decides to get up to try to run away because hiding in bed failed

What is unlikely about either of these?

What is unlikely is that Nevill would be awake but she would still be asleep since she was a lighter sleeper than he was.  I believe they were both awake when he shot them but it makes no difference at all whether she was asleep when he started the shooting or not.

You ar einterested in refuting the notion that Sheial did it and suggest that if Sheila were running around with a gun she would have woken up and got out of bed.  I agree she would have gotten out of bed not stayed there so her being shot in bed is indicative of Jeremy doing it not Sheila,  It makes no difference whether she was asleep or not.  The critical issue is  she would not have stayed in bed had Sheila been causing trouble and Nevill would not have used the phone to call Jeremy while an armed Sheila was elsewhere potentially causing harm to June and the boys. 

You are straining for absolutely nothing and that straining shows bias on your part.

 

[Jane]

But feel free to create unlikely situations

It sounds as if you're giving Scipio permission to do exactly what you do.