The Last Trailer

[Adam]

Yes but Caroline's argument is that the murders took place much earlier, or at least four of the victims died hours before commonly accepted. Jeremy allegedly says to Nevill it would be quicker to drive to the trailer, having purposefully left it on the extremities of the farmland, drives back home, leaves the car for the neighbours to see, calls Julie to establish an alibi and then walks back to the trailer, now being within the White House Farm boundaries. He then waited for all to retire and was in situ hours before it was generally believed the murders took place.

He was seen driving off at 10pm.

[lookout]

One character took his trailer to the caravan site where he was staying----why ?

[Adam]

That's Dorothy Foakes.  See my post above.

Have you got their WS's? Neither are in the 'Statements & Transcripts' section.

[guest29835]

Well-argued but he doesn't need to tell anyone his plan of staying the night at White House Farm until the last moment, maybe surprising Nevill, throwing him off guard and walking back with him to the ingress. He has already blabbed to Julie on the telephone from Bourtree Cottage that he had been thinking about the crime all day, and "it's now or never.."

You may be right.  By all means, he may well have told them he was staying the night.  Who knows?  Not sure what difference it makes, and I personally think it unlikely anyway.

Three circumstantial reasons I find it unlikely, apart from Len Foakes' evidence:

(i). [To repeat] I think Jeremy would not want to take the risk of a third party discovering that he was a guest at the farmhouse that night.  If he planned this, he must have thought about it.  In the event, June and Sheila mention nothing to Pamela about Jeremy staying.  I appreciate it may be that only Nevill knew, but remember that Dorothy Foakes had heard Jeremy drive off at 9.30 p.m.

(ii). If Jeremy is the killer, and if you otherwise accept Len Foakes' evidence about what Nevill was doing, and if you accept my earlier posts about the need for Jeremy to go to and from the farm on foot, then Jeremy's time bracket for committing the murders is roughly 11 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.  Contrary to what Caroline says, it makes sense that Jeremy would leave this as late as possible.  I think, if Jeremy did this, the family were killed at some point between 1.00 p.m. and 2.15 p.m.  He wouldn't wait around at the farmhouse for hours, even if it was under the guise of being a guest, nor would he want to risk a melee.  (The fact there was a melee does not detract from this point).

(ii). The fact there was a melee (or so it appears) indicates that if Jeremy was in situ, he has not executed it very well.  He has not waited until his parents are asleep, which is strange.  After all, if his parents heard something, in all seriousness wouldn't Jeremy just shout: 'Oh, don't worry, just me!'  They would not investigate.  Jeremy in situ is in the perfect position to wait until the perfect moment.  The fact there was a melee suggests to me that the killer was either a distressed individual running amok or an intruder - the latter of course would have to be Jeremy.

None of this is to belittle Caroline.  I reiterate: it's an interesting theory.

[Steve_uk]

He was seen driving off at 10pm.

I know but he nipped back to farm allegedly with the excuse he was going to take the last trailer,  having placed that receptacle the furthest away from the White House on the extremities of the farmland.

[guest29835]

He was seen driving off at 10pm.

No.  He was only heard driving off, not seen, and it was 9.30 p.m.  The relevant witness is Dorothy Foakes.  She does say that she had often heard Jeremy driving off and the sound was similar, so it does seem reliable to be fair.

[guest29835]

I know but he nipped back to farm allegedly with the excuse he was going to take the last trailer,  having placed that receptacle the furthest away from the White House on the extremities of the farmland.

No, that never actually happened Steve.  That's purely Caroline's own theorising/speculation.  Again, I'm not knocking Caroline, but it does look like she was not aware of Len Foakes' evidence when she wrote the above.

[lookout]

Fraser-Bell took the trailer to the caravan site. Ralph Nevill fled the country on the morning after the murders, leaving his campervan outside the farmhouse. Dodgy goings- on that night !

[Steve_uk]

You may be right.  By all means, he may well have told them he was staying the night.  Who knows?  Not sure what difference it makes, and I personally think it unlikely anyway.

Three circumstantial reasons I find it unlikely, apart from Len Foakes' evidence:

(i). [To repeat] I think Jeremy would not want to take the risk of a third party discovering that he was a guest at the farmhouse that night.  If he planned this, he must have thought about it.  In the event, June and Sheila mention nothing to Pamela about Jeremy staying.  I appreciate it may be that only Nevill knew, but remember that Dorothy Foakes had heard Jeremy drive off at 9.30 p.m.

(ii). If Jeremy is the killer, and if you otherwise accept Len Foakes' evidence about what Nevill was doing, and if you accept my earlier posts about the need for Jeremy to go to and from the farm on foot, then Jeremy's time bracket for committing the murders is roughly 11 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.  Contrary to what Caroline says, it makes sense that Jeremy would leave this as late as possible.  I think, if Jeremy did this, the family were killed at some point between 1.00 p.m. and 2.15 p.m.  He wouldn't wait around at the farmhouse for hours, even if it was under the guise of being a guest, nor would he want to risk a melee.  (The fact there was a melee does not detract from this point).

(ii). The fact there was a melee (or so it appears) indicates that if Jeremy was in situ, he has executed it very well.  He has not waited until his parents are asleep, which is strange.  After all, if his parents heard something, in all seriousness wouldn't Jeremy just shout: 'Oh, don't worry, just me!'  They would not investigate.  Jeremy in situ is in the perfect position to wait until the perfect moment.  The fact there was a melee suggests to me that the killer was either a distressed individual running amok or an intruder - the latter of course would have to be Jeremy.

None of this is to belittle Caroline.  I reiterate: it's an interesting theory.

But there was no melee, at least not a physical altercation. Julie tells us Jeremy broached the subject of adoption to sow discord amongst the family, something he did at every conceivable opportunity. He was unbelievably still not fully bent on murder that evening, even up to the time of the first telephone call to Julie. I think a cocktail of drugs and alcohol gave him the required Dutch courage, along with the programme on miscarriages, which brought his whole relationship with Suzette and how shabbily he perceived his parents had treated her to the fore, exacerbated his resentment and acted as the final catalyst to the diablerie which was to occur in the wee hours of the following morning.

[David1819]

No, that never actually happened Steve.  That's purely Caroline's own theorising/speculation.  Again, I'm not knocking Caroline, but it does look like she was not aware of Len Foakes' evidence when she wrote the above.

After being conned by Paul Harrison into thinking JB was guilty. Caroline expected posts like this would vindicate her once Paul Harrisons book was released.

Boy did that blow up in her face.   

[Steve_uk]

One character took his trailer to the caravan site where he was staying----why ?

Was that the South African guy? I do recall something of that kind.

[Steve_uk]

After being conned by Paul Harrison into thinking JB was guilty. Caroline expected posts like this would vindicate her once Paul Harrisons book was released.

Boy did that blow up in her face.   

It's actually a well-conceived scenario, which would tie up several loose ends.

[guest29835]

Fraser-Bell took the trailer to the caravan site. Ralph Nevill fled the country on the morning after the murders, leaving his campervan outside the farmhouse. Dodgy goings- on that night !

Alan Fraser-Bell, a South African, was a student at the Royal Agricultural College in Cirencester.  At roughly tea time (5 p.m.), he was working at the farm end and was asked by Nevill to go over to Goldhanger and assist Alf Foakes with the baling.  Since he was up Goldhanger way by day's end and he would be working out of Goldhanger the next morning, it made sense for him to leave his car at the farm and go straight to Osea.  I see nothing suspicious in this.

There is a Chris Nevill who was a relative of Nevill's from New Zealand and he stayed with the Bambers, but that was over the Christmas of 1982.  The only Ralph Nevill I am aware of is Nevill's famous ancestor, who was part of the Arts and Crafts Movement and designed and built Clifton House.  Due to my own work, I was coincidentally aware of him before I even took an interest in this case.

I fear the Ralph Nevill you refer to may be an invention by poor old Mike, but by all means I'll retract this if such a person is shown to have existed and stayed at the farm at the relevant time.  Mike referred to him as a South African and said he left the country the following day, which seems strange if an entire family have just been wiped out.  But what motive would such a person have to be involved in killing the family?

Or was it Alan Fraser-Bell who left the country promptly?

[Steve_uk]

Alan Fraser-Bell, a South African, was a student at the Royal Agricultural College in Cirencester.  At roughly tea time (5 p.m.), he was working at the farm end and was asked by Nevill to go over to Goldhanger and assist Alf Foakes with the baling.  Since he was up Goldhanger way by day's end and he would be working out of Goldhanger the next morning, it made sense for him to leave his car at the farm and go straight to Osea.  I see nothing suspicious in this.

There is a Chris Nevill who was a relative of Nevill's from New Zealand and he stayed with the Bambers, but that was over the Christmas of 1982.  The only Ralph Nevill I am aware of is Nevill's famous ancestor, who was part of the Arts and Crafts Movement and designed and built Clifton House.  Due to my own work, I was coincidentally aware of him before I even took an interest in this case.

I fear the Ralph Nevill you refer to may be an invention by poor old Mike, but by all means I'll retract this if such a person is shown to have existed and stayed at the farm at the relevant time.  Mike referred to him as a South African and said he left the country the following day, which seems strange if an entire family have just been wiped out.  But what motive would such a person have to be involved in killing the family?

Or was it Alan Fraser-Bell who left the country promptly?

No Chris Nevill was in situ, staying on the grounds in a campervan.

[lookout]

Was that the South African guy? I do recall something of that kind.

Yes, that's right.