The Last Trailer

[John]

I might be missing something here but I don't believe a tractor was used on the morning of the murders to get from point A to point B because it would have been just too noisy.  He undoubtedly used the bike and took the shortest route through the fields using some of the farm tracks which would have brought him right up to the farmyard.

On a warm August night the neighbours would have been asleep with their windows open so using a vehicle, any motorised vehicle was a no no.  Yet another reason why an outsider was not involved in this slaying.

[Neil]

What's going on?  Where have all of this mornings posts gone?  Or is it just me?

[Jane]

What's going on?  Where have all of this mornings posts gone?  Or is it just me?

Oh, Neil. Thank God you're there. I thought I'd been transported to another planet...............and I'm sober, too. They must have been gobbled by the Greater Spotted Post Gobbler.

[Patti]

What's going on?  Where have all of this mornings posts gone?  Or is it just me?

No idea Neil. I do believe we are having some sort of problems at the moment. I shall contact NGB...

[Caroline]

There has obviously been a server problem and the forum database must have had to be restored from the last back-up. Unfortunately, anything posted after the back-up won't have been saved.

[Caroline]

I might be missing something here but I don't believe a tractor was used on the morning of the murders to get from point A to point B because it would have been just too noisy.  He undoubtedly used the bike and took the shortest route through the fields using some of the farm tracks which would have brought him right up to the farmyard.

On a warm August night the neighbours would have been asleep with their windows open so using a vehicle, any motorised vehicle was a no no.  Yet another reason why an outsider was not involved in this slaying.

I think you did miss something John, I didn't say he used the tractor in the early hours, I said he brought the last trailer back after talking to Julie - which was just after 10pm. I live in the countryside and it's not unusual to see tractors at that time of night.

[guest29835]

Something has always bugged me about Jeremy's story of what happened the previous evening, specifically - why it took him so long to take the last trailer to the combine. He claims to have come back to the house at 8 or 9pm (I'm sure he could have been more specific), had some supper in the kitchen where there was a discussion about Sheila. However, was this discussion ONLY about Sheila? What if he was just fed up and couldn't be arsed to take the last trailer to the combine (or just said he couldn't to cause an argument as part of his plan). I imagine Neville would have been furious and told Jeremy to get his finger out which might have gravitated to him threatening to move Sheila into his cottage and Jeremy back to WHF so they could keep and eye on him.

Either way, Jeremy said he took the trailer to the combine after putting the gun on the settle, did some work in a field and came back to WHF on foot? Why wouldn't he have just waited for the trailer to fill and take it back to WHF? Instead he left it there and claims his dad agreed to collect the last load? It was almost 10pm?? That doesn't make sense - it was collected but who really collected it and when? Perhaps Jeremy planned the trailer episode, taking it across country to as far as he could get as the crow flies to Goldhanger or the nearest access road, path, he then walks back, tells his dad he will get the load in the morning, at which point Neville flies off the handle and tells him it needs doing tonight. He has something to eat, perhaps messes with the gun or maybe that didn't happen. He leaves around 9:45, takes his car with an excuse that it will be quicker to drive to the field to collect the trailer, when actually, he drives home, makes his call to Julie (first part of the alibi – he's home by 10) and walks across land back to the trailer, leaving his car at home for the neighbours to see.

After returning to the trailer, he completes the last load and takes it back to WHF, he doesn't need to break in, his dad is expecting him and maybe he agrees to stay the night to make an early start in the morning. So, he's already in the house and only needs to get out of a window 'after' killing everyone. He may have been supposed to sleep in the other single bed in Sheila's room – perhaps that's why his dads slippers were next to the bed because Jeremy borrowed them?

Before leaving WHF after the murders, he calls his number which is intercepted by his answer phone, he clicks the release button making sure the call is disconnected and puts the receiver on the worktop and walks home across the fields which as the crow flies, is a short distance.

Babs Wilson said she called Neville at 9:30 to ask about dropping a bike off for the twins and he was in a really bad mood (as he would be if in his eyes, Jeremy was taking the piss), Jeremy said he left WHF at 9:45 and they were ALL in a good mood. This being the case (and given that BW only lives 5 mins away) why didn't he ask Jeremy to go and collect the bike?

One of the first things he took from WHF on his return (after looking for the wallet) was to collect the video – perhaps he taped the programmes he claimed to have watched on the WHF video? No one would have checked as they thought he spent the evening at Goldhanger or at least most of it.

He has secured an alibi in several ways, he made the call to Julie, his car is in the drive, he tells everyone that Neville collected the last trailer giving the impression it was collected after he left. If anyone saw the trailer in the fields that night, from what Jeremy said, they would have assumed it was Neville.

He had to have an alibi because if he had just let someone find the scene in the morning, he might still have been a suspect and the police may have started looking at him from day one and he wouldn't have had time to get rid of things like the video tape, the clothes he was wearing etc.

OK, off to put on my tin hat and dig out a bunker 

This is an interesting theory but it falls down on one point: we have a witness, Len Foakes, who saw Nevill collect the last trailer from the field, which supports Jeremy's claim (made to Len earlier that evening) that he had agreed with his father to leave the trailer in the field for Nevill to collect the last of the combined rape.  Nevill duly did this at around 10 p.m., as witnessed by Len.

It's suggested here that it would be odd for Nevill to be working out at that time, but it wasn't.  This was summer in the south of England and he was a busy farmer during harvest.  He would be out that late and nobody would bat an eyelid.

I understand the thinking behind having Jeremy leave the cottage earlier, but on careful reflection, it makes little sense for him to do this.  It just complicates things because he then has to find somewhere to hide for maybe several hours, and it is more likely he will be seen by somebody and have to later give a reason.  It also increases the chances of him being caught out in later statements. 

It's also suggested here that Jeremy's early call to Julie was part of securing an alibi, but frankly, he was either at the cottage or not, and either way matters little unless somebody who is there with him can give evidence that he was at the cottage at times coinciding with the shootings  He knew Nevill would be out late anyway.  There was little value in the call to Julie in the sense of an alibi because whether he is at the cottage or not, he can leave, and he may claim what he likes to Julie.  Apart from all that, it can't have been an alibi if Jeremy has told Julie he is going to kill his family and then tells her in this call that 'Tonight's the Night'.   

[Steve_uk]

This is an interesting theory but it falls down on one point: we have a witness, Len Foakes, who saw Nevill collect the last trailer from the field, which supports Jeremy's claim (made to Len earlier that evening) that he had agreed with his father to leave the trailer in the field for Nevill to collect the last of the combined rape.  Nevill duly did this at around 10 p.m., as witnessed by Len.

It's suggested here that it would be odd for Nevill to be working out at that time, but it wasn't.  This was summer in the south of England and he was a busy farmer during harvest.  He would be out that late and nobody would bat an eyelid.

I understand the thinking behind having Jeremy leave the cottage earlier, but on careful reflection, it makes little sense for him to do this. It just complicates things because he then has to find somewhere to hide for maybe several hours, and it is more likely he will be seen by somebody and have to later give a reason.  It also increases the chances of him being caught out in later statements. 

It's also suggested here that Jeremy's early call to Julie was part of securing an alibi, but frankly, he was either at the cottage or not, and either way matters little unless somebody who is there with him can give evidence that he was at the cottage at times coinciding with the shootings  He knew Nevill would be out late anyway.  There was little value in the call to Julie in the sense of an alibi because whether he is at the cottage or not, he can leave, and he may claim what he likes to Julie.  Apart from all that, it can't have been an alibi if Jeremy has told Julie he is going to kill his family and then tells her in this call that 'Tonight's the Night'.

I think Caroline's thesis was that Jeremy stayed the night quite openly at White House Farm.

[Adam]

Len Flokes said he saw Bamber drive off.

[Adam]

I was going to say that Bamber may have fitted in a couple of hours sleep, prior to returning to WHF. The next few hours would have been hectic.

However he was probably too highly strung. He told Julie 'I haven't slept all night' when he rang her at 3am.

[guest29835]

I think Caroline's thesis was that Jeremy stayed the night quite openly at White House Farm.

That does not cohere with Len's evidence, and that of his wife.

First, Len says Jeremy told him he was leaving for home after a long day and Nevill had agreed to take the last trailer instead, as long as Jeremy left it in the field. 

Next, Dorothy Foakes hears Jeremy drive off (she doesn't actually see him drive off, but the sound is similar to what she is used to and she assumes it is him). 

Then Len sees Nevill do exactly what Jeremy said Nevill would do. Why does that happen if Jeremy is still there?  If Jeremy is staying the night, then it was his job to take in the last trailer, not Nevill's. 

Later, Len sees Nevill still out on his tractor at 10.30 p.m.

Of course, Jeremy may have arranged to stay the night anyway and lied to Len about why he was leaving early, instead intending to return.  But wouldn't there be a risk of that arrangement leaking?  Remember that there was a call between Pamela, June and Sheila at about 10.05 p.m., and Nevill could have mentioned to anybody that Jeremy was coming back.

If Jeremy is the killer, he doesn't want to arrange to stay the night, instead he needs to be seen to return to Bourtree Cottage and he needs people to think that is what he has done.

[Steve_uk]

Len Flokes said he saw Bamber drive off.

Yes but Caroline's argument is that the murders took place much earlier, or at least four of the victims died hours before commonly accepted. Jeremy allegedly says to Nevill it would be quicker to drive to the trailer, having purposefully left it on the extremities of the farmland, drives back home, leaves the car for the neighbours to see, calls Julie to establish an alibi and then walks back to the trailer, now being within the White House Farm boundaries. He then waited for all to retire and was in situ hours before it was generally believed the murders took place.

[guest29835]

Len Flokes said he saw Bamber drive off.

That's Dorothy Foakes.  See my post above.

[Steve_uk]

That does not cohere with Len's evidence, and that of his wife.

First, Len says Jeremy told him he was leaving for home after a long day and Nevill had agreed to take the last trailer instead, as long as Jeremy left it in the field. 

Next, Dorothy Foakes hears Jeremy drive off (she doesn't actually see him drive off, but the sound is similar to what she is used to and she assumes it is him). 

Then Len sees Nevill do exactly what Jeremy said Nevill would do. Why does that happen if Jeremy is still there?  If Jeremy is staying the night, then it was his job to take in the last trailer, not Nevill's. 

Later, Len sees Nevill still out on his tractor at 10.30 p.m.

Of course, Jeremy may have arranged to stay the night anyway and lied to Len about why he was leaving early, instead intending to return.  But wouldn't there be a risk of that arrangement leaking?  Remember that there was a call between Pamela, June and Sheila at about 10.05 p.m., and Nevill could have mentioned to anybody that Jeremy was coming back.

If Jeremy is the killer, he doesn't want to arrange to stay the night, instead he needs to be seen to return to Bourtree Cottage and he needs people to think that is what he has done.

Well-argued but he doesn't need to tell anyone his plan of staying the night at White House Farm until the last moment, maybe surprising Nevill, throwing him off guard and walking back with him to the ingress. He has already blabbed to Julie on the telephone from Bourtree Cottage that he had been thinking about the crime all day, and "it's now or never.."

[lookout]

Well-argued but he doesn't need to tell anyone his plan of staying the night at White House Farm until the last moment, maybe surprising Nevill, throwing him off guard and walking back with him to the ingress. He has already blabbed to Julie on the telephone from Bourtree Cottage that he had been thinking about the crime all day, and "it's now or never.."

I thought it was " tonight's the night ?"