There was no reason why Sheila should wake: Was there ?

[Adam]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5213.0.html

[maggie]

http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5213.0.html

Whether they should have done or not, facts were suppressed or with held by EP and/or the defence.

[maggie]

The 2002 appeal said Sheila was under sedation. It was also 2am. People are often in a deep sleep then. Usually with their bedroom door shut.
Jeremy committing the massacre the way the facts portray, there is no reason why Sheila should wake.
But as I said there is a slim chance she woke. And retreated to the corner after seeing a gunman. Which is a natural thing to do.

Am unable to bring up 2002 appeal on my tablet, shall check when am on laptop, I don't understand why they claimed Sheila was sedated unless they were talking about the haloperidol as the pm stated there was no trace of sedatives in her body.

[maggie]

The 2002 appeal said Sheila was under sedation. It was also 2am. People are often in a deep sleep then. Usually with their bedroom door shut.
Jeremy committing the massacre the way the facts portray, there is no reason why Sheila should wake.
But as I said there is a slim chance she woke. And retreated to the corner after seeing a gunman. Which is a natural thing to do.

Possibilities, Adam, endless possibilities!!!!!
You are stating generalities saying 'people are often in a deep sleep then' ...... yes many people are but judging by how many adults sleep badly, many, many are awake therefore your statement is too sweeping, also many people have their bedroom doors shut but some NEVER shut their bedroom doors, so some people will be asleep at 2am with their doors closed, some will be awake with their doors closed, some asleep with doors open, some awake with doors open, some awake and downstairs, some in the loo, some sleep walking. Think I need to move on from this!!!!

[Adam]

With the bedroom door open it is still very possible Sheila would not wake. See thread post.

With the bedroom door shut she would not have heard anything. The noise was too low, short term and far away to travel through a shut door and wake someone from a moderate/deep sleep.

[grahameb]

The silencer was certainly used. Accepted as evidence at trial and appeals. Not contested at trial by Jeremy and his lawyers.

Whether the twins were shot first or last, they made no noise as they were sleeping. 

June was shot in the neck with her head on the pillow. As well as another 6 times. She was barely able to move a few feet, let alone scream.  People usually scream prior to something happening as they are scared it will happen. With June it had already happened.

This thread is about 'why Sheila would wake'. Jeremy and Neville going downstairs would have been short term minimal noise.

Agree the fight was in another part of WHF. It was brutal as Neville's injuries show. See 2002 appeal.

Sheila had to die out of bed if it was frame. Neville woke & June crawled a few feet.


There is no reason Sheila should wake. Her bedroom door may well have  been shut. The twins & June were shot in bed. Most noise would be downstairs in another part of a big house.

Just because the silencer was accepted at trial it doesn't mean that it was actually used. In fact that is one of my contentions with it not being a fair trial. In my opinion it should never have been accepted as evidence. The fact that it wasn't contested by the defence just means they had their heads in the clouds atthe time. Because it was so obvious that it was most probably contaminated evidence. Also that it was found by interested parties.

[maggie]

With the bedroom door open it is still very possible Sheila would not wake. See thread post.

With the bedroom door shut she would not have heard anything. The noise was too low, short term and far away to travel through a shut door and wake someone from a moderate/deep sleep.

BUT she may have been awake with door open, downstairs, in loo or ? That is the problem.

[grahameb]

The difference between using a moderator or not with a rifle like the Anschutz is the difference between a cap gun and firing a .22.  A suppressed 22 sounds like a cap gun. There is actually a significant difference because unsuppressed it can damage hearing.

Police said Sheila's bed looked to them like it had been slept in and quickly made up.  She coudl have slept on the bed instead of in it.  Insomnia doesn't mean one doesn't go to bed at all it usually results in one lying awake in bed.  Sheila complained about insomia from her medicaitons but it subsides when she stopped taking 200MG which required her to take a daily countering agent which is notorius for causing agitation and sleeping problems.

Both you and I know that it depends on what ammo was used. I've been in a confined space when such a gun was fired and it sounded like a cap gun without a silencer. With the silencer it sounded like a click.

[maggie]

Just because the silencer was accepted at trial it doesn't mean that it was actually used. In fact that is one of my contentions with it not being a fair trial. In my opinion it should never have been accepted as evidence. The fact that it wasn't contested by the defence just means they had their heads in the clouds atthe time. Because it was so obvious that it was most probably contaminated evidence. Also that it was found by interested parties.

Absolutely Grahame.

[lookout]

 Against Nevilles' better judgement,and because of all the guns in that farmhouse,while he was downstairs,and YOU think that Jeremy was upstairs,Neville WOULD have shot Jeremy in his legs to put him out of action.,or cause injury which would have rendered him,Jeremy, guilty of attempted murder.

At this juncture,Jeremy has studied law whilst being in prison,so will know far more than any of us regarding his case and because of his studies,which also includes mental illness/psychology,he will be better read than those of a degree level,and so will be in a more knowledgeable position to put his side of the case together in order to prove his innocence.
Do you,or anyone else think that Jeremy would go to the trouble of studying if he'd been guilty ? Nope !
He'd have topped himself well before now,as he wasn't the type of guy to have faced the rest of his life being locked up. ( that's if he'd been guilty )

This is entirely different because he's fighting for his freedom,and will continue to do so. Innocent !

[grahameb]

The silencer was certainly used. Accepted as evidence at trial and appeals. Not contested at trial by Jeremy and his lawyers.

Whether the twins were shot first or last, they made no noise as they were sleeping. 

June was shot in the neck with her head on the pillow. As well as another 6 times. She was barely able to move a few feet, let alone scream.  People usually scream prior to something happening as they are scared it will happen. With June it had already happened.

This thread is about 'why Sheila would wake'. Jeremy and Neville going downstairs would have been short term minimal noise.

Agree the fight was in another part of WHF. It was brutal as Neville's injuries show. See 2002 appeal.

Sheila had to die out of bed if it was frame. Neville woke & June crawled a few feet.


There is no reason Sheila should wake. Her bedroom door may well have  been shut. The twins & June were shot in bed. Most noise would be downstairs in another part of a big house.

Adam all that you have said is only speculation. None of us know exactly what happened. It really is no use saying things like, "It was a frame if she had to die out of bed". And agreed Nevill was badly beaten up. But all that says to me is that Nevill was injured, and not that his assailant was at all. In fact I think it quite possible that a woman could hold the barrel of a rifle without damaging her nails. Why? Because no one has actually proved otherwise. Not only that, but you also insist that Nevill was shot at least twice before he was hit with the rifle. If Sheila was incapable of moving after her first shot, it is quite logical to assume that Nevill also was very debilitated before he was hit with the rifle?

[grahameb]

People say Sheila would have woken, put up a fight for her own & the twins life.

Not if the twins were shot first. She would still be sleeping.

If she put up a fight, why was she in the far corner of the main bedroom ? She would be in the middle of the main bedroom, in the hallway, or kitchen helping Neville.  Or in the twins bedroom trying to protect them.

You are still assuming that Jeremy did it. There is nothing to indicate that Sheila was asleep. On the contrary as she was found in her parents bedroom there is every probability that she was awake.

[grahameb]

Maggie says my mind is closed. I do not mind seeing proof that what has been accepted is not true.

If June was not shot in bed or there was not a kitchen fight etc, let me know.  With proof please.

That is just the problem Adam. I challenge what was accepted and you do not.

[maggie]

Adam all that you have said is only speculation. None of us know exactly what happened. It really is no use saying things like, "It was a frame if she had to die out of bed". And agreed Nevill was badly beaten up. But all that says to me is that Nevill was injured, and not that his assailant was at all. In fact I think it quite possible that a woman could hold the barrel of a rifle without damaging her nails. Why? Because no one has actually proved otherwise. Not only that, but you also insist that Nevill was shot at least twice before he was hit with the rifle. If Sheila was incapable of moving after her first shot, it is quite logical to assume that Nevill also was very debilitated before he was hit with the rifle?

Should think Nevill was traumatised and disorientated after taking a few shots also Nevill needed to have been sitting as neither Sheila, June or Nevill were tall enough to hit him round the face otherwise.

[grahameb]

There is no reason Sheila should wake

The was if she did the murders.