Author Topic: Update on the telephone engineers testimony  (Read 10047 times)

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Offline nugnug

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2014, 10:54:PM »
It seems this forum has found it's own Hercule Poirot.

Investigating things none of Jeremy's lawyers apparently have not thought of.  Who is writing facts but not quoting a source.

I have never claimed Jeremy picked up his own phone call. Whether he did or not is neither here or there. I had to ring up my home phone from a call box once. To make sure my home phone worked. In the days before mobiles. Several minutes later I returned home. Guess what, the phone was ringing.

His answering machine may have taken his WHF call. Which shows the WHF call was answered.

are so you admit the call happened now.

Offline Jan

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2014, 10:56:PM »
It seems this forum has found it's own Hercule Poirot.

Investigating things none of Jeremy's lawyers apparently have not thought of.  Who is writing facts but not quoting a source.

I have never claimed Jeremy picked up his own phone call. Whether he did or not is neither here or there. I had to ring up my home phone from a call box once. To make sure my home phone worked. In the days before mobiles. Several minutes later I returned home. Guess what, the phone was ringing.

His answering machine may have taken his WHF call. Which shows the WHF call was answered.


gullible is a word that comes to mind.

Offline nugnug

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2014, 11:02:PM »
so how does he comit the murders at whf then phone himself from whf then back home in time to phone julie mugford.

rember hes supposed to be on a push bike.

hed be pushing it for time wouldent he.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 11:04:PM by nugnug »

Offline Jan

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2014, 11:05:PM »
is the telephone engineers testimony in any of the books? If it exists you would think it would be?


Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2014, 11:12:PM »
Truth? You can't handle the truth, to quote a phrase. If you honestly believed in the truth you would do as I have done and fully investigate the claims of those who assert what they know not. On another note your reluctance in proving my "very strong case" establishes the fact that you are only interested in that ahem "truth" that seems to back up your claims. I AM interested in the truth and IU will challenge anything that appears to me to be too neatly put together. To say that the telephone engineer's testimony is not available online appears to me to be tantamount to saying I haven't even seen his testimony, but rather I got the information second hand.

So let's just recap shall we?
(1) Jeremy claims to have received a phone call from his father in the early hours of 7th August 1985.

(2) Indeed according to a telephone engineer such a call was made from WHF that morning and note, only one phone call.

(3) Jeremy could not have made that call himself from WHF and then peddled home on a bike. Why? Because (a) It would take him at least 20 minutes, even if he cycled like the clappers. And why is this so important? Because (b) The cut-off point of the ringing in those days was around 6 minutes and it is a fact that Jeremy could not get home in time to answer it.

Actually the ride on a bike could be done in 12-15 minutes.

But you need evidence that a phone call in those days would cut off after 6 minutes of ringing.  If your claim had any merit the defense would have elicited such from the phone representative at trial. 

Since the defense could nto find any such evidence and I have been unable to find any objective sources claiming a phone would cut off after 6 minutes this appears to be something you simply made up.

But by all means post reliable evidence to back up your claim (and no claiming someone told you such isn't reliable evidence).



(4) The telephone engineer's information was wrong. He "allegedly" stated that Jeremy would have hung up the receiver first. Through investigating this I found that there was no way for an engineer to tell who hung up the phone first.

Logical conclusion: Jeremy claimed to have received a phone call that morning from his father. One phone call was indeed made that morning from WHF. So who was at the farm that morning to make that call? Well I've just established beyond doubt that it could not have been Jeremy. So logically it must have been Nevill.

ps: I am currently investigating if it was possible to know the time of that phone call from WHF. I'll let you know if I am successful.

Saying you spoke to people means the testimony at trial was wrong is not solid evidence.

I found a book on telephone operation that clearly states that each side of a call in that era had an end office monitor the loop currents during the entire call to determine if the party on their side hangs up. 
When someone hangs up the end office signals the other office.

So there was in fact  abasis to say that they could figure out who hung up first regardless of what your friends claim.

At any rate even if we completely ignore any evidence of who hung up first and pretend they could not tell this still doesn't help you at all.  All the other evidence that speaks against the call is overwhelming.

Someone claiming to you they should have been able to tell the exact time the call was dialed or alternatively answered would be of little use.  It neither proves they could in fact determine the precise time it was dialed/answered or more more importantly establishes what that precise time was. 

The main value of the precise time would be to see just how long Jeremy waited before calling police.  For that matter though they would have been able to determine the exact time he called Julie and not have needed to rely on testimony.

 

 
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Offline Jan

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2014, 11:15:PM »
this was written in 2011 .

With regard to the sequence and timings of the telephone calls on the morning of Wednesday 7th August 1985, according to the “Blood Relations” book the following is detailed on pages 290 and 291.

….. “In the spring of 1991, Jeremy Bamber listed a dozen points from the crown case that he contested or rejected outright. He supplied comments on each of them:

1 The phone call to the police.

The prosecution fixed the time that Jeremy Bamber called the police at 3.26 a.m. on the morning of the massacre. Jeremy says this timing is wrong. At 3.26, PC Michael West (who took his call at Chelmsford police control room) telephoned Malcolm Bonnet in the information room. Bonnet’s (undated) statement: ‘At 03.26 a.m. on Wednesday 7 August 1985, I received a telephone call on the internal line.” Jeremy says West made this call to Bonner after his own call reporting trouble at the farm, so this call ‘must have been between 3.15 and 3.20.’

The question of timing here is further muddled because PC West originally logged Bamber’s call at 3.36 a.m. Either the clock was wrong, or West misread it, or he simply made a slip when entering the time on the telephone log. Certainly, the log clearly shows the call timed at 0336. Jeremy suggests two possible answers: Either West received another call from someone else (‘such as my Dad alerting the police to his situation’) or West has ‘intentionally manipulated the timing of my call to Chelmsford in an attempt to undermine my evidence, knowing as we do that PC West did not write up this account until 13 September’ – 5 days after Jeremy’s arrest at Maida Vale, and more than five weeks after the killings.

2 The phone call from Nevill Bamber.

Some accounts of the case have embroidered Jeremy’s account of the phone call he claimed to have received from his father in the middle of the night. Jeremy never claimed in the course of this call, he heard a shot and the line went dead.

Jeremy says: ‘The phone conversation with my Dad did end abruptly and when I phoned him back the line was engaged. It’s hard to guess what happened with his phone. Either the socket was disconnected from the wall, or the handset replaced. I don’t specifically recall hearing a dial tone, but there could have been one, though when I phone back it was definitely an engaged signal which could have been Dad phoning for help elsewhere.’ We do know when the police entered the house, the telephone receiver was off the hook.

3 The call back.

Jeremy told PC West that after receiving the worried call from his father, the line had gone dead and he had tried to call back, only to hear the engaged tone. It’s clear that had Nevill Bamber dropped the received under attack from Sheila, the line would have stayed open. Jeremy could not have obtained a fresh dialling tone until either the receiver at the farm had been replaced, or two units of phone time had been automatically metered. At that time of night, this would have taken ten minutes.

Jeremy says: ‘No one suggests that Dad was attacked while he was speaking to me. The phone may have been replaced in the usual way or the plug disconnected from the wall. This would have cut the connection, thereby allowing me to phone from my house. I recall distinctly getting the engaged tone when I rang Dad back, which indicates that he was either making another call or his handset was off the hook. Even if it is correct that Dad just dropped the phone during his call to me, it is not true that I would have had to wait until two units of phone time had elapsed before getting a fresh dialling tone.’

Jeremy cites the statement of an engineer called Robert Cox, who tested this point on behalf of the police. They wanted to know if Caller A from Tollesbury [Nevill Bamber] had phoned Caller B at Goldhanger [Jeremy] and during the course of the call, Caller A had placed the received down but not on the hook, would caller B be able to dial out again? The answer to this question appears to be: Yes. Caller B [Jeremy] could have dialled out again provided he had replaced his receiver on the hook for a continuous period of between one and two minutes. Engineer Cox stressed that the period MUST be continuous. If Jeremy had picked his receiver even for a moment before the ‘Force Release’ period had expired, this period would begin all over again. The ‘Force Release’ period can be as long as two minutes.

Jeremy says that although he replaced his handset after the call from his father, ‘I don’t believe that two minutes elapsed before I tried phoning him back. My return call was probably inside a minute although I am guessing. I know I rang back almost straight away. Of course it’s all irrelevant if Dad replaced his handset or pressed the cut-off button.’……..

Offline nugnug

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2014, 11:17:PM »
is the telephone engineers testimony in any of the books? If it exists you would think it would be?

you would think one of the authers would of covered it wouldn't you.

Offline Adam

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2014, 11:17:PM »
Jeremy's supporters are focusing on something else. Which even if correct does not prove his innocence in any way.

This was after denying Jeremy could lock the kitchen window from outside. I provided four sources which refuted this.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline nugnug

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2014, 11:20:PM »
this was written in 2011 .

With regard to the sequence and timings of the telephone calls on the morning of Wednesday 7th August 1985, according to the “Blood Relations” book the following is detailed on pages 290 and 291.

….. “In the spring of 1991, Jeremy Bamber listed a dozen points from the crown case that he contested or rejected outright. He supplied comments on each of them:

1 The phone call to the police.

The prosecution fixed the time that Jeremy Bamber called the police at 3.26 a.m. on the morning of the massacre. Jeremy says this timing is wrong. At 3.26, PC Michael West (who took his call at Chelmsford police control room) telephoned Malcolm Bonnet in the information room. Bonnet’s (undated) statement: ‘At 03.26 a.m. on Wednesday 7 August 1985, I received a telephone call on the internal line.” Jeremy says West made this call to Bonner after his own call reporting trouble at the farm, so this call ‘must have been between 3.15 and 3.20.’

The question of timing here is further muddled because PC West originally logged Bamber’s call at 3.36 a.m. Either the clock was wrong, or West misread it, or he simply made a slip when entering the time on the telephone log. Certainly, the log clearly shows the call timed at 0336. Jeremy suggests two possible answers: Either West received another call from someone else (‘such as my Dad alerting the police to his situation’) or West has ‘intentionally manipulated the timing of my call to Chelmsford in an attempt to undermine my evidence, knowing as we do that PC West did not write up this account until 13 September’ – 5 days after Jeremy’s arrest at Maida Vale, and more than five weeks after the killings.

2 The phone call from Nevill Bamber.

Some accounts of the case have embroidered Jeremy’s account of the phone call he claimed to have received from his father in the middle of the night. Jeremy never claimed in the course of this call, he heard a shot and the line went dead.

Jeremy says: ‘The phone conversation with my Dad did end abruptly and when I phoned him back the line was engaged. It’s hard to guess what happened with his phone. Either the socket was disconnected from the wall, or the handset replaced. I don’t specifically recall hearing a dial tone, but there could have been one, though when I phone back it was definitely an engaged signal which could have been Dad phoning for help elsewhere.’ We do know when the police entered the house, the telephone receiver was off the hook.

3 The call back.

Jeremy told PC West that after receiving the worried call from his father, the line had gone dead and he had tried to call back, only to hear the engaged tone. It’s clear that had Nevill Bamber dropped the received under attack from Sheila, the line would have stayed open. Jeremy could not have obtained a fresh dialling tone until either the receiver at the farm had been replaced, or two units of phone time had been automatically metered. At that time of night, this would have taken ten minutes.

Jeremy says: ‘No one suggests that Dad was attacked while he was speaking to me. The phone may have been replaced in the usual way or the plug disconnected from the wall. This would have cut the connection, thereby allowing me to phone from my house. I recall distinctly getting the engaged tone when I rang Dad back, which indicates that he was either making another call or his handset was off the hook. Even if it is correct that Dad just dropped the phone during his call to me, it is not true that I would have had to wait until two units of phone time had elapsed before getting a fresh dialling tone.’

Jeremy cites the statement of an engineer called Robert Cox, who tested this point on behalf of the police. They wanted to know if Caller A from Tollesbury [Nevill Bamber] had phoned Caller B at Goldhanger [Jeremy] and during the course of the call, Caller A had placed the received down but not on the hook, would caller B be able to dial out again? The answer to this question appears to be: Yes. Caller B [Jeremy] could have dialled out again provided he had replaced his receiver on the hook for a continuous period of between one and two minutes. Engineer Cox stressed that the period MUST be continuous. If Jeremy had picked his receiver even for a moment before the ‘Force Release’ period had expired, this period would begin all over again. The ‘Force Release’ period can be as long as two minutes.

Jeremy says that although he replaced his handset after the call from his father, ‘I don’t believe that two minutes elapsed before I tried phoning him back. My return call was probably inside a minute although I am guessing. I know I rang back almost straight away. Of course it’s all irrelevant if Dad replaced his handset or pressed the cut-off button.’……..

are sorry i missed your post there.

Offline maggie

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2014, 11:25:PM »
Jeremy's supporters are focusing on something else. Which even if correct does not prove his innocence in any way.

This was after denying Jeremy could lock the kitchen window from outside. I provided four sources which refuted this.
And I posted quotes from the police which proves they knew the window could not be locked from outside but you chose to ignore it.

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2014, 11:29:PM »
And I posted quotes from the police which proves they knew the window could not be locked from outside but you chose to ignore it.

Your quotes didn't prove that! Adam's proved what he's said.

Offline Adam

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2014, 11:38:PM »
Thank you Mat.

Yes - Julies statement.

          AE's statement.

         The 2002 appeal.

         Wilkes's book.
'Only I know what really happened that night'.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2014, 11:43:PM »
Jeremy cites the statement of an engineer called Robert Cox, who tested this point on behalf of the police. They wanted to know if Caller A from Tollesbury [Nevill Bamber] had phoned Caller B at Goldhanger [Jeremy] and during the course of the call, Caller A had placed the received down but not on the hook, would caller B be able to dial out again? The answer to this question appears to be: Yes. Caller B [Jeremy] could have dialled out again provided he had replaced his receiver on the hook for a continuous period of between one and two minutes. Engineer Cox stressed that the period MUST be continuous. If Jeremy had picked his receiver even for a moment before the ‘Force Release’ period had expired, this period would begin all over again. The ‘Force Release’ period can be as long as two minutes.

Which goes back to his testimony that the phone had been hung up at Goldhanger but not at Tollesbury.

He was asked SINCE the person at Tollesbury had not hung the phone up WOULD the person at Goldhanger still be able to dial out straight away.

His answer was no, the phone at Goldhanger had to remain hung up for 1-2 minutes before there would be a "force release" and that only after the "force relase" would there be a dialtone and the person at Goldhanger would be able to dial out.

When someone hung up the phone a message would be sent automatically from the office on that end, when someone hungs up the second phone another message is sent and then both phones could be used.  If only 1 party hangs up the phone and the other remains off the hook then these mutual messages are not sent out.  After a period of 1-2 minutes though of the phone being hung up there would be a forced release and that phone that was hung up could then be used.


Jeremy says that although he replaced his handset after the call from his father, ‘I don’t believe that two minutes elapsed before I tried phoning him back. My return call was probably inside a minute although I am guessing. I know I rang back almost straight away.


Which is the problem.  He claims he dialed again before enough time would have elasped for a forced release.  The prosecution argued this is evidence he was lying and making things up, because he would not have been able to dial out straight away.


Of course it’s all irrelevant if Dad replaced his handset or pressed the cut-off button.’……..

The testimony of the engineer was that this did not happen but rather that the phone remained off the hook and not hung up at Tollesbury.
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2014, 11:56:PM »
is the telephone engineers testimony in any of the books? If it exists you would think it would be?

It's not listed verbatim only the main implications discussed like the main implications were discussed in the 2002 Appeal.

The upshot is that when you hang up a phone the home office assocated with that end of the call sends out a message that the receiver was hung up.  Such message was never sent out and that the phone remained off the hook.

The main significance of this is that Jeremy would not have been able to use his phone right away upon hanging his own phone up.  He would have had to leave his phone hung up for  a period of  1-2 minutes before he could use it.

He claimed he hung up the phone and immediately picked it back up and dialed out.  The phone company said that is impossible he had to leave it hung up for a period of 1-2 minutes before he could dial out. 

So the main value of this was to say he was full of crap about immediately calling anyone. had he been telling the truth he should have stated that his phone would not work at first and he had to wait  awhile before it would work again.  So this was evidence of lying.

The reason why this is so important is because the supposed click he heard could potentially have been the phone being set down on the counter.  Indeed at one point during questioning he told someone he might have heard the scuffle on the other end.  I think he told Ann Eaton that at one point as well. 

Where they had him in a provable lie was his claim that he immediately dialed out after hanging up the phone.  That was the one they used the engineer to help prove.  Hence why that testimony is what the Appeal decision and various books discussing the case reference.  They concentrate on the point supposedly proven false but don't cite all his testimony that helped establish it.  They concentrate on the conclusion about the "forced release" because that conclusion is the issue.

 


 
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Offline Caroline

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Re: Update on the telephone engineers testimony
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2014, 11:57:PM »
Which goes back to his testimony that the phone had been hung up at Goldhanger but not at Tollesbury.

He was asked SINCE the person at Tollesbury had not hung the phone up WOULD the person at Goldhanger still be able to dial out straight away.

His answer was no, the phone at Goldhanger had to remain hung up for 1-2 minutes before there would be a "force release" and that only after the "force relase" would there be a dialtone and the person at Goldhanger would be able to dial out.

When someone hung up the phone a message would be sent automatically from the office on that end, when someone hungs up the second phone another message is sent and then both phones could be used.  If only 1 party hangs up the phone and the other remains off the hook then these mutual messages are not sent out.  After a period of 1-2 minutes though of the phone being hung up there would be a forced release and that phone that was hung up could then be used.



Which is the problem.  He claims he dialed again before enough time would have elasped for a forced release.  The prosecution argued this is evidence he was lying and making things up, because he would not have been able to dial out straight away.


The testimony of the engineer was that this did not happen but rather that the phone remained off the hook and not hung up at Tollesbury.

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to confirm who (if anyone) hung up the phone. The small exchanges didn't collect information of that nature. This was the UK back in 1985 - a system of buzzes, bells and flashing lights - no memory and the small exchanges (such as Maldon) weren't even manned!
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