Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...

[Caroline]

I believe his first conversation with Jeremy was where he used the phras "She", meaning June, because he had already been shot once by her upstairs in the bedroom. No sooner does Ralph start to tell Jeremy that "she" has got the gun, than all hell breaks loose because Sheila turns up brandishing one of Ralphs guns,  which I suspect was the 12 bore shotgun the police later became interested in, and she may have been threatening to use it...

So why didn't he just call the police on the emergency number and why no blood on the phone? Sorry but the idea of Jeremy being guilty makes more sense than a scenario including June and Sheila going berserk.

[maggie]

So why didn't he just call the police on the emergency number and why no blood on the phone? Sorry but the idea of Jeremy being guilty makes more sense than a scenario including June and Sheila going berserk.

I agree, I cannot buy that. 

[Jane]

I use my head. 

Motive:

Why would June go crazy?  Why would June threaten him with a gun at all?

Timing:

The boys were in bed earlier than everyone else and then Nevill goes to bed next.  Why would June wait till 2:30AM or later to go after Nevill?  What would set June off at that hour while they are sleeping and she had been in bed?   

Confrontation:

June yells at Nevill and waves a gun.  How does he get away from her to use the phone?  If she were just interested in killing why would she not shoot at him right away?  Why would she leave him alone? 

Call:

He gets away from June and truly fears for his life what are his choices?  1) Get out of the house and seek help (in this manner he will be safe).  2) Call for help and hope help arrives before June can kill anyone.  3) arm himself to fight back 4) freeze with fear and do absolutely nothing at all and wait to be killed

Those are his choices.  If you decide to go with the call for help one then you are panicked.  You will call 999 when panicked and scared or at minimum call someone you know will answer and know can provide help.  Jeremy is neither likely to be able to help nor likely to answer.  So why would someone panicked pick him to call?  Empathy you say- well someone panicked out of their mind would not call their son to come be in harms way too they would call 999.  To not want to call police would mean he DIDN'T think it was that serious.  If it wasn't that serious he could handle it himself. 

Jeremy had a poor relationship with June and Sheila so either way he would not be someone to call to calm them down if anything he would be likely to provoke them to shoot.  He certianly want's tougher or braver or stronger than Nevill, if anythign he was a chicken sh!t smartass so he offered nothing in that regard.  So there was nothing he could bring to the table and would not even be likely to answer so if one is desperate why call him?

----

So we have no explanation of how Nevill would be in a position to make a phone call let alone why he would make a phone call instead of arming himself or trying to disarm June/Sheila let alone why he would call Jeremy instead of 999 if he did decide instead to use the phone.

The evidence proves he didn't freeze after being shot he either ran after his attacker or away from his attacker and then tried to disarm the attacker in the kitchen before being beaten unconscious so he did fight back. Someone like that would not run begging a chicken sh!t son he didn't even trust to come try to save him. 

To believe something so ridiculous there needs to be credible evidence to substantiate it.  Instead there is compelling evidence that proves this didn't happen.

YOU might. YOU have the luxury of examining this from a comfortable and objective position nearly 30 away from when it happened. If we put this poor guy in the situation where ONE of his family -let alone the possibility of TWO- has suddenly started to display ungovernable behaviour unlike anything they have previously done, I don't think logic and reason will play a huge part in what he does. I certainly believe that any negative thoughts he MAY have had about his son would have been forgotten coz when the chips are down, THAT'S what parents do.

In case you misconstrue my meaning, I'm in NO way suggesting that June played any part in what happened.

[scipio_usmc]

YOU might. YOU have the luxury of examining this from a comfortable and objective position nearly 30 away from when it happened. If we put this poor guy in the situation where ONE of his family -let alone the possibility of TWO- has suddenly started to display ungovernable behaviour unlike anything they have previously done, I don't think logic and reason will play a huge part in what he does. I certainly believe that any negative thoughts he MAY have had about his son would have been forgotten coz when the chips are down, THAT'S what parents do.

If you panick all reason doesn't go away.  OMG she's got a gun on us I am just so scared let me push my son in the way so I can escape... If all reason goes away then you dial 999 you don't think about who to call to try to help without the police arresting the culpret it's not mindless panick if you do that.

In the meantime there is no evidence at all Nevill could have had access to the phone before the shooting started.

Still no explanation of how he would get away to access the phone.

Why would the killer wait for him to use the phone and still not shoot but rather march him upstairs to do it?

If you have no evidence something happened then you better have a really good reason why it would have happened anyway.

[Jane]

If you panick all reason doesn't go away.  OMG she's got a gun on us I am just so scared let me push my son in the way so I can escape... If all reason goes away then you dial 999 you don't think about who to call to try to help without the police arresting the culpret it's not mindless panick if you do that.

In the meantime there is no evidence at all Nevill could have had access to the phone before the shooting started.

Still no explanation of how he would get away to access the phone.

Why would the killer wait for him to use the phone and still not shoot but rather march him upstairs to do it?

If you have no evidence something happened then you better have a really good reason why it would have happened anyway.

Scipio, if that's how you tell me it is for you, who am I to argue HOWEVER, you're in no more knowledgeable place to tell me Nevill would replicate YOUR actions, than am I to say he wouldn't. What I AM certain of is that neither of us can guarantee what he's have done.

IS there evidence, other than your own, that Nevill DIDN'T have access to the phone before the shooting started?

[Jan]

And why are we even starting this discussion

Read this and you know why.BALLISTICS NOT ATTENDING!

[scipio_usmc]

Scipio, if that's how you tell me it is for you, who am I to argue HOWEVER, you're in no more knowledgeable place to tell me Nevill would replicate YOUR actions, than am I to say he wouldn't. What I AM certain of is that neither of us can guarantee what he's have done.

IS there evidence, other than your own, that Nevill DIDN'T have access to the phone before the shooting started?

Someone wakes Nevill up from bed and has a gun aimed at him.

How does he get to the kitchen to use the phone?  Why does the killer allow him to go to the kitchen and allow access instea dof shooting him?  Why does he use the phone instead of grabbing a weapon?

Why would he call Jeremy instea dof 999 or someone else knowing Jeremy would be unlikely to answer and not be of any help anyway even if he did answer?

These are the questions for starters related to the supposed phonecall.

[lookout]

 For all anyone knows,Neville could,at one stage,have been threatened if he attempted to ring the police.

 For all we know,,Neville could have been forced to ring Jeremy on the pretext of getting him to WHF    too .

If only Jeremy had all the answers,,he wouldn't be where he is now.

[maggie]

How can we be sure Nevill was in bed,? 
We know Nevill used to take the dogs out about 10.30.
He also often fell asleep in his favourite chair in the kitchen, with a g&t and a fag, the cushions were burned where he dropped his cigarettes so there is a possibility Nevill had fallen asleep in his chair and had been awoken by Sheila in the kitchen.

[susan]

Hello Maggie that is a possibility but Sheila had eaten later than the others so Ralph must have been in bed when that happened I suspect it is all so confusing.

[Jane]

Someone wakes Nevill up from bed and has a gun aimed at him.

How does he get to the kitchen to use the phone?  Why does the killer allow him to go to the kitchen and allow access instea dof shooting him?  Why does he use the phone instead of grabbing a weapon?

Why would he call Jeremy instea dof 999 or someone else knowing Jeremy would be unlikely to answer and not be of any help anyway even if he did answer?

These are the questions for starters related to the supposed phonecall.

They did if he WAS in bed and asleep.

[susan]

Hello April

think Ralph was in bed but heard something in the kitchen and got up to investigate.

[Jane]

Hello April

think Ralph was in bed but heard something in the kitchen and got up to investigate.

OR had sat downstairs with a stiff G&T.

[maggie]

Hello Maggie that is a possibility but Sheila had eaten later than the others so Ralph must have been in bed when that happened I suspect it is all so confusing.

Well, just because Nevill drppoed off in his chair at some point doesnt mean Sheila didn't make and eat a sandwich. On the other hand she may have just had a slower digestion than the others, atr a packet of crisps in her bedroom ...... anything.
Fact is we don't know but it could be a possibility??

[mike tesko]

So why didn't he just call the police on the emergency number and why no blood on the phone? Sorry but the idea of Jeremy being guilty makes more sense than a scenario including June and Sheila going berserk.

Hi Caroline,

no, your not thinking logically, since how could blood from one wounded arm get onto the phone that Ralph was holding with his other unbloodied hand?