Author Topic: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...  (Read 9545 times)

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Offline lookout

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2014, 09:31:AM »
 I think if there'd been a list of Sheilas' problems and illness,etc,,the jury then would have been hard-pushed to decide. As it was,,two of them didn't agree,,and at one time,a majority verdict would have been a necessary decision,and not a unanimous one as is requested today.

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2014, 10:36:AM »
Evidence now exists to prove the sequence with which the first full load of the rifle was fired by the shooter...

Childrens bedroom - 8 shots,  Daniel 5,  Nicholas 3, 5 single marked bullet cases, 2 double marked cases... 

Main bedroom - 9 shots, June 7, Ralph1, Sheila 1, 8 single marked bullet cases, 1 double marked case...

Kitchen - 7 shots, Ralph 6, Sheila 1, 5 single marked cases, 2 double marked cases...




"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2014, 10:45:AM »
I think if there'd been a list of Sheilas' problems and illness,etc,,the jury then would have been hard-pushed to decide. As it was,,two of them didn't agree,,and at one time,a majority verdict would have been a necessary decision,and not a unanimous one as is requested today.

PI Bob Miller, DI Ron Cook, DCS Mick Ainsley, and the rest of the team of SOC at the scene, including DC Hammersley, all conspired to pervert the course of justice, by arranging for the original four bullet cases found in the region of the kitchen, to be transferred as having been found in the main bedroom, this was done deliberately, so that the argument that Ralph had been shot as many as 4 times whilst upstairs in the bedroom, including a bullet fired into his jaw, would have prevented Ralph from being able to speak, and therefore bolster up the claim that Jeremy had made up the details of the allegged call from his father at the scene...

We now know the police tampered with the placement of four bullet cases found downstairs in the kitchen, but moved as though they had been recovered from the main bedroom, a deception which altered the total of shots fired in the main bedroom, from 9 to 13, whilst at the same time reducing the total number of shots disharged in the kitchen by 4, from 7 to 4...

« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 11:07:AM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline lookout

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2014, 11:11:AM »
 I'd like to think that there was 1 " stray " bullet case in the part of the kitchen where Neville wasn't within the area of it.

Have we got the exact positions/areas in which the cases were found ? Is it in the Archives ? If so,,I'll look,,to save someone repeating themselves. I tend to forget these " little " details.

Offline Caroline

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2014, 12:54:PM »
It was a gross mistake to tell the jury that the person responsible for the shootings was either Sheila or Jeremy, with no possibility of any third party involvement. None more so, because evidence existed to indicate the additional involvement of June Bamber, and the police...

I think the phone call claim narrows it down to Sheila or Jeremy. If you're saying the phone call still happened BUT Neville was referring to June (said 'she' and not 'Sheila'), then surely you can't believe there was a second call to the police?
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2014, 03:28:PM »
I think the phone call claim narrows it down to Sheila or Jeremy. If you're saying the phone call still happened BUT Neville was referring to June (said 'she' and not 'Sheila'), then surely you can't believe there was a second call to the police?

Hi Caroline,

I believe there was a great deal of tension, anxiety and confusion in the air when events started to take a turn for the worst around about 3.25am on that particular night. The mix up concerning what Ralph said to Jeremy, as opposed to what he said to the police, can easily be explained away by the counter argument that is the proof which confirms that both of them, June and Sheila were off thier trollys at the same time...

« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 03:37:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Caroline

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2014, 03:36:PM »
Hi Caroline,

I believe there was a great deal of tension, anxiety and confusion in the air when events started to take a turn for the worst around about 3.25am on that particular night. The mix up concerning what Ralph said to Jeremy, as opposed to what he said to the police, can easily be explained away by the counterargumenr that is the proof which confirms thAt both of them were off thier trollys at the same time...

That being the case, why wouldn't he have said that? 'Sheila' or even 'she' implies one person. Had they both turned psychotic, I feel sure IF he made the call, he's have mentioned it.
Few people have the imagination for reality

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2014, 03:43:PM »
That being the case, why wouldn't he have said that? 'Sheila' or even 'she' implies one person. Had they both turned psychotic, I feel sure IF he made the call, he's have mentioned it.

I believe his first conversation with Jeremy was where he used the phras "She", meaning June, because he had already been shot once by her upstairs in the bedroom. No sooner does Ralph start to tell Jeremy that "she" has got the gun, than all hell breaks loose because Sheila turns up brandishing one of Ralphs guns,  which I suspect was the 12 bore shotgun the police later became interested in, and she may have been threatening to use it...
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 04:37:PM by mike tesko »
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2014, 04:50:PM »
What we now know, is that when Ralph called Jeremy, he had already been shot once in the arm, and by the time Ralph had finished talking to police, he was in line to be shot again by the last two rounds inside the anshuzt rifle...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2014, 04:56:PM »
Police knew by mid September 1985, that the rifle already had ammunition loaded into it prior to Jeremy adding new bullets taken from a full box of 50. Police know that five rounds already in the gun had got double magazine markings on them and that these five rounds could not have been directly loaded into the gun from the aforementioned box of 50, by Jeremy, or anybody else. It also helped police to establish that Jeremy had in fact loaded six new rounds from the box on tuesday evening, all of which produce single marked cases. Police were able to pinpoint where at the scene these five double magazine marked cases were found, which provided them with a clear picture of where the first full load of the guns bullet had been fired...

It was possible to do this because of the sequence with which the five double marked rounds had been loaded into the gun, along with the order that Jeremy had loaded six single marked rounds into the gun...

First of all, there is no evidence to establish there were 5 rounds in the gun prior to Jeremy loading more.  Your supposed single/double marked claims are hogwash.  At BEST there could be marks on a case that suggest it had been ejected from a gun prior.  That would merely mean the gun was unloaded though.  For instance,  working the bolt to eject 5 rounds until the gun is empty.  There would be breech marks and ejection marks left on the live rounds. Far from establishing these rounds were still in the magazine of the gun it indicates they had been unloaded through the ejection port. 

When a round is unfired markings of this sort will stand out.  When fired any previous marks will belnd in with the new ones and the claim it is possible to tell for sure a bullt was previously unloaded from the gun is specious.

If 5 rounds were unloaded from the gun through the ejection port then they woudl have been placed in the tray again not the magazine.  No one unloads 5 rounds through the ejection port to then immediately load them back into the magazine.  You drop the magazine, eject the round in the chamber and load it into the magazine again you don't eject all 5 to reload into the magazine.
 
You supposed evidence, if true, at best can prove 5 of the rounds used to commit the murders were unloaded through the ejection port previous to Jeremy loading the weapon.  That falls far short of establishing they were in the a magazine when he picked up the weapon.  In fact it cuts against it because when you empty a magazine by ejecting all shells out of the ejection port it means you are doing so specifically so the weapon will remain empty. Instead of unloading the magazine by hand you unload it by ejecting them out of the weapon.     

Second, Jeremy stated that the magazine was empty or he would have ran outside with it immediately.  He claimed he was in such a rush he wasn't even sure how many bullets were in it after he loaded it he claimed between 8 and10 in one interview and between 5 and 10 in another. He stated he was in such a rush he might not have made sure he loaded it fully because he was scared the rabbits would get away.  He would not have looked for a box of ammunition if the gun already had been loaded.

This 5 round business is an invention by Jeremy advocates to try to pretend he didn't stage the bullets in the kitchen.  He claimed that because the gun was empty he sought out a tray of ammunition that was full or near full, carried it to the kitchen, dumped the rounds out and quickly loaded the magazine with 8-10 rounds.  25 rounds were used in the murders so even if the tray had been full only 25 rounds would remain but there were 30 left.  Why would Sheila load 18-20 rounds from the bullets in the kitchen then stop loading a magazine part way and go to the closet to seek out 5-7 more bullets to finish when there were 30 more from the stockpile she supposedly was using?

This establishes the bullets were staged by Jeremy.  To try to pretend they were not staged the fable about 5 bullets already being in the magazine was born. Jeremy advocates would rather pretend their were 5 rounds in the gun already though this doesn't fit Jeremy's claims at all because the alternative is that he definitely staged these bullets.  The gun was not normally stored with ammunition, Jeremy himself claimed it was empty so he had to rapidly try to load it to get the rabbits before they left and there is in fact no evidence which can establish they had already been in the gun at the time Jeremy picked it up. 

Why would there be 5 rounds in it?  If someone stopped using it mid way and simply put it away loaded there would even be a round in the chamber already. It would routinely put away empty though not loaded. Someone who ejects 5 rounds would simply but those bullets back with other ammunition not reload it immediately.

The evidence cited doesn't in any way, shape or form establish there were 5 rounds in the gun already. 
But if there were 5 rounds already then it just shows even more how Jeremy's entire tale about the rabbits was complete BS because he would have just ran outside with the already loaded gun according to his own claims, not taken time to make sure it was loaded to capacity.

That brings us to your claim there were 5 rounds in it already and Jeremy loaded 6 more.  The only way to load 11 rounds total is for 1 round to be in the chamber.  If there was 1 round in the chamber and 4 in the magazine then he could have loaded 6 as you claim. If the wepaon is empty then you have to load the magazine fully, insert it into the weapon, chamber a round, release the magazine, load another round into the magazine and then reinsert the magazine.  That is how you load 11 rounds.  His own claims were that he loaded the magazine in a different room than he had the weapon sitting so this would not have been possible if his claims were true.

Moreover, he claims he unloaded the weapon after the rabbits got away.  He claims he removed the magazine and unloaded the round in the chamber- which means that said unloaded round would have had breech and ejection marks on it. So one of the 5 supposed rounds with double marks can be attributed to such. 

Neither June nor Sheila would be bothered dropping the magazine to load an 11th round.  Only Jeremy would do such and indeed 11 shots were fired June and Nevill in the master bedroom.

If Jeremy did load 11 rounds in the gun before he left then he didn't unlaod it as claimed and would not have left it where someone else could find it.  He would have either put it back in the closet or a place where only he knew where it was so that he could immediately use it instead of having to load it after sneaking in. 

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With respect to the defense making a mistake by admitting it was either Sheila or Jeremy- they simply admitted the obvious.  Your case against June is that we can't prove she didn't fire a gun because she was not tested for GSR and foreign blood. That means the defense can't prove she did though.  The defense bears the burden of establishing it is plausible June did it. 

It is not plausible though because there is no motive, waiting to 2:30AM to take action makes no sense, and allowing Sheila to disarm her makes no sense and the evidence establishes she was shot in bed then got up.  Your suggestions otherwise don't hold up to scrutiny.     

Jeremy framed his sister not only with the phone call, but other claims he made to police as well as how he staged her body.  He is th eone who fingered Sheila so the defense had little choice but to admit it was either him or her.  If the frame fell apart then it was the framer who did it.

Sheila could not have killed herself based on the forensic evidence and that means he had to have done it.

Let's be frank, the claim June beat and shot Nevill and the boys is an invention to explain away why Sheila had no blood from Nevill or the boys on her, had no lead on her fingers and didn't have broken nails.  This tale features Jeremy and June loading all the bullets so Sheila had no means to get lead on her hands from loading.  It features June beating Nevill instead of Sheila because if Sheila had done it she would have had back spatter and broken her nails. 

The only thing this tale doesn't explain away is why Sheila would not have any GSR on her body and hands but at least it explains in part how she could be so clean. Jeremy himself claimed maybe Nevill said she got the gun.  His lawyers found no way to use this but you did.   

This is not an example of you following the evidence where it leads but rather constructing a story around the evidence to try to find a way to make Jeremy innocent.  On a message board yo ucan claim anything you want and proof is not necessary. 

To suggest an alternative kille rin court requires having an evidentiary basis and the evidence you presented of June not being tested so not knowing either way if she had GSR or foreign blood falls far short. 

There is no evidence at all of June's involvement and hosts of reasons why it makes no sense. 

The more leaps you take the less credibility you have with others and if you lose credibility with a jury you can forget about winning the case. So even if a judge allows poorly sourced blame being placed elsewhere pressing the claim not only will it be rejected but worse it can result in a complete loss of credibility.

 
 
Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline mike tesko

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2014, 05:00:PM »
At that juncture, the bullets had ran out, and the gun needed reloading...
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive"...

Offline Jane

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2014, 05:03:PM »
Hi Caroline,

I believe there was a great deal of tension, anxiety and confusion in the air when events started to take a turn for the worst around about 3.25am on that particular night. The mix up concerning what Ralph said to Jeremy, as opposed to what he said to the police, can easily be explained away by the counter argument that is the proof which confirms that both of them, June and Sheila were off thier trollys at the same time...


I agree entirely that there was tension, anxiety and confusion. However, had Nevill been shot, whilst he MAY not have said so to Jeremy, IMO, he most definitely WOULD have told the police to let them know of the urgency.

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2014, 05:28:PM »
I think the phone call claim narrows it down to Sheila or Jeremy. If you're saying the phone call still happened BUT Neville was referring to June (said 'she' and not 'Sheila'), then surely you can't believe there was a second call to the police?

There was no call form Nevill to Jeremy let alone one to police but especially not a call directly to police.

The telephone company confirms a call from WHF to Goldhanger took place but the phone was never hung up at WHF and no calls thus made from WHF subsequently.  That alone is fatal to a calim of a 2nd call. 

But worse the person alleged to have received a direct call from Nevill denies it and the allegation is based on a report which states as clear as day a cop contacted him and passed the message to him.

Anyone pushing the claim Nevill called police has no crediiblity in the eyes of most because it is pushing a knowlingly false claim.  Abandoning this claim thus doesn't hurt at all but only cna help one's reputation.

Jeremy himself is the one who started with maybe he said she instead of Sheila claim.  He says he wasn't sure whether he said she or Sheila.  Even if he is given the benefit of the doubt that he said she not Sheila and meant June the problems are the same exact problems as when it was claime dhe said Sheila.

How would he get away from June to call Jeremy?

Why would he call Jeremy since he got along poorly with June and could not have calmed her down.

Why would he call Jeremy knowing he had an answering machine so probably would not answer and probably would not wake up even given how far the phone was from the bedroom.

Why would he not try to disarm her himself and instead call Jeremy to do it?

Why would he call Jeremy instead of using the time to arm himself and then challenge June? 

Why would she go crazy at 2:30AM of all times when everyone had been asleep?

Why would she go crazy at all?  What would be the motive?

Why would she not kill Sheila?  Why would she go to bed leaving Sheila with access to the gun?

There are many other questions as well.

We have all these questions that need to be answered and at the end of the day what is all this aimed to establish?  It is aimed to explain away Sheila not breaking her nails, not having elevated levels of lead on her hands and not having Nevill's blood on her body/clothing.  It still doesn't address the lack of high velocity spatter from June or gunshot residue. 

None of this addresses the elephant in the room though. 

There is no evidence at all to suggest there is a reaosnable likelihood this happened but this tale still features Sheila killing herself and being the final person alive in the house.

Why would she kill herself just because her mother murdered everyone else?  She would have been upset but enough to kill herself?  She loved them and would miss them but she liked doing her own thing and havd largely ignored the boys anyway.  She stood to gain half the estate so it is not as if she suddenly would find herself cut off from their financial help on the contrary she would get more. She could do her own thing still so why would she kill herself?

Worse though there is evidence she can't have killed herself.  Sheila was shot sitting down.  She was still sitting down for a while as she bled on her arm and gown.  Shortly after this she was moved flat.  She could not have moved her dea dbody someone else moved it and did so very soon after she was shot.  Zero police report seeing her seated and moving her body flat and if they had moved her body flat the blood on her neck would have been dry and not have leaked down the side.  It leaked down the side shortly after she was shot so she was moved quite soon after.   She also can't have put the suppressor away after killing herself with it.  The bible was also repeatedly opened and closed while the blood was still wet, which she could not have done after dying.  Someone else was still alive and moved things around after she died.

At the end of the day making June the killer and Sheila killing her in self-defense or out of revenge then committing suicide still doesn't help the core problem of which is evidence that Sheila didn't kill herself.

Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry

Offline Jane

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2014, 05:41:PM »
And if ANY of the above had transpired, do you really believe that Nevill would have rationalized the situation by asking the questions YOU'VE asked. Do you EVER empathize or is there nothing but cold logic?

Offline scipio_usmc

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Re: Jury, given ultimatum, it was either Sheila, or Jeremy - gaff...
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2014, 06:14:PM »
And if ANY of the above had transpired, do you really believe that Nevill would have rationalized the situation by asking the questions YOU'VE asked. Do you EVER empathize or is there nothing but cold logic?

I use my head. 

Motive:

Why would June go crazy?  Why would June threaten him with a gun at all?

Timing:

The boys were in bed earlier than everyone else and then Nevill goes to bed next.  Why would June wait till 2:30AM or later to go after Nevill?  What would set June off at that hour while they are sleeping and she had been in bed?   

Confrontation:

June yells at Nevill and waves a gun.  How does he get away from her to use the phone?  If she were just interested in killing why would she not shoot at him right away?  Why would she leave him alone? 

Call:

He gets away from June and truly fears for his life what are his choices?  1) Get out of the house and seek help (in this manner he will be safe).  2) Call for help and hope help arrives before June can kill anyone.  3) arm himself to fight back 4) freeze with fear and do absolutely nothing at all and wait to be killed

Those are his choices.  If you decide to go with the call for help one then you are panicked.  You will call 999 when panicked and scared or at minimum call someone you know will answer and know can provide help.  Jeremy is neither likely to be able to help nor likely to answer.  So why would someone panicked pick him to call?  Empathy you say- well someone panicked out of their mind would not call their son to come be in harms way too they would call 999.  To not want to call police would mean he DIDN'T think it was that serious.  If it wasn't that serious he could handle it himself. 

Jeremy had a poor relationship with June and Sheila so either way he would not be someone to call to calm them down if anything he would be likely to provoke them to shoot.  He certianly want's tougher or braver or stronger than Nevill, if anythign he was a chicken sh!t smartass so he offered nothing in that regard.  So there was nothing he could bring to the table and would not even be likely to answer so if one is desperate why call him?

----

So we have no explanation of how Nevill would be in a position to make a phone call let alone why he would make a phone call instead of arming himself or trying to disarm June/Sheila let alone why he would call Jeremy instead of 999 if he did decide instead to use the phone.

The evidence proves he didn't freeze after being shot he either ran after his attacker or away from his attacker and then tried to disarm the attacker in the kitchen before being beaten unconscious so he did fight back. Someone like that would not run begging a chicken sh!t son he didn't even trust to come try to save him. 

To believe something so ridiculous there needs to be credible evidence to substantiate it.  Instead there is compelling evidence that proves this didn't happen.


Politeness is organized indifference- Paul Valéry